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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
 Posted: August 31 2011 at 13:59 |
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 Same deal with changing to a ten star rating system. Really too late to change it. Edited by Slartibartfast - August 31 2011 at 14:00 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 12:38 |
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Louis Armstrong's Black Chicago from 1929 is far more transcendental for Jazz and Fusion than Kind of Blue, but nobody sane will add it here. Iván
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 12:00 |
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Sounds great. Except for the part where we have over 33,000 albums here. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:53 |
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I gave Kind Of Blue a four because a four star is "Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection". Doesn't say that it actually has to be prog rock.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 31 2011 at 13:59 |
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wjohnd
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: August 16 2011 Location: Scotland, UK Status: Offline Points: 327 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:39 |
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Without getting into the ins and outs of genre... I'm presuming that the reviewers here all like/ love 'prog' and that therefore their opinions might be shared by others interested in discovering great music that people of (potentially) similar taste rate very highly?
It depends what you think the list is for.. 100 albums that 'people who like prog rate very highly' or 100 albums that are prog.. given the broad definition of prog I think any attempt to exclude is going to fall foul. Simple solution would perhaps be to tag definitively non prog albums so they don't show up on the top 100 list? Some exclusions though will be obvious while others may be controversial.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 11:13 |
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I agree, as a fact we shouldn't rate Prog Related albums with 5 stars because by definition they aren't Prog, but I rated The Grand Illusion (STYX) with 5 stars because the album deserves that rating. But there should be a way to:
Iván |
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010 Location: Dorset, England Status: Offline Points: 1433 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 10:39 |
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Who is asking that?? Nobody! We're saying that (yes, Slarti) the algorithm is flawed, the system, the website, not the reviewers. Yeah, it's difficult agreeing on where to draw the line between an album that is prog enough to belong here or unrelated enough not to...... but there's difficult and then there's blindingly obvious. Nobody would call KOB a progressive rock album, whether it deserves 5 stars or 1 star. It is not even describable as fusion, which itself can have only passing resemblances to rock. But passing resemblances are justified here, for the sake of not having hundreds of music aficionados arguing about it. Kind of Blue on the other hand, does not need arguing about. Only a deaf person could possibly call it the 56th or whatever best progressive rock album in the world. All we're actually discussing on this thread is whether we care or not. And given that it's an easy enough thing to ammend, I don't see why people are choosing to leave it in there. If it was removed from the list, would anybody actually complain? Hardly. Sure enough, albums like Rubber Soul are more complex, and it would require a hell of a lot of arguing to determine whether they belong on this site or not....... so it is easier to leave them in. But Kind of Blue (along with The Magnificent Moodies, Takin' Off, Please Please Me et al...) are so obviously out of place that we can surely bump them off without any arguments? |
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JonnyM79
Forum Newbie 
Joined: November 19 2009 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 06:20 |
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I have no problem with it being here.
Firstly it has the same shot at being in the top 100 as Love Beach, early Talk-Talk or countless other albums that are not prog but made by artists that at some other time in their careers made prog. The difference is that its quality is so transcending of genre that even though it is not prog-rock, a site of people devoted to that genre still rate it so highly that it hits the list. I find it hard to imagine that anybody who buys it through seeing it on this site will think "well that's a pile'o'sh*te - sounds nothing like Wish You Were Here" Secondly anybody exploring Jazz/Fusion pretty much has to listen to it. It's so influential that trying to understand any form of Jazz without listening to this (and that includes our beloved Fusion genre) is a bit like trying to understand rock or pop without listening to The Beatles. Thirdly asking reviewers to rate based on how stricltly music conforms to the prog-rock genre (by suggesting you remove stars from this album for not being "prog-rock" enough) would penalise the unusual and innovative - exactly the opposite of what we're trying to achieve. Most people rate purely on quality and enjoyment, and rightly so. I haven't rated KOB but if I ever do it's a nailed on 5 stars. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 06:13 |
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Well, the problem here is basically the algorithm isn't it? The album is on this site because of the policy of including all an artist's albums whether or not prog. The "problem" could have been addressed if this site had set up genre tagging by album rather than by artist. Then albums like KOB could be excluded from the top 100 list, but then there's the problem of what gets excluded and what gets let in, which I'm sure we could all reach consensus on, right???
But wow, made it up to #56. Consider it an honorary member. Move on. Edited by Slartibartfast - August 31 2011 at 06:25 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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thehallway
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 13 2010 Location: Dorset, England Status: Offline Points: 1433 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 05:08 |
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No one is saying they're offended J-Man. People are just pointing out the ridiculousness of that album being in that list. I gave it four stars because I too review things regardless of what genre they are...... yes, it's a masterpiece to a lot of people. It will never be a masterpiece of progressive rock though. Not because prog is better than jazz, but because you just can't be a masterpiece of a genre when the music has f**k all to do with that genre. It's like saying that 2001: A Space Odyssey is the best Romantic Comedy film ever. I'm not possessive of the top 100.......... but as I member of this site, I think it makes us look foolish when passers by see albums like that in the list. The system is flawed, not the people giving it those high reviews. |
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Online Points: 12880 |
Posted: August 31 2011 at 02:19 |
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I see your point of course. But imo Its not the PA members fault that both ratingsystem and all inclusive-philosophy here is flawed. I'm would never give any album a lesser rating than it deserves musically. I can't relate to the idea that some slice of music deserves a higher rating than an other because it contains more rock. (personally I wouldn't give KOB a fivestar, though. There's atleast fifteen-twenty Miles albums that thrills me more. I think of it as jazz' own Citizen Kane. As in being extremely influential but not the most exiting thing ever to actually sit down and watch/listen to. Not anymore). |
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 23:49 |
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Many good points made. Kind of Blue has nothing to do with progressive rock music, or rock music in general. I am also not saying it is a masterpiece (It is). Think about someone who is trying to have the ultimate collection of prog albums; KoB is not going to be necessary in that quest.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 22:52 |
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A Kind of Blue is a great album, maybe a masterpiece, I DON'T DENY THAT But our rules are clear:  Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock musicTo be rated with 5 stars in Prog Archives needs three inclusive conditions:
Please don't change the issue, The Ninth Symphony of Beethoven is a masterpiece,.but doesn't belong here. Rubén Blades album "Maestra Vida" is better than 90% of the albums here, but it shouldn't be in Prog Archives because it's some sort of Classic Salsa. Kind of Blue is an excellent album, but doesn't belong here for millions of reasons, but most important, because Prog Archives has been created to be PROGRESSIVE ROCK STE and to help visitors understand the genre, visitors that will be mislead watching a Prog album from 1958.
There are lots of Jazz albums here and nobody is offended, as a fact I added Jean Luc Ponty, but Ponty has made Jazz that is related with Prog, I added OSIBISA who are now in Jazz Rock Fusion..I inherited a huge Jazz collection, I believe both are underrated Tohpari Etnomission from Indonesia is a FANTASTIC Jazz Fusion band that deserves to be a Top 20 even in a PROG site, because they are more than related . You can think whatever you want about progressive meanings, but the site banner clearly says it: THE ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE. JThis includes azz Rock fusion, even influential pure Jazz from the 70's or maybe late 60's may belong here, but A Kind of Blues belongs here as much as Louis Armstrong or Aretha Franklin belong here..It's Pure Jazz with no Fusion and much less related with Progressive Rock. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 30 2011 at 22:56 |
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:56 |
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The fact that this is a progressive rock website still doesn't change that I think Kind of Blue is a masterpiece. Every album I review on PA is assessed based on the quality and emotional depth of the music - prog or not. People have different interpretations of what "prog" actually means, so I stay away from rating albums based on their progressive values. If there's a jazz, metal, ambient, folk, or whatever-other-genre masterpiece on this site, I'll rate it honestly. After all, when is "proggyness" ever more important than quality? I guess that's a difference in personal reviewing preference, and if you want to review like that than I couldn't care less. I just can't believe people actually get offended that a jazz album is in their beloved top 100.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:15 |
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I honestly care, this is Prog Archives, YOUR ULTIMATE PROG ROCK RESOURCE. In Rate Your Music, Allmusic, Jazz Archives, etc, I wouldn't rate it with less than 4 stars, but this is:  A site dedicated to Prog Rock. Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 30 2011 at 20:20 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 20:10 |
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Not the only one...But it''s a NON PROG album from 1958 (When not even Pop based Rock or Psychedelia where Born), released at least 9 years before Prog was born...Do you believe this is one of the Best 100 PROGRESSIVE ROCK albums in History? I agree that Bitches Brew is RELATED to a Prog site, but it's misleading to have a 1958 album as one of the best Prog albums ever...Please, Prog didn't remotely existed when Kind of Blue was released. Do I believe Miles belong here? Not sure, but OK, Bitches Brew is important for evolution of Prog and Fusion, but we need some mechanism that stops albums that don't have the slightest relation with Prog to be considered one of the best Prog albums. Iván. Starti; Normally after protesting before added, I ignore albums that shouldn't be here (At least in my opinion), but having a 1958 non Prog album is a huge incoherence, that I believe can't be ignored. Just beware, Miles has a 1945 album with no ratings yet, but also a 1954 album (Rock wasn't fully born yet) that is getting close to 4 stars  Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 30 2011 at 20:32 |
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:55 |
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I don't care about whether or not Kind of Blue (or anything, for that matter) is in the top 100 list. I care about other people getting pissed off about Kind of Blue being in the top 100.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:48 |
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Argh, we're seriously arguing about this again?
I care about a lot of things that nobody else does, but I really don't understand caring about this. |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:22 |
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So they can't just ignore one album from the list?
 Are they too lazy to read any of the reviews that describe it as a cool jazz album? |
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: August 30 2011 at 19:08 |
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people looking for some of the best jazz-rock/fusion albums Edited by darkshade - August 30 2011 at 19:08 |
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Miles Davis - Kind of Blue
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Padraic wrote:
