PA Songwriters'/Composers' Association

I quite like Julia Holter. Probably the podcast most worth checking out imo.

Found this.

Only a few artists that I like amongst all of them, but it's still a neat idea and it's kind of cool to see how bands operate even when you don't like their music.

Star_Song_Age_Less wrote: Thank you very kindly for this careful listening - Everything you say here makes sense to me and I was thinking some of it to myself while listening it over before I posted it.   (Not all, though - the speechlike quality was unconscious, and I think not appropriate now that you alerted me to it - that's exactly the sort of thing that I need to find out!).   Differences between the different verses - definitely agree.  I intended to provide some variation in the form of new layers of backing vocals and synth parts in each verse, though I never record those things until I've heard the demo about 50 times.  What do you think - would a large variation in additional tracks fit your bill, or do you think the base of it needs to be tweaked? Also agree on the strength of the "chorus" - in my head it sounds so powerful but I don't think it translated on this demo.  I'm not sure why, yet. Edit: I just realized, I forgot to mention - what you said about the intro was spot-on.  I did have an intro for this but it just wasn't working quite right for me yet so I left it out.  The intro keyboard part is minor and otherwise modified version of the verse part, and I had originally written an entire song based off that original theme (in the minor key), then scrapped almost all of it, leaving only the beginning.  Now I left that beginning out of this recording... something needs to be there, but I just don't quite have it right yet.

^^Interesting, I got "parent watching child" out of both sections in different ways - especially the part about watching someone sleep, talking about having their beginning (birth).

For the 2nd one, I see what you mean about not much happening poetically - the words are saying something, pretty literally though.  For me, where to go from here would depend so much on the music, though.  I'd love to hear these when you record them, if you are willing to share.

Star_Song_Age_Less wrote: EchoTail wrote: Polymorphia wrote: I wrote two lyrics recently. I was wondering if they weren't a little bit overwrought/melodramatic. I'm going to post it in prose form (I wrote it in prose form to practice trying to make coherent thoughts). Mainly, I don't want anybody to feel like they don't have an opinion on it. It seems sometimes people are scared away by the stanza form or it messes with the way they try to interpret the lyrics. If it's incoherent, melodramatic, whatever, I want to know. Here's the first: Hapless Victims of the Sun Look at you now, squeezing yourself small, under the cover of your eyelids. Shall we disturb them with frightening awareness of a single, fragile motion? You’ve had your beginning and will end when it’s finally complete. A house of cards on a table of entropy, every trace of you will fall away, fall away, fall away, in the cosmic shift, you fall away, fall away, to a hearse you’ll know for so long, unsought. Long unsought. Trepidation. Don’t pull away, son. I will grip you ever tighter. You know my voice well, since you were a child, playing silently in gardens. From your first breath, you were devoured in the fiery exposure. Until your last one, it seems you’ll continue to run away run away, run away, in the cosmic shift, run away, run away, to a hearse you’ll know for so long, unsought. Long unsought. In mouths of sun, I feel swallowed. I like the imagery that you are portraying through the lyrics, they are really interesting and thought provoking.  I like the fact that it is a bit melodramatic, it adds to the atmosphere of the lyrics.  It reminds me of imagery that 'The Mars Volta' use in their songs, which are quite enigmatic. Definitely interesting - if I understand right this is from the point of view of a parent knowing that their child won't live forever, and in the grand scheme of things will affect the universe very little, that their death will last much longer than their life.  If so, I really like it!  If not, I missed something and would like to know more. :)

You've got the message right. The perspective, I don't really know. Second person felt right for some reason. A bit like Thom Yorke's "Idiot, slow down" line on "The Tourist."

Star_Song_Age_Less wrote: Polymorphia wrote: And the other: Solid Ground She is my shelter. Try. My thoughts venture elsewhere. And I try. I’m tired of being awake. I pray that I could love the mother of all flesh, solid ground. She is my entrance. Try. But I am not present. And I try. I’m tired of being awake. I pray that I could love the mother of all flesh, solid ground. I am a drifter in the spaces above me. People and places pass under me without notice. Tragedies fail to reach me. Alone in my cold expanse, I fear I am scarcely human. I want to be lucid. I pray that I could love the mother of all flesh, solid ground. Another interesting one.  This one doesn't strike me as melodramatic at all, either.  I can see these lyrics bringing a good song even higher - depends on the structure of the song itself, I think.  Do you already have music to go with these or are these purely lyrics for the moment?

Reading it again (it always helps to post it), the lines that feel melodramatic are everything past "I am a drifter in the spaces above me." There's not enough happening poetically, I think, to get the tone I want. I like lyricists like Jeff Tweedy (of Wilco) who can write about heavy topics but still with an air of slyness to it. I never want these songs to go "poetically unconscious" if that makes any sense.

I do indeed have music for these, that I've been working on for a couple of years. It's just now coming together and I'm trying to finish lyrics and get a band together to play it. I've got some recordings with improvised lyrics, but I'm getting my guitar back from the shop tomorrow and will be able to record better versions with these lyrics.


Edited by Polymorphia - December 22 2014 at 00:43

Polymorphia wrote: I wrote two lyrics recently. I was wondering if they weren't a little bit overwrought/melodramatic. I'm going to post it in prose form (I wrote it in prose form to practice trying to make coherent thoughts). Mainly, I don't want anybody to feel like they don't have an opinion on it. It seems sometimes people are scared away by the stanza form or it messes with the way they try to interpret the lyrics. If it's incoherent, melodramatic, whatever, I want to know. Here's the first: Hapless Victims of the Sun Look at you now, squeezing yourself small, under the cover of your eyelids. Shall we disturb them with frightening awareness of a single, fragile motion? You’ve had your beginning and will end when it’s finally complete. A house of cards on a table of entropy, every trace of you will fall away, fall away, fall away, in the cosmic shift, you fall away, fall away, to a hearse you’ll know for so long, unsought. Long unsought. Trepidation. Don’t pull away, son. I will grip you ever tighter. You know my voice well, since you were a child, playing silently in gardens. From your first breath, you were devoured in the fiery exposure. Until your last one, it seems you’ll continue to run away run away, run away, in the cosmic shift, run away, run away, to a hearse you’ll know for so long, unsought. Long unsought. In mouths of sun, I feel swallowed.

I wrote two lyrics recently. I was wondering if they weren't a little bit overwrought/melodramatic. I'm going to post it in prose form (I wrote it in prose form to practice trying to make coherent thoughts). Mainly, I don't want anybody to feel like they don't have an opinion on it. It seems sometimes people are scared away by the stanza form or it messes with the way they try to interpret the lyrics. If it's incoherent, melodramatic, whatever, I want to know. Here's the first:

Edited by Polymorphia - December 20 2014 at 22:07

EchoTail wrote: Thank you very much for listening to the album and I am really happy that you are impressed with what you have heard! The album is pretty short, it clocks in exactly at 40 minutes (bit of luck involved in that!), I just wanted it be long enough to keep attention and not overstay its welcome.  I completely understand with what you mean by some vocals being put on the songs.  I have actually heard two sides to this aspect of my music, one side saying that vocals would be awesome with it, while others say it would not be as effective.  Since it is only me and my brother who create the music, we don't currently have an actual vocalist, even though I have thought about giving it a try in future releases. I would love it if you could review the album, you are more than welcome to! Also heard your sample, love the composition and guitar work!

Short and sweet is much better than long and wrong!  (Couldn't fight the urge to rhyme... sorry).  There are plenty of albums (and songs) out there that just go on and on.  Music is about change, and just going on in the same fashion wears thin after a while.  It's a stylistic choice.  Most of the time, prog bands I hear tend to err on the side of long.  Thus the surprise - that doesn't necessarily mean it's an unpleasant surprise.

I think if you did add vocals, it would be effective but in a very different way than it is now.  As is, you can put on the headphones and almost let this music slide by you, like it adjusts to your own mood as the listener.  It's unobtrusive.  But once you add vocals/lyrics, now you're saying something to the person who's listening - it will definitely change the nature of people's reactions to it.  I don't think it would be so unobtrusive then.  So I guess it depends on how you want your music to affect the listener.  And this is only my opinion, too.

I'll definitely get a review up there for you once it's sunk in more.

Glad you liked the sample I put up - though I think that is the first time anyone's every complemented me on my guitar work.  I am a bit sloppy. :)  Glad my hard work paid off.  Crossing my fingers that I can get the rest of the songs as polished-sounding as "Faith" is right now.

Just added a sample of my song "Faith" to the page: https://www.facebook.com/JamieKernMusic .  This one is basically done, it's a mixdown, but it hasn't been mastered.  It's probably the 2nd-most-polished one I have at the moment.  The clip at least gives you an idea for the flavor of the song.  I don't know what genre to call it, really, especially based on the structure of the entire song, which is something like ABCDmodCED... no key changes, though... and it clocks in at 4:32.

This song is my personal favorite among those I've written myself.

Kazza3 wrote: Star_Song_Age_Less wrote: So I've been working on a song for a few days that I originally wrote years ago.  I put together a rough demo.  This one's really not proggish in any way, but the thread title just says songwriters, not just prog-writers, so here it is.  I'm not ready to share this one with the world at large - I intend to remove it at some point.  But I'd welcome some constructive criticism.  It's not particularly complicated, what I'm wondering is if it emotionally does what it's supposed to do.  I know what I think, but would like to hear unbiased thoughts from other music people. Note - I'm not worried about the mix or the recording quality - just the song itself.  This was a quick home recording with terrible equipment, no preamp or anything.  I really could have used a preamp for the vocals... "Hand In the Rain" by Jamie Kern Wednesday night in the rain, driving home late See your face in the corner of my eye. Trick of light in the glass, you are long passed. Still, too  much for me.  I stop to rest. Can you hear me?  Can you hear me? All alone in the lot, hear a whisper in the dark. Feel your voice like a dream - it can't be. Can you hear me?  Can you hear me? Feel you there, listening - am I mad or dead or lost? Step outside in the storm, speak aloud of those we lost. Trembling, I reach out, full of love and hope and terrified For your hand in the rain - please be here again. When I was a child, I would hold your hand Warm and safe and kind. When you died, I realize all I did was hide. Held your hand in the rain, tears invisible and shed in vain. Standing still in the dark, I know I might not be sane. Straining ears listening for anything I'm sure is real. Act of faith in the dark - I finally can feel. When I was a child, I would hold your hand Warm and safe and kind. When you died, I realize all I did was hide - Until tonight. I held your hand - Held it one last time. Great song! I definitely think it emotionally makes sense in general. I particularly enjoy the verses, and the descent to the rich low note at the end (especially in the first verse). If it were me... I think in general, it could use a little more space (the vocals are almost non-stop, gotta give yourself a break!), a few instrumental sections- and I swear this isn't just the prog fan in me talking- just in terms of a bit more of an intro, repeating that figuration a few more times before the vocal entry, and I particularly felt it after the second "Can you hear me section", rather than going straight into a third verse, it could use a bit of room to breathe there.  On a similar note on the third verse, while I like that you use the "Can you hear me" sections beforehand and don't bring in the chorus until later on, I feel like that verse needs more variation, tension, or increasing range to the vocal melody, to avoid feeling like it's just repeating the previous verses (given how short the "Can you hear me" is). Same probably goes for the fourth if you don't want to use a bridge- as I said, I really like the verse, but you want to be careful of over-repetition. The chorus maybe is where your question on emotion comes in, while I like the contrast between short attacks of the chorus against the flowing verses, and it definitely works (reminds me of iamthemorning), somehow it doesn't quite feel strong or decisive enough to deliver on the tension built up during the verses. But that's just me, it's good, but it doesn't seem to quite get where I want it to. The transition between the end of the verse and the start of the chorus feels a little long, maybe, and I think it's mainly the second half of the chorus that seems to flow a little strangely. I like the sudden ending. One last criticism, though as I said I like the low trailing ends of the verse melodies, in some of the later verses you seem to lose vocal quality and become almost more speechlike- which could be intentional, but if so it could be more convincing. And if not, I know it's just a demo, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. But this is all nit-picking, it sounds great!

Thank you very kindly for this careful listening - Everything you say here makes sense to me and I was thinking some of it to myself while listening it over before I posted it.   (Not all, though - the speechlike quality was unconscious, and I think not appropriate now that you alerted me to it - that's exactly the sort of thing that I need to find out!). 

Differences between the different verses - definitely agree.  I intended to provide some variation in the form of new layers of backing vocals and synth parts in each verse, though I never record those things until I've heard the demo about 50 times.  What do you think - would a large variation in additional tracks fit your bill, or do you think the base of it needs to be tweaked?

Also agree on the strength of the "chorus" - in my head it sounds so powerful but I don't think it translated on this demo.  I'm not sure why, yet.

Edit: I just realized, I forgot to mention - what you said about the intro was spot-on.  I did have an intro for this but it just wasn't working quite right for me yet so I left it out.  The intro keyboard part is minor and otherwise modified version of the verse part, and I had originally written an entire song based off that original theme (in the minor key), then scrapped almost all of it, leaving only the beginning.  Now I left that beginning out of this recording... something needs to be there, but I just don't quite have it right yet.

EchoTail - New album - cool.  Will give a listen.  Though if it's out already any constructive criticism will be too late.


Edited by Star_Song_Age_Less - December 19 2014 at 02:29