Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - the importance of analog sound in prog
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedthe importance of analog sound in prog

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1617181920 38>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 09:42
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


... 
I don't see how anyone could have remixed and remastered it from ¼-inch tape - Advision studios used 16-track 2" tape and 8 track 1" tape back in 1973 - the original ¼-inch tape would have been the final stereo master used to cut the original vinyls, so you wouldn't be able to do much more than a bit of EQ and compression. Alucard Records claim the current  vinyl release is "Direct metal mastered from the original studio tapes onto 180-gram vinyl" while the CD version is "Recorded direct to CD from the original 1/4-inch studio tapes"
 
This was the scary part ... and Tom Dowd even mentions it and discusses the metal master ... but the fact that was scary was that the Dark Side of the Moon and Sgt Peppers and many other albums, were quite different and clear, compared to the American versions. I still have the DSOTM album I think ... and it is exactly the same as the "remastered" version, where you can see where the instruments were OBVIOUSLY tempered with SINCE!
I can believe this (though I don't have American and European versions of the same recording to compare), there is a degree of mythology over "British EQ" and a degree of truth in it, and the one thing that gets overlooked when comparing British and American equipment is not the EQ circuits themselves, but the nut on the console. Wink 
 
Essentialy British mastering engineers preferred to boost the effective volume by lowering the mids and boosting the bass - and that not only makes the recording sound louder (without the dreaded over-compression) but also makes it sound less "muddy" - there was no trick or secret to that - it was merely a preference.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
But it might suggest that the equipment in both countries was different and that a taped copy had to be made and brought over, from which Capitol (or whoever) messed things up ... but it was no secret, according to Frank Zappa that some of these companies did not spend any money on these things because they did not think it was important or that valuable, and all that ... which is now history.
The equipment was certainly different - as this current advertisment copy for the Behringer Xenxy 1204 mixer shows:
Quote Our neo-classic“British EQ”brings back the warmth and musicality of those ‘60s and ‘70s mega-console desks that made music history
How much that is truth and how much that is marketting twaddle is in the ears of the listner, but I think it has less to do with the equipment and more to do with the person using it (the nut on the console).
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Again, the fact, that these recordings were 2nd or 3rd generation ... doesn't bother me ... you don't need to put up huge shields, hide between the words, or paint your face black or blue, for me to know that you know your stuff, your music, and on top of it ... that you not only love it, that you also live it! ... see my parallel? The "truth" of the music still flies ... and the "remastering" only moves the 2nd violin 10 ft to the right or left (so to speak) and it gets a little reverb because of the wall (whatever!) ... and does not change the real thing behind it!
 
This was/is (also) the theme behind the other thread that someone does not want to see properly! The fact that it is "digital" today, has nothing to do with the person under it ... or whichever clothes he or she was wearing that day! It is no more important today, than yesterday ... and the only difference, might be ... that we have a better discussion and information for that time and place, than we do today's ... but even that might be our own preferences! (Even I admit that!)
I agree Pedro, and that's what I've been saying all along.
What?
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18988
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 08:41
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


... 
I don't see how anyone could have remixed and remastered it from ¼-inch tape - Advision studios used 16-track 2" tape and 8 track 1" tape back in 1973 - the original ¼-inch tape would have been the final stereo master used to cut the original vinyls, so you wouldn't be able to do much more than a bit of EQ and compression. Alucard Records claim the current  vinyl release is "Direct metal mastered from the original studio tapes onto 180-gram vinyl" while the CD version is "Recorded direct to CD from the original 1/4-inch studio tapes"
 
This was the scary part ... and Tom Dowd even mentions it and discusses the metal master ... but the fact that was scary was that the Dark Side of the Moon and Sgt Peppers and many other albums, were quite different and clear, compared to the American versions. I still have the DSOTM album I think ... and it is exactly the same as the "remastered" version, where you can see where the instruments were OBVIOUSLY tempered with SINCE!
 
But it might suggest that the equipment in both countries was different and that a taped copy had to be made and brought over, from which Capitol (or whoever) messed things up ... but it was no secret, according to Frank Zappa that some of these companies did not spend any money on these things because they did not think it was important or that valuable, and all that ... which is now history.
 
The best recordings in America in the 50's and early 60's, were done for Classical Music ... and then the artists that were involved with the movie studios, which, in general, had the only, and best recording facilities of any one else out there ... it kinda explaines why a Bobby Darin, Elvis Presley and many others had a better chance at exposure than most jazz and rock/music artists. The "media" was already controlled by these studios (Citizen Kane!!!!!!!!!) and still IS!
 
This might not have been as important in Europe's history of music and the arts, but it is in America ... and it is why the "black" thing is so big in America in many ways ... and Tom Dowd's DVD can give you some really good perspective on this ... you can easily say that all those Blue Note recordings were done on the cheapest recorders you ever saw or heard ... and a remaster there makes sense, but many others do not!
 
Again, the fact, that these recordings were 2nd or 3rd generation ... doesn't bother me ... you don't need to put up huge shields, hide between the words, or paint your face black or blue, for me to know that you know your stuff, your music, and on top of it ... that you not only love it, that you also live it! ... see my parallel? The "truth" of the music still flies ... and the "remastering" only moves the 2nd violin 10 ft to the right or left (so to speak) and it gets a little reverb because of the wall (whatever!) ... and does not change the real thing behind it!
 
This was/is (also) the theme behind the other thread that someone does not want to see properly! The fact that it is "digital" today, has nothing to do with the person under it ... or whichever clothes he or she was wearing that day! It is no more important today, than yesterday ... and the only difference, might be ... that we have a better discussion and information for that time and place, than we do today's ... but even that might be our own preferences! (Even I admit that!)


Edited by moshkito - November 12 2012 at 08:50
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7888
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 20:55
in some cases yes, but for our friend above ^ no. Because he is looking for a more dynamic punchier sound. Decent audio equipment like quality headphones or amps and speakers wil do the trick.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Aquiring the Taste View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: October 23 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 20:42
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ you need better audio equipment. :)

The opposite is in fact true, the better the audio equipment, the more obvious poor sound becomes.

Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 20:19
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:


Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

...
Some weeks ago I bought a copy of Gentle Giant - In a Glass House on 180gm vinyl & it sounds nothing like my original U K. copy. Gone are  the spacial qualities, seperation & dynamic range of the original, it is a louder  & puchier, with the rythm section pushed so far forward in the mix & the rest of instuments so crouded, that I couldn't listen to it.. On examination, in small print on the back cover, I found the reason ''Re-Mastered from the Original1/4 inch tapes 2010".
 
It was the same thing with Pink Floyd, Beatles, Rolling Stones and many others ... the American version was a copy of a copy and stunk ... and of course, the "remasters" were just like the original English pressings!
 
Money ... money ... I have yet to hear a "remaster" that is worth half its value!

The  Australopithecus afarensis responsible for this traversty is not named, which is a pitty, as I would like to introduce him to the only remaning use for this abum.


I don't see how anyone could have remixed and remastered it from ¼-inch tape - Advision studios used 16-track 2" tape and 8 track 1" tape back in 1973 - the original ¼-inch tape would have been the final stereo master used to cut the original vinyls, so you wouldn't be able to do much more than a bit of EQ and compression. Alucard Records claim the current  vinyl release is "Direct metal mastered from the original studio tapes onto 180-gram vinyl" while the CD version is "Recorded direct to CD from the original 1/4-inch studio tapes"

Edited by Dean - November 11 2012 at 20:21
What?
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7888
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 20:19
^ you need better audio equipment. :)
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Aquiring the Taste View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: October 23 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 20:09


Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

...
Some weeks ago I bought a copy of Gentle Giant - In a Glass House on 180gm vinyl & it sounds nothing like my original U K. copy. Gone are  the spacial qualities, seperation & dynamic range of the original, it is a louder  & puchier, with the rythm section pushed so far forward in the mix & the rest of instuments so crouded, that I couldn't listen to it.. On examination, in small print on the back cover, I found the reason ''Re-Mastered from the Original1/4 inch tapes 2010".
 
It was the same thing with Pink Floyd, Beatles, Rolling Stones and many others ... the American version was a copy of a copy and stunk ... and of course, the "remasters" were just like the original English pressings!
 
Money ... money ... I have yet to hear a "remaster" that is worth half its value!
[/QUOTE]

The  Australopithecus afarensis responsible for this traversty is not named, which is a pitty, as I would like to introduce him to the only remaning use for this abum.


Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18988
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 12:01
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Kick Out The Clams
 
 
 
NOOOOOO ... magnificent version of a Carpenters song ... funny too!
 
Besides, you can make a heck of Clam Chowder with it!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18988
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2012 at 12:00
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

...
Some weeks ago I bought a copy of Gentle Giant - In a Glass House on 180gm vinyl & it sounds nothing like my original U K. copy. Gone are  the spacial qualities, seperation & dynamic range of the original, it is a louder  & puchier, with the rythm section pushed so far forward in the mix & the rest of instuments so crouded, that I couldn't listen to it.. On examination, in small print on the back cover, I found the reason ''Re-Mastered from the Original1/4 inch tapes 2010".
 
It was the same thing with Pink Floyd, Beatles, Rolling Stones and many others ... the American version was a copy of a copy and stunk ... and of course, the "remasters" were just like the original English pressings!
 
Money ... money ... I have yet to hear a "remaster" that is worth half its value!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7888
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:46
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Topjukes,Good on you.. you guys are doing the right thing.  Thanks for having some integrity and going against the digital grain.  If you don't mind me asking.. did you keep it pure from tape to pressing or did you drop it into Pro Tools and then press from the 24 bit master? or maybe you don't know what the plant did?I would love to hear one of your releases.. feel free to PM me.


You are the most pro-analogue supporter on this entire website. It's nice to see that you take a firm stand in support of analogue because we live in an age where digital is widely more preferred. I am one of them as you know.

I think it depends. I can't stand with things like AAD remasters on CD and in general I like listening to the classics "as they were". I know all the static noise of my vinyl copy of Atom Heart Mother and the clean CD version sounds unreal, but if a today's band records its music being aware of what the equipment allow, it's likely that their arrangements fit well into digital. 
I agree with surrealist about adjusting the errors with the electronics, something that I had initially misunderstood, but analog or digital is a disk by disk choice. 


Right you are Mr. Octopus. It's all relative to the choice and tastes in the listener for what type of sound he or she desires. I'm a 24bit 96Khtz man myself. I just really enjoy the polished clean high res sound that this format exhibits. It also really suits my listening tastes cause I like to listen to my music really really Loud and distortion free sound is what I get with 24/96k at high volume levels. No crackle and no pop for me!!
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Topjukes View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: November 13 2009
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:35
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Topjukes,Good on you.. you guys are doing the right thing.  Thanks for having some integrity and going against the digital grain.  If you don't mind me asking.. did you keep it pure from tape to pressing or did you drop it into Pro Tools and then press from the 24 bit master? or maybe you don't know what the plant did?I would love to hear one of your releases.. feel free to PM me.

Thanks for the support!

As an example, the upcoming Big Big Train release is being pressed from 24-bit masters. The recent echolyn album was mastered at 88.2khz and sounds breathtaking. I'll basically use the best quality source I can find - currently looking at the tapes for a couple of pretty high profile releases.

I have a wish list as long as your arm of albums I'd like to see on vinyl, and this was my original aim - to see albums on vinyl which had only previously been available on CD. I've been delighted to see how quickly we've become involved with brand-new releases, and really heartened by the feedback we're getting.
www.planegroovy.com - for the music you always wanted to hear on vinyl!
Back to Top
octopus-4 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
RIO/Avant & Zeuhl, Neo, Post/Math, PSIKE

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15000
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:32
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Topjukes,Good on you.. you guys are doing the right thing.  Thanks for having some integrity and going against the digital grain.  If you don't mind me asking.. did you keep it pure from tape to pressing or did you drop it into Pro Tools and then press from the 24 bit master? or maybe you don't know what the plant did?I would love to hear one of your releases.. feel free to PM me.


You are the most pro-analogue supporter on this entire website. It's nice to see that you take a firm stand in support of analogue because we live in an age where digital is widely more preferred. I am one of them as you know.
I think it depends. I can't stand with things like AAD remasters on CD and in general I like listening to the classics "as they were". I know all the static noise of my vinyl copy of Atom Heart Mother and the clean CD version sounds unreal, but if a today's band records its music being aware of what the equipment allow, it's likely that their arrangements fit well into digital. 
I agree with surrealist about adjusting the errors with the electronics, something that I had initially misunderstood, but analog or digital is a disk by disk choice. 
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7888
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 14:14
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Topjukes,Good on you.. you guys are doing the right thing.  Thanks for having some integrity and going against the digital grain.  If you don't mind me asking.. did you keep it pure from tape to pressing or did you drop it into Pro Tools and then press from the 24 bit master? or maybe you don't know what the plant did?I would love to hear one of your releases.. feel free to PM me.


You are the most pro-analogue supporter on this entire website. It's nice to see that you take a firm stand in support of analogue because we live in an age where digital is widely more preferred. I am one of them as you know.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 12:11
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 *snip*
 
Time for me to take a break from this site.....(at least from a posting position).
 
Have a great evening/day...
I didn't re4ad it as an attack on you. He took your  comment as a  springboard point for a point of view  that I actually think is  valid.
Ouch it wasn't an attack, but if that is how it was received then that is how it was received. Sure I took exception at the "luxury" comment, but I am older than José and do not see it as a luxury, so cannot see how that is an attack.
What?
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 04:48
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 *snip*
 
Time for me to take a break from this site.....(at least from a posting position).
 
Have a great evening/day...
I didn't re4ad it as an attack on you. He took your  comment as a  springboard point for a point of view  that I actually think is  valid.


Edited by Snow Dog - November 09 2012 at 04:55
Back to Top
Aquiring the Taste View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: October 23 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 04:48
Originally posted by Topjukes Topjukes wrote:

Here at Plane Groovy we've released a number of Prog albums on heavyweight vinyl - with universally positive feedback. The really heartening aspect of this is that, having listened to our releases, people are then going back and revisiting their old vinyl collections - in a hugely positive way. This makes me very happy!

Music to my ears, may I wish you every successClap
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 04:41
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

I've never understood the quantity over quality theory, but we all have different expectations & priorities.
How do you mean? Do you mean the number of releases? If so then are you happy to let some label exec make that choice for you?
What?
Back to Top
Aquiring the Taste View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: October 23 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 68
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 09 2012 at 04:12
I've never understood the quantity over quality theory, but we all have different expectations & priorities.
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 18060
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:39
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

But I do listen to both, although having the luxury of growing up more with the older prog, of course to me that will always be the preference....and of course on vinyl Big smile
Is that a luxury? I grew up with Prog, I also grew up with the Beat explosion of the 60s and I grew up with synth pop of the 80s - I'm 55 and I'm still growing up. If just one artist is being innovative and creative in any given time period or any given era then surely that is enough, that is the real luxury, not the media you hear it on, but the artist that makes you sit up and listen.
 
Look back to 100-400 years ago and the literally thousands of classical composers that were producing scores and manuscripts for sonatas, concertos and symphonies that no one today will ever hear, even those like Louis Spohr who aren't part of the Now That's What I Call Classical Music #34 swathe of popular classics that passes for "Classical Music" now-a-days are reduced to being a side-note of passing interest to a select few. No one alive today had the "luxury" of growing up with that music, and since the only means of recording that music was by pen and ink, few will ever hear it. And it wasn't that much different 40 years ago when we had the "luxury" of only hearing the music that the likes of Tony Stratton Smith or Richard Branson decide we should hear and all those thousands of bands who failed to get a recording contract are now lost forever just because the music they were creating failed to impress one of maybe 100 people involved in signing bands to the few record labels that existed back then. And that was a crap situation regardless of how nostalgic you are or how darkly hued your rose-tinted spectacles are.
 
Now we get to hear everyone who ever made a noise that can be called music if we care to listen. That is the greatest luxury that digital recording can offer us - it removes the power from the record labels and the recording studios to dictate to us what we should listen to and what we can listen to. And only digital media can do this for us - sure a few people have the "luxury" of recording onto antique analogue equipment and then paying to have someone master that onto acetate for a limited production run of a few hundred vinyls, but for the rest of the aspiring musicians out there, (who are not as untalented or creatively vacuous as some would have us believe), digital recording, digital media and digital delivery/distribution has opened the magic box of earthly delights. And that is a luxury I will treasure for the rest of the time I spend on this planet growing up.
 
Dude....why do you feel you need to turn my post into something negative, making it sound like I wrote something negative too.
I said nothing about classical music..sure there are a gazillion things we will never read, hear or see in our lifetimes, I am not that naive about history.
I'm not gonna ramble about what might have been had there been something more accesible 40yrs ago...it is what it is, its the past. Or semi-complain because someone in the music industry decided we should not hear an artist because they did not like it, so they did not financially support them.....And you are right this has been going on for longer than 40yrs.....probably a 1,000yrs.
Again, nothing I can do about it so I have no reason to complain about it...it is what it is, I accept it.
 
You also act like I don't appreciate creativity or talent, I'm not going to detail what I have on digital on my external HD, I have zero need to please outside my home. Do you realize how much jazz is played in New Orleans clubs on a nightly basis in the French Quarter that will never grace a CD or digital file on someones laptop? Quite a bit....I know it because living in New Orleans for sometime and going back a lot (since my wife is a Cajun Coon-A$$), we go as often as we can and sit and listen to jazz.
 
I am glad that you will treasure what and how you listen to music for the rest of your life, music is a wonderful art form. But don't insinuate only you know how to do this or your way is the gospel, because that is the way your post reads.
 
I have always agreed with your comments on the technology side of how sounds come about, as I have said before that is a black and white subject, 1+1 = 2....always.
 
But I really do not understand your post above other than negativity to what someone is saying is their preference/ideas/thoughts on how music is seen.
 
Time for me to take a break from this site.....(at least from a posting position).
 
Have a great evening/day...
Back to Top
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 21:38
Topjukes,

Good on you.. you guys are doing the right thing.  Thanks for having some integrity and going against the digital grain.  If you don't mind me asking.. did you keep it pure from tape to pressing or did you drop it into Pro Tools and then press from the 24 bit master? or maybe you don't know what the plant did?

I would love to hear one of your releases..

feel free to PM me.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1617181920 38>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.227 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.