Steven Wilson, Prog heritage and legacy

^ It doesn't have to be a particular Yes track. It sure does sound like it has a Squire-esque bass riff in it (think Fragile) ... with some music that reminds me of Remedy Lane. In fact, much of that track reminds me of PoS.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - July 05 2014 at 01:45

Yes is in the first section of Luminol, Genesis in The Watchmaker. Like I said, the heavily influenced sections are kind of separate and then it goes into some pretty original sections too. It's pretty odd, come to think of it.

I'm talking about The Raven, not Wilson in general.

I hear Yes, Crimson and Genesis and I hear a good album. But like I said, it's bizarre to call TFK a pastiche and give Wilson a pass when Wilson in this album is far more closely imitating. There are original parts, but they're separate from the 'homage' parts. TFK has the originality and unoriginality blended into one entity. They created an unmistakeable sound though, whereas The Raven is unmistakeably Wilson with a few mistakable sections. I like Porcupine Tree about as much as TFK but Wilson never created his own trademark symphonic sound, so it's only natural that he fall back on the originals too much when he gets too close to the pure thing.

^Have you heard anything before 'The Raven'? Yeah, 'The Raven' was clearly a nod for 70's music (although there is a lot of post-rock and indie pop here and there), but can you find any Yes or Genesis-like music on Insurgentes or Deadwing or Storm Corrosion?

Edited by ole-the-first - July 02 2014 at 06:36

To Answer your question, yes Steven Wilson has reached his time. I find his trips down progressive memory lane tedious and his album TRTRTS completely overrated and lack luster. Perhaps it's in his execution of the material as to why it comes off so feeling so sterile. The Flaming Lips put out an album titled The Terror that is strangely similar to early Popol Vuh in it's soundscapes and it's also creepy as hell so it works for me demonstrating that going backwards is not always counter productive to making enjoyable Prog music. And let's face it, what new sounds are going to come about now? Better grab something you like while you can and enjoy it.

Edited by SteveG - July 01 2014 at 17:00

I appreciate prog that looks backwards, it just depends how well you do it. True innovation is rare. 

Progressive rock and progressive music are two different same things. One is the original fusion of older classical ideas with a newer music. Occasionally there are changes and new bands that turn up, but after a while I get the idea that "prog" most certainly means symphonic rock mainly. Remove that and where are we all?

As for SW, when I heard P Tree's Sky Moves Sideways a long time ago I thought here's a guy who wants to be Pink Floyd so much he's recorded one of their best albums. After that album P Tree became one of the greats right up to but not including The Incident. The Raven is okay, fusion oriented but I am reminded of U2's Rattle and Um (sic) where they "discovered" Americana, blues etc and thought they were so cool at this "new" thing. I think alot of this perception of new / old is that many people (but probably not on this site) do not consider music from before they were adolescents. Thus anything recorded / released before they were"alive" is "irrelevant". Unless they are heritage oriented then music may be respected.

But there it is - time. Either dismissed as past history (tautology noted). Or a proud history. Still the same thing. Plus ca change n'est pas?

However I can't help but also note that people, as the sum of their conflicts and not resolutions are a mass of contradictions (just look at the indecision, discussion and debate on the meaning of prog.) - and SW is no different. Since making his / their identity he got in touch with the 60s 70s masters and re-did some of their records.

Progressive rock means moving rock on but also remaining the same. Contradictions in music that indicate the indelible humanity involved in writing, recording, performing, hearing, absorbing, loving, hating, arguing, occasionally agreeing and well, being passionately indifferent.

Have I gone off topic? Again?

Thread title changed, make of it what you will.

Guldbamsen wrote: Hmmm I just read through the op, and he does seem a little snooty all around. I guess what it boils down to is whether Steve is making progressive music or just rehashing old ideas. Steven Wilson: Progressive or Regressive?  Perhaps? EDIT: Nah strike that. Who really needs another one of those "what is prog?" threads - even if this has become the very same. No need to encourage folks though

I vote the new title be: "Steven Wilson: Retroprog Convert?"

The discussion, now, isn't really on "progressive vs regressive," though, or "what is prog?". It's more like, "Is artistic excellence equated with proficiency at one's instrument and/or in the popularly-acknowledged parameters of music?" It's between people, all of which don't really enjoy retroprog— we're just debating why we don't enjoy it. I'm totally fine with being somewhat regressive as long as artistic expression is still in tact and am arguing that, in most retro prog, this isn't the case; Rogerthat is not okay with being regressive at all; and The Pessimist doesn't like being regressive but recognizes it as a subjective preference.

^^ That seems to be the gist, the old "progressive or regressive" argument.  I'd appreciate a title change too. As for addressing Wilson's alleged "hypocrisy", maybe a better word to capture that would be "turncoat", not quite as strong and hurtful as "hypocrite".  Just to at least be faithful to the OP's original intent, even though I disagree with it.