| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
 Posted: June 27 2011 at 05:13 |
 Warthur wrote:
That's probably fair. Holding Love Beach against ELP is like judging Lou Reed on the basis of Metal Machine Music - it completely ignores why the album exists in the first place (namely, as a means of getting the group out of their contract as quickly and as painlessly as possible). |
Aside from all, Love Beach the album is not as bad as the artwork and is not the worst example of a prog rock band gone astray either.
|
 |
Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
|
Posted: June 27 2011 at 05:08 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
There used to be a Hitler rule in flame battles on forums. The first person who compared someone to Hitler was generally considered to have lost because he took a way too easy pot shot. Posting the Love Beach album cover should be the PA equivalent. |
That's probably fair. Holding Love Beach against ELP is like judging Lou Reed on the basis of Metal Machine Music - it completely ignores why the album exists in the first place (namely, as a means of getting the group out of their contract as quickly and as painlessly as possible).
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: June 27 2011 at 04:53 |
giselle wrote:
The discussion itself is somewhat absurd. Mere semantics, as I suggested. I don’t see any real difference in our points of view, only in the form of words we use to describe them.
|
Sorry, I don't see the difference between subjectivity and objectivity as semantic. By emphasising the importance of impartiality, I am on the other hand distinguishing between subjectivity and bias/prejudice. Every subjective opinion is not necessarily biased or prejudicial which is what you seem to be driving at in the next para. A subjective opinion is based on impressions and perceptions but it is important that they be consistent with the person's general perceptions of music. "Objective within a subjective viewpoint" in other words.
giselle wrote:
No I’m not inferring that people are often unable to stand apart from their whims, I’m stating it as a fact. And I do know that for a certainty, as the views expressed are often biased totally towards personal taste and delivered as purporting to be fact, not mere opinion. That doesn’t apply to everyone, but sometimes applies to all of us, including me. I’m having to re-state what I’ve already said to make that clear. |
Eh? Any qualitiative statement about a band is an opinion. It does not become fact merely because the person omitted to say "in my opinion" because, in my opinion  ,it should not even be necessary to say so expressly each and every time. The only objective element of music is the notes and sounds and what we make it is, by implication, heavily dependent on our perceptions of music. The sooner listeners learn to live with this reality, the better.
giselle wrote:
What I called for is balanced and fair criticism, a totally different thing. I certainly would never want to see any holy cows or untouchables, that would not be healthy at all. |
In that case, please state what is it that you find it to be a biased and unfair criticism of ELP instead of firing a general dart at Prog rock Inc. Otherwise, your argument would bound to be perceived as a holy cow syndrome.
giselle wrote:
To begin to define for others how I would conduct (or hope to conduct) an objective quality analysis would be, as I mentioned several times already, discussing definitions instead of dealing with the subject at hand. I feel no need to rationalise my actions or views in depth for you or anyone else. I could write a thesis on it, but it would be boring for everyone, including me. |
So you prefer it remains a nebulous "objective" analysis that no one knows about? I am really asking you this out of curiosity because I have never seen anybody successfully argue for how the quality of a piece of music could be objectively determined. Please consider that it is not objective unless everybody agrees with the judgment. If I signed on a dotted line, I am bound by contractual obligation to perform certain acts as per the fine print and such obligation can be enforced in court. THAT is objective. Merely you satisfying yourself that you conducted the analysis without prejudice in your perception is not enough to call it objective.
giselle wrote:
Unsurprisingly, I also disagree with your view on the possibilities of analysis. I don’t personally think it’s at all impossible to make such a comprehensive and objective exercise. |
That could only be if you apply limited and inaccurate parameters. And even the weightage of parameters moves depending on the music. Take an element like dynamics. It is far more important in jazz than in heavy rock. You obviously then can't assign marks based on the level of dynamics in the same manner for a jazz group and a heavy rock band. So you'd have to get into what level of dynamics qualitatively is desirable in heavy rock. And so on...there's no end to how much you can drill down the details and find small but significant aspects to weigh...if you choose to do an objective quality analysis.
giselle wrote:
Finally, I am not even a fan of ELP. I’m simply calling for a balanced view, something I don’t believe the band receives at present. |
So, I repeat, what is the basis for that belief? And balanced view from whom, general rock music crowd or prog rock fans? Why? Without these clarifications to such a statement, it is a shot in the dark.
|
|
giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
|
Posted: June 27 2011 at 04:27 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity.
|
Reductio ad absurdium strikes again. There are, needless to say, such things as objectivity but it is very difficult to apply objective standpoints of judgment to MUSIC. As far as I know, the only thing that is objective in music is what notes are being played. Even technicality, which musicians often claim to be objective, is not necessarily an objective judgment at all. We are only making observations on what we hear of the musicians on record but it is not necessary a musician will always stretch himself to the limits of his technical facility on every song or piece of music of his.
Impartiality the way I understand it in the context of music appreciation is simply to be able to recognize flaws of something we enjoy or merits of something we don't. I love Gentle Giant's music but I recognize that in terms of emotional resonance, they are not the best. That is the kind of impartiality I am urging here. Fans cannot claim their sentiments are hurt by each and everything said about 'their' band, they should try to understand where the other person is coming from and whether he has a point.
The discussion itself is somewhat absurd. Mere semantics, as I suggested. I don’t see any real difference in our points of view, only in the form of words we use to describe them.
giselle wrote:
It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. |
And I put it to you that you are only attempting to infer here that people are unable to stand apart from their whims. You don't and cannot possibly know it to a certainty. Cut all the beating around the bush, what you are trying to say in a nutshell is ELP are one of the most influential prog rock bands so we should think twice, thrice before expressing a critical view of them. I disagree with that, I am sorry but there are no holy cows in music and especially not in rock. My views on the band are carefully considered and hopefully so are those of others commenting on this thread. Take it on its own terms or leave it.
No I’m not inferring that people are often unable to stand apart from their whims, I’m stating it as a fact. And I do know that for a certainty, as the views expressed are often biased totally towards personal taste and delivered as purporting to be fact, not mere opinion. That doesn’t apply to everyone, but sometimes applies to all of us, including me. I’m having to re-state what I’ve already said to make that clear.
From being very pedantic about the terms used in definition, you suddenly veer to drawing wild conclusions out of nothing. I never at any point stated that we shouldn’t offer any criticism of ELP, I already said that there is much to criticise. What I called for is balanced and fair criticism, a totally different thing. I certainly would never want to see any holy cows or untouchables, that would not be healthy at all. You are of course, free to speak for yourself on your thread comments, and you can have views on others, which at times we will wildly disagree on. I find your comments on this instance to be off-centre, inconsequential, and missing the point completely. You can take that or leave it as you please.
As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn't seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don't see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject.
giselle wrote:
As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject. |
Of course, it does, starting with that you haven't even defined what your objective quality analysis is all about. What are your parameters of objective quality analysis of music (and how can you possibly have one set of rules for all music appreciation is beyond me)? I'd have to first see if I agree with your chosen criteria and then also with the weights or score given by you in each. Urging people to analyse quality objectively without defining how such is analysed in music at least according to you is going nowhere. By the way, just for kicks I once tried to make an excel chart, scoring bands for compositional talent. It is almost impossible to make it a comprehensive AND completely objective exercise. |
To begin to define for others how I would conduct (or hope to conduct) an objective quality analysis would be, as I mentioned several times already, discussing definitions instead of dealing with the subject at hand. I feel no need to rationalise my actions or views in depth for you or anyone else. I could write a thesis on it, but it would be boring for everyone, including me. We both choose to see it different ways. That’s fine. I find your statements about your own impartiality and objectivity unconvincing, but it’s your right to state them and my right to disagree. Equally, I don’t much care if you agree or disagree with the parameters I choose or the definitions I use. Unsurprisingly, I also disagree with your view on the possibilities of analysis. I don’t personally think it’s at all impossible to make such a comprehensive and objective exercise.
Finally, I am not even a fan of ELP. I’m simply calling for a balanced view, something I don’t believe the band receives at present.
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: June 27 2011 at 02:29 |
giselle wrote:
Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity.
|
Reductio ad absurdium strikes again. There are, needless to say, such things as objectivity but it is very difficult to apply objective standpoints of judgment to MUSIC. As far as I know, the only thing that is objective in music is what notes are being played. Even technicality, which musicians often claim to be objective, is not necessarily an objective judgment at all. We are only making observations on what we hear of the musicians on record but it is not necessary a musician will always stretch himself to the limits of his technical facility on every song or piece of music of his.
Impartiality the way I understand it in the context of music appreciation is simply to be able to recognize flaws of something we enjoy or merits of something we don't. I love Gentle Giant's music but I recognize that in terms of emotional resonance, they are not the best. That is the kind of impartiality I am urging here. Fans cannot claim their sentiments are hurt by each and everything said about 'their' band, they should try to understand where the other person is coming from and whether he has a point.
giselle wrote:
It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. |
And I put it to you that you are only attempting to infer here that people are unable to stand apart from their whims. You don't and cannot possibly know it to a certainty. Cut all the beating around the bush, what you are trying to say in a nutshell is ELP are one of the most influential prog rock bands so we should think twice, thrice before expressing a critical view of them. I disagree with that, I am sorry but there are no holy cows in music and especially not in rock. My views on the band are carefully considered and hopefully so are those of others commenting on this thread. Take it on its own terms or leave it.
giselle wrote:
As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject. |
Of course, it does, starting with that you haven't even defined what your objective quality analysis is all about. What are your parameters of objective quality analysis of music (and how can you possibly have one set of rules for all music appreciation is beyond me)? I'd have to first see if I agree with your chosen criteria and then also with the weights or score given by you in each. Urging people to analyse quality objectively without defining how such is analysed in music at least according to you is going nowhere. By the way, just for kicks I once tried to make an excel chart, scoring bands for compositional talent. It is almost impossible to make it a comprehensive AND completely objective exercise.
|
|
giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
|
Posted: June 27 2011 at 01:59 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
That is only an impartial judgment. It still is not and cannot be an objective quality analysis because the worth of music is derived from extremely intangible factors which cannot be quantitatively qualified, hence it is not objective. And this is where the problem starts. People start to presume that critical opinion necessarily stems from dislike and is not an impartial judgment. Now, I have listened to and enjoyed ELP's classic albums over and over but if I am asked what could possibly be the reasons why they are so maligned, I am impartial enough to make a comparison with other prog rock bands and identify where, according to me, did they differ. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that or possibly you have misunderstood the premise of this thread.
|
Needless to say, I disagree. If you are correct, then there are no such things as objectivity or quality or analysis, only a perceived and allegedly distorted impartiality which somehow for you, differs from objectivity. It’s possible that in our perceived objectivity we are not entirely impartial, but even if that’s all we can hope to achieve, it’s better to stand apart from own whims as much as possible when making such judgements. As for the premise of the thread, my objective quality analysis doesn’t seem to differ much from your impartial identification. I don’t see what the problem is, unless you prefer discussing semantics to dealing with the subject.
|
|
Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 22:48 |
I know he doesn't I was teasing him. Me and Reed Lover go way back.
|
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
|
|
QuestionableScum
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Edmonton
Status: Offline
Points: 245
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:52 |
giselle wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. |
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target.
I agree with most of that, and it’s fine to point it out, but the merits of the band should be balanced against what (we think) they didn’t do well. It seems to me the criticism the band receives is unbalanced and unreasonable.
Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos  ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
Certainly not, all I’m asking for is a balance.
giselle wrote:
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair. |
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy. |
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
The problem is that any analysis of music has to be based on deep engagement with the piece, and thus unlike in other matters like inquiry into nature, objectivity cannot be gained through detachment. Detached listening cannot grasp music because it will appear as mere sound. If one listens to a piece in a disengaged or detached way the piece of music is just sound, nothing more. I am not denying that objectivity in analysis is not possible, but rather I am saying that it is difficult to conceptualize how objective analysis of music is possible. For to judge music one has to be engaged with that piece of music, and engaged judgment cannot simply analyse a piece of music based on abstract criteria, but rather must try to comprehend the piece holistically. But this comprehending requires a deeply particularized involvement with the music and thus cannot be reduced or made into a set of rules for judging music.
Edited by QuestionableScum - June 26 2011 at 20:53
|
|
brainstormer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:25 |
|
ELP played more classical covers, and their own tunes often sounded a lot like classical music.
I always thought that is what isolated them from the other major prog bands. It's true that other
lesser prog bands played classical covers, but people usually don't pick on the smaller acts.
|
|
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 20:05 |
giselle wrote:
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots. |
That is only an impartial judgment. It still is not and cannot be an objective quality analysis because the worth of music is derived from extremely intangible factors which cannot be quantitatively qualified, hence it is not objective. And this is where the problem starts. People start to presume that critical opinion necessarily stems from dislike and is not an impartial judgment. Now, I have listened to and enjoyed ELP's classic albums over and over but if I am asked what could possibly be the reasons why they are so maligned, I am impartial enough to make a comparison with other prog rock bands and identify where, according to me, did they differ. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that or possibly you have misunderstood the premise of this thread.
Edited by rogerthat - June 26 2011 at 20:05
|
|
giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 16:16 |
rogerthat wrote:
giselle wrote:
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. |
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target.
I agree with most of that, and it’s fine to point it out, but the merits of the band should be balanced against what (we think) they didn’t do well. It seems to me the criticism the band receives is unbalanced and unreasonable.
Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
Certainly not, all I’m asking for is a balance.
giselle wrote:
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair. |
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy. |
An objective quality analysis speaks for itself – a judgement made devoid of our personal tastes, likes and dislikes, and yes, there is such a thing. In that regard, you seem to be agreeing when you say that “reductive opposites of like or dislike” cause the problem. And my point about boyband fan attitudes is a generalisation, hopefully not specific to every individual - at least not on a constant basis -on Prog archives (or we really are in trouble). But it’s definitely something we all have to watch and aspire to if we are to be credible as armchair critics and not mere musical bigots.
|
|
Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 14:39 |
|
^
|
|
ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 14:17 |
Eärendil wrote:
I'm pretty neutral toward them, but their first four albums all have 4 or above. It's easy to see though how their later stuff brings outrage from prog-heads:
|
There used to be a Hitler rule in flame battles on forums. The first person who compared someone to Hitler was generally considered to have lost because he took a way too easy pot shot. Posting the Love Beach album cover should be the PA equivalent.
|
|
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 05:11 |
giselle wrote:
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight. |
I have heard a fair few concerts of the other big prog rock bands. Genesis and Yes often almost reproduced the studio versions (which has its own demerits but that's beside the point here), Gentle Giant made interesting medleys and only deviated a bit here and there from their material (and hey, they were not big league anyway), KC flew off into experimental and challenging improvisations which demanded a certain level of attention from the audience but could not be accused of showboating. ELP clearly did like to include long solos to showcase the technical skills of Emerson and Palmer (and I am not particularly convinced here, additionally, that Palmer was so much better than Bruford that he had to show off full on about it). Whether it was right or wrong to single them out is not a relevant question because in point of fact, they were but it was their propensity to show off that made them an easy target. Another thing: possessing of high technical skills is one thing and playing interesting leads on stage is another. It is not necessary that the playing of extremely capable musicians is always beyond reproach because they've also got to play something interesting to hold the attention of the audience. I am not going to come down too hard on ELP for this because drum solos in particular abounded during the 70s (though not as bad as 80s drum solos ) but I am just saying that the fact that they were high calibre musicians does not necessarily put what they played above board.
giselle wrote:
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair. |
Please do enlighten me then what is an objective "quality analysis" and is there such a thing? You can do all the wrong things and be right and do all the right things and be wrong, that is music. Also, reducing music discussion to the reductive opposites of like or dislike is what causes the problem here. It is more of a case here of one not being quite as good as another or something like that and that only from one viewpoint or one set of viewpoints. If I make some critical points about a band, that does not necessarily mean that I don't like it and perceiving that as dislike or boyband crowd behaviour is what is unhealthy.
|
|
giselle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2011
Location: Hertford
Status: Offline
Points: 466
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 04:54 |
I don't like a lot of what ELP did, but I'm uneasy with the barrage of criticism they receive for their whole body of work. To me they are one of the most important bands defining this genre. My doubts over what they did is to do with their writing and composition more than their playing, which is often of the highest calibre. Lack of taste would be another charge against them, but it must be remembered that long (and now boring) solos were de rigeur for the times, it's all very well to denigrate that now, but that's with the benefit of hindsight.
One thing we Prog fans often share with any boyband crowd is the willingness to often unfairly criticise on the basis of what we like or dislike, confusing that purely subjective judgement with quality analysis. Don't get me wrong, I've done it too. But it's wrong and unhealthy - and unfair.
|
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 03:16 |
richardh wrote:
Of course but I was just sticking to the thread topic. Prog is misunderstood/underappreciated/derided by critics a fact that seems to be blamed on ELP's artic lorries but not Yes gaint mushrooms or Gabriels daft Slipperman costume (not to mention Anderson's cod peice  ). I think its this - a lot of prog fans just don't like ELP so they become the most convenient target. Nothing to do with the real facts of the matter imo. |
No, it's simply that they were the most popular face of prog, as Garion81 put it. And also, this is subjective, but I think the other big prog rock bands just had a little bit more 'meat' in their music (making the live frills a bit easier to ignore) and with ELP you really had to pay attention to Emerson's parts followed by Palmer's and so on to appreciate it. As I said earlier, I am not concerned so much with showboating in the sense of wearing costumes or sound and light shows but showboating in the sense of playing long and redundant solos is dicey. Sometimes, it makes you God, like Led Zeppelin, and sometimes it can earn you notoriety like ELP and it's not necessary that in either case, the perception would reflect how well or not the band executed it.
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30347
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 02:18 |
rogerthat wrote:
richardh wrote:
The problem is that you have absolved Yes and Genesis from any wrong doing yet they released a couple of equally 'bloated' albums Tales From Topographic Oceans and Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.These were also targets of attack from critics. ELP can't really be blamed for igniting all the vitriol towards prog from the music press. |
Well, I would not and I do not like TFTO at all. With that said, I don't HATE either of Karn Evil or Welcome Back, so you'd be dialing the wrong number here in a prog forum. I don't see the problem with Lamb at all, it's a fantastic album with amazing diversity within the scope of one (double) album that neither of these bands could boast within the scope of a single release to my knowledge, very accessible songs by prog standards and a mastery of drama that Yes or ELP never so much as approached (again in the opinion of a partisan Genesis fan). I know the critics panned it and I know why they panned it (oooh, Gabriel is making so many mythological references, this is so boring LOLZ) but I don't see how it is any more bloated than either Quadrophenia or Wall.
|
Of course but I was just sticking to the thread topic. Prog is misunderstood/underappreciated/derided by critics a fact that seems to be blamed on ELP's artic lorries but not Yes gaint mushrooms or Gabriels daft Slipperman costume (not to mention Anderson's cod peice ). I think its this - a lot of prog fans just don't like ELP so they become the most convenient target. Nothing to do with the real facts of the matter imo.
|
|
resurrection
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 08 2010
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 254
|
Posted: June 26 2011 at 02:03 |
|
ELP do get a lot of unfair criticism considering they were one of the main players in bringing progressive rock to the masses.
|
|
The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13395
|
Posted: June 25 2011 at 23:06 |
richardh wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Personally, I don't see how anyone watching a bombastic ELP concert in the early 70s could not enjoy it. The same could be said for over-the-top concert extravangas by Alice Cooper or Pink Floyd. For sheer entertainment value, they were absolutely enjoyable, and you certainly got your money's worth, ticket-wise.
The problem lay with ELP taking pretension one step too far: the bloated triple album Welcome Back My Friends to the Show that Never Ends (even the title was bloated), followed by Works, Vol. I (not a bad album really, but it would have been far better as a single group album rather than extended foray into solo endeavors) . This is the point where critics, and particularly New York critics like Robert Christgau or Dave Marsh from the Rolling Sone magazine, began savaging ELP and other prog acts. Neither Christgau nor Marsh ever liked prog acts (actually, if you look at their reviews, they despised them), and they wielded enough influence back then to affect other critics into voicing the same, tired opinions. Thus, ELP, Yes, Tull and other progressively-minded bands got increasingly harsher reviews by 1974 -75.
These critics had an axe to grind, and a decided preference in the mid-70s for prepunk or decidedly non-progressive bands like The New York Dolls, Bruce Springsteen, David Bowie, Roxie Music (they had big erections for Brian Eno) and the punk vanguard of The Ramones, Patti Smith and The Sex Pistols. The record industry played along, and there you have it: a completely contrived attack on a certain genre of music that continues to this day.
Don't believe me? These same critics and the publisher of Rolling Stone, Jann Wenner, control much of the voting process in the supposed Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. This is why such stellar and deserving progressive bands such as Yes, Tull, King Crimson, Rush and even The Moody Blues are not in the Hall, while such wastes of vinyl like the Bee Gees, Madonna and ABBA, or bands that had very little to do with rock at all, like Run DMC, Grandmaster Flash, or Michael Jackson, are regularly inducted. Do you really think Genesis made it into the hall based on Peter Gabriel's years with the band? F*ck no. |
The problem is that you have absolved Yes and Genesis from any wrong doing yet they released a couple of equally 'bloated' albums Tales From Topographic Oceans and Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.These were also targets of attack from critics. ELP can't really be blamed for igniting all the vitriol towards prog from the music press. |
Actually, the critics didn't pan The Lamb LIes Down on Broadway - it recieved generally favorable reviews. But I will agree that Tales From the Topographic Ocean is certainly bloated and pretentious, and following the dense and obscurant Relayer, it certainly added flames to the bonfire. Yet I will say that the important critics of the time were predisposed to disliking Prog. Tull's A Passion Play was so savaged that Ian Anderson started a war with critics that lasted quite a long time (he even wrote the song "Solitaire" in reply to one critic) .
|
|
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
|
|
Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
|
Posted: June 25 2011 at 22:48 |
Garion81 wrote:
Tony R wrote:
I don't like ELP and I've been into Prog since 1973. I was deluded, who knew?
|
But Tony I know you would never deny they were an important and influential group in Progs development even to one of your favorite groups. |
That hardly means he likes it.
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Is ELP the Most Disliked Prog Band?
