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Topic ClosedBritish Proto-Prog
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Poll Question: Which of these do you prefer? (Beatles omitted)
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Svetonio View Drop Down
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 12:56
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

found another so-called proto song, certainly not helping me in liking what I still cannot tell what it is, except thinking so far all songs the notes are sharp, lack warmth, lacking bass guitar tunes etc, all very blunt and not nice clear in my opinion Ouchhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKroSJti39I
 
That style was called Freakbeat, a genre what I mentioned earlier in this thread.
By the way, Rick Davies is great as always....
 
And slightly off the topic - Kati, do you think that The Steve Miller Band would be in Prog Archives' Proto Prog section - as per PA' definition of *proto-prog*, of course -  due to their first two albums from 1968?


Edited by Svetonio - March 25 2015 at 12:57
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Points: 13338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 12:49
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

You did not understand me. I'm not saying that Armageddon not generally belong to 70s hard rock as same as e.g. Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath or BOC and that the internet sites who say so are wrong; they aren't wrong, especially not wrong in the time of multiplied tags. I just want to point out that 1) the style of that single album by Armageddon is not of a kind of hard rock which was generally played in 1975 and that the sound of the album is nicely suited to what the records dealers at that time named "proto-prog" to firm that dinstictive sound of late 60s / early 70s at their selling lists ( they did not created a new genre nor they wanted to do anything like that)  2) I mentioned Armageddon's album as an evidence that the "proto-prog" sound was still exist until mid 70s even in UK.
 
See, that's the difference between us. I understood what you were saying. I just don't accept it. Neither do I accept the tag "proto-prog" that a few record resellers decided to scribble with black magic marker on their flea market bins. That was not a defining moment or the end-all, be-all for the definition of proto-prog.
 
(...)
Of course that those ancient records dealers' lists aren't (un)Holly Bible, but PA definition of Proto Prog with The Who on that "proto" list also is not (un)Holly Bible nor the writer of PA Proto-Prog definition is (un)infallible Pope, lol.
 
The point I was making, Moses, is that nothing is set in stone. I used the words "redefine" and "reassess" because that is what has been done and what continues to happen as part of the historical record.
 
Nothing is infallible, as you inferred, yet you still hold on to some archaic (and really silly) definition like Yahweh himself slapped you upside the head with the commandment:
 
THOU SHALT NOT PUT OTHER DEFINTIONS OF PROTO-PROG BEFORE THEE!
 
But as a reasonable music listener and as a musician, I find the PA definition of "proto-prog" far more reasonable than the short-sighted and fundamentally inaccurate definition by some 70s flea-market resellers. As a person degreed in English and history, linguistically the prefix "proto" is supported far more reasonably and in historical context by PA than your flea-market resellers.
 
As a reasonable person, I cannot hold to a definition that is no longer valid or does not make sense to me, particularly when a far more reasonable and sensible definition is available.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 12:31
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Of course that those ancient records dealers' lists aren't (un)Holly Bible, but PA definition of Proto Prog with The Who on that "proto" list also is not (un)Holly Bible nor the writer of PA Proto-Prog definition is (un)infallible Pope, lol.
Simply put: if we didn't have Proto Prog section with that definition then The Who would not be listed in this site at all.

And since Iván's definition has been copied and reprinted on several other sites, his canonisation is imminent.


erm... lol.


Edited by Dean - March 25 2015 at 12:33
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 12:28
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

You did not understand me. I'm not saying that Armageddon not generally belong to 70s hard rock as same as e.g. Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath or BOC and that the internet sites who say so are wrong; they aren't wrong, especially not wrong in the time of multiplied tags. I just want to point out that 1) the style of that single album by Armageddon is not of a kind of hard rock which was generally played in 1975 and that the sound of the album is nicely suited to what the records dealers at that time named "proto-prog" to firm that dinstictive sound of late 60s / early 70s at their selling lists ( they did not created a new genre nor they wanted to do anything like that)  2) I mentioned Armageddon's album as an evidence that the "proto-prog" sound was still exist until mid 70s even in UK.
 
See, that's the difference between us. I understood what you were saying. I just don't accept it. Neither do I accept the tag "proto-prog" that a few record resellers decided to scribble with black magic marker on their flea market bins. That was not a defining moment or the end-all, be-all for the definition of proto-prog.
 
(...)
Of course that those ancient records dealers' lists aren't (un)Holly Bible, but PA definition of Proto Prog with The Who on that "proto" list also is not (un)Holly Bible nor the writer of PA Proto-Prog definition is (un)infallible Pope, lol.
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Points: 13338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 12:18
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

You did not understand me. I'm not saying that Armageddon not generally belong to 70s hard rock as same as e.g. Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath or BOC and that the internet sites who say so are wrong; they aren't wrong, especially not wrong in the time of multiplied tags. I just want to point out that 1) the style of that single album by Armageddon is not of a kind of hard rock which was generally played in 1975 and that the sound of the album is nicely suited to what the records dealers at that time named "proto-prog" to firm that dinstictive sound of late 60s / early 70s at their selling lists ( they did not created a new genre nor they wanted to do anything like that)  2) I mentioned Armageddon's album as an evidence that the "proto-prog" sound was still exist until mid 70s even in UK.
 
See, that's the difference between us. I understood what you were saying. I just don't accept it. Neither do I accept the tag "proto-prog" that a few record resellers decided to scribble with black magic marker on their flea market bins. That was not a defining moment or the end-all, be-all for the definition of proto-prog.
 
We are 40 years in the future since some amateur used-record vendors moved out of their mothers' basements and tried to sell scratched albums for a living. Musical genres, like prog or proto-prog, have long since been reassessed and redefined. The definition you are using is no longer valid, and honestly wasn't necessarily correct when the record sellers first used it. It is too restrictive, too ill-defined and it does not take things into historical context.
 
It is, in fact, not progressive. LOL
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:55
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 Oh and that song of which I posted the link as an example of proto-prog sound in my previous post is from the album released in 1975 by British "super-group" called Armageddon - already in PA as a heavy prog act LOL Hug
Which blows clean out of the water any notion of it being "Proto-Prog" just because of how it sounds to you. Such a suggestion does a disservice to the band, the memory of Keith Relf, and other heavy rock artists such as Steamhammer and Warhorse (none of whom would be listed here as Proto Prog).
 
This serves my point specifically. If one looks up Armageddon's 1975 album on any accredited musical site (even an uncreditable source like Wikipedia), Armageddon is referred to as "hard rock", "heavy metal" or "progressive rock". There is never, ever a mention of proto-prog. Ever. Never. Because the use of the modifier "proto" in any of its definitions must come prior to the actual advent of the specific genre (in this case, prog).
LOL it doesn't metter if internet sites reffered Armegeddon as a "hard rock" band; yeah, their debut (and only one) album was released in 1975 but it sounds like heavy rock (i.e. proto-prog) of 1968 / 1969 / 1970. In fact their album sounds pretty "retro" for 1975.
Also, in 70s, the term *heavy prog* was not existed.
 
Svetty, it does matter that accredited Internet music sites (not the odd blogger who is certain that Paul McCartney died in 1966), including Allmusic, RYM or even ProgArchives recognizes the term "proto-prog" as a precursor to prog. There is a general agreement regarding this across the goddamn internet. Look up every damn site you care to and see how Armageddon is defined as far as their musical approach: hard rock, Prog rock, heavy metal. Every site. It is pervasive. No one identifies proto-prog like you do, not even hippy record sellers with dusty cut-out bins anymore. They're mostly dead, thank god.
 
Historical reassessments occur all the time. We try to define things as clearly as possible. It is human nature and part of the scientific method. It is also a historiographical imperative. As far as music, every great movement was defined in hindsight. Bach and Vivaldi didn't refer to their music as "Baroque", yet music historians generally refer to the classical music between 1600-1750 as "Baroque". Even the term "classical music" was not a term Bach or Vivaldi would have used, because it wasn't considered "classical" at the time.
 
History is written in the present to define the past. All terms and genres for music were written and compiled after-the-fact. "Context" is a word you should learn, Svetty:
 
Context: the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed. 
 
Your view of proto-prog is not in context.
You did not understand me. I'm not saying that Armageddon not generally belong to 70s hard rock as same as e.g. Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath or BOC and that the internet sites who say so are wrong; they aren't wrong, especially not wrong in the time of multiplied tags. I just want to point out that 1) the style of that single album by Armageddon is not of a kind of hard rock which was generally played in 1975 and that the sound of the album is nicely suited to what the records dealers at that time named "proto-prog" to firm that dinstictive sound of late 60s / early 70s at their selling lists ( they did not created a new genre nor they wanted to do anything like that)  2) I mentioned Armageddon's album as an evidence that the "proto-prog" sound was still exist until mid 70s even in UK.

Edited by Svetonio - March 25 2015 at 12:00
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Points: 13338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:36
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

/edit: bollox- Ninja'd again Angry *I*must*type*faster*
Sorry, Dean. I have consumed way too much coffee this morning.Wink
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:15
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Also, in 70s, the term *heavy prog* was not existed.
How very *perceptive* of you, and still confusing yourself in the process I see.

Heavy Prog is a madeupism, or to be more specific it is a neologism - a freshly coined term for something that previously didn't have a name.  

Like Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog we created the term Heavy Prog after splitting out Progressive elements of Art Rock from all those arty bands that were not Progressive - and not surprisingly it is a combination of Heavy Rock (what the Americans would call Hard Rock) and Progressive Rock.

Linguistically it is called a Noun Phrase (where Prog is the original noun) with a particular meaning - it is not an adjective followed by a noun so "Heavy" is not a descriptive word, just as the word Progressive is not a used as descriptive adjective in Progressive Rock (it is NOT Rock that progresses).


/edit: bollox- Ninja'd again Angry *I*must*type*faster*


Edited by Dean - March 25 2015 at 11:18
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Points: 13338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 11:10
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 Oh and that song of which I posted the link as an example of proto-prog sound in my previous post is from the album released in 1975 by British "super-group" called Armageddon - already in PA as a heavy prog act LOL Hug
Which blows clean out of the water any notion of it being "Proto-Prog" just because of how it sounds to you. Such a suggestion does a disservice to the band, the memory of Keith Relf, and other heavy rock artists such as Steamhammer and Warhorse (none of whom would be listed here as Proto Prog).
 
This serves my point specifically. If one looks up Armageddon's 1975 album on any accredited musical site (even an uncreditable source like Wikipedia), Armageddon is referred to as "hard rock", "heavy metal" or "progressive rock". There is never, ever a mention of proto-prog. Ever. Never. Because the use of the modifier "proto" in any of its definitions must come prior to the actual advent of the specific genre (in this case, prog).
LOL it doesn't metter if internet sites reffered Armegeddon as a "hard rock" band; yeah, their debut (and only one) album was released in 1975 but it sounds like heavy rock (i.e. proto-prog) of 1968 / 1969 / 1970. In fact their album sounds pretty "retro" for 1975.
Also, in 70s, the term *heavy prog* was not existed.
 
Svetty, it does matter that accredited Internet music sites (not the odd blogger who is certain that Paul McCartney died in 1966), including Allmusic, RYM or even ProgArchives recognizes the term "proto-prog" as a precursor to prog. There is a general agreement regarding this across the goddamn internet. Look up every damn site you care to and see how Armageddon is defined as far as their musical approach: hard rock, Prog rock, heavy metal. Every site. It is pervasive. No one identifies proto-prog like you do, not even hippy record sellers with dusty cut-out bins anymore. They're mostly dead, thank god.
 
Historical reassessments occur all the time. We try to define things as clearly as possible. It is human nature and part of the scientific method. It is also a historiographical imperative. As far as music, every great movement was defined in hindsight. Bach and Vivaldi didn't refer to their music as "Baroque", yet music historians generally refer to the classical music between 1600-1750 as "Baroque". Even the term "classical music" was not a term Bach or Vivaldi would have used, because it wasn't considered "classical" at the time.
 
History is written in the present to define the past. All terms and genres for music were written and compiled after-the-fact. "Context" is a word you should learn, Svetty:
 
Context: the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed. 
 
Your view of proto-prog is not in context.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:57
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

It just a term for distinctive sound, as same as symphonic rock doesn't meant a symphonic orchestra that play along with a rock band...
Actually that's not completely correct either. 

Like it or not, Symphonic Rock is not a distinctive sound. At best you can call it an approach


There are many orchestral albums of symphonic (and philharmonic) orchestra's playing Rock and Pop tunes that are called symphonic rock and there are examples of rock bands playing with an orchestra that are also called symphonic rock. There also exists Rock bands that play rock versions of classical peices that are also known as Symphonic Rock and there are rock bands who create symphonic rock that are not Progressive Rock bands just as there are Symphonic Metal bands that are not Progressive Metal. We purposely called the subgenre here Symphonic Prog to avoid such confusion. 

This is why Ivan and his team does not accept every band suggested to them.

Wikipedia has recently changed its Symphonic Rock page so that it refers specifically to a subgenre of Progressive Rock - I believe this to be an over-reaction and a mistake, but with all under-damped second harmonic functions this will eventually settle upon a less one-sided definition. Amusingly the ten identifiers that Wikipedia lists as attributes of Symphonic Rock are "optimistic" at best (i.e. they're wrong).
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Points: 13338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:40
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Yea, maybe the word "proto" was used wrongly, but again - "proto-prog" doesn't mean something like proto-priest i.e. the student of theology who will become a priest, lol. It's not a child-prog which is not growed up yet. It just a term for distinctive sound, as same as symphonic rock doesn't meant a symphonic orchestra that play along with a rock band...
 
What came "before", Svetty, what came before. Like Indo-European languages all come from a Proto-Indo-European precursor. Proto means the same in linguistics as it does for any other field of study, like genetics and, not surprisingly, music.
 
There is a term "proto-punk" which denoted bands from the 60s and early 70s that influenced punk (not surprisingly, there is also a term "post-punk" that defines bands that were influenced by the punk movement).
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:36
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am fascinated by the word Proto, it's rare not to find a word which is not derived from Greek or Latin. This is partly due to why I could not understand what Proto Prog meant.
Erm... Proto is of Greek derivation - as in Prototype, Protoplasm and Proto-human. In literal terms it means "first" or "earliest" but is when used as a prefix it is generally accepted to mean "what came before"

Once again Svetonio gets it wrong.LOL


/edit: damn, Ninja'd by Greg LOL


Edited by Dean - March 25 2015 at 10:37
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Points: 13338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:30
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am fascinated by the word Proto, it's rare not to find a word which is not derived from Greek or Latin. This is partly due to why I could not understand what Proto Prog meant.
 
From Ancient Greek πρωτο- (prōto-), combination form of πρῶτος (prôtos, “first”), superlative of πρό (pró, “before”).
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:14
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

I am fascinated by the word Proto, it's rare not to find a word which is not derived from Greek or Latin. This is partly due to why I could not understand what Proto Prog meant.
Yea, maybe the word "proto" was used wrongly, but again - "proto-prog" doesn't mean something like proto-priest i.e. the student of theology who will become a priest, lol. It's not a child-prog which is not growed up yet. It just a term for distinctive sound, as same as symphonic rock doesn't meant a symphonic orchestra that play along with a rock band...
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 10:05
I am fascinated by the word Proto, it's rare not to find a word which is not derived from Greek or Latin. This is partly due to why I could not understand what Proto Prog meant.
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Never got into Deep Purple or Arthur Brown. The Who it is.
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 09:56
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

 
Dean, I did not say that those bands are what I perceive as prog, I posted specific tracks which some have the most continuous amazing changes and build ups, again for instance Salisbury by Uriah Heep I love that track and they only ever performed this live 3 times during David Byron and Ken Hensley era. That was not my indication to what I think prog music is, I am aware but I don't care what it means, accept as a tool to guide me to what I seem to prefer to listen which mostly is classified as prog but not all prog however when I do like it I can listen and replay it 24/7 nonstop too.  The tracks not bands parse was to give you an indication within those known bands, the music I prefer. Hug
Never said you did. You have hold of the wrong end of the stick Sonia. Wink
damn Unhappy bah again? This always happens to me. OuchHug
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 09:53
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

 
Dean, I did not say that those bands are what I perceive as prog, I posted specific tracks which some have the most continuous amazing changes and build ups, again for instance Salisbury by Uriah Heep I love that track and they only ever performed this live 3 times during David Byron and Ken Hensley era. That was not my indication to what I think prog music is, I am aware but I don't care what it means, accept as a tool to guide me to what I seem to prefer to listen which mostly is classified as prog but not all prog however when I do like it I can listen and replay it 24/7 nonstop too.  The tracks not bands parse was to give you an indication within those known bands, the music I prefer. Hug
Never said you did. You have hold of the wrong end of the stick Sonia. Wink
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 09:51
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

 Oh and that song of which I posted the link as an example of proto-prog sound in my previous post is from the album released in 1975 by British "super-group" called Armageddon - already in PA as a heavy prog act LOL Hug
Which blows clean out of the water any notion of it being "Proto-Prog" just because of how it sounds to you. Such a suggestion does a disservice to the band, the memory of Keith Relf, and other heavy rock artists such as Steamhammer and Warhorse (none of whom would be listed here as Proto Prog).
 
This serves my point specifically. If one looks up Armageddon's 1975 album on any accredited musical site (even an uncreditable source like Wikipedia), Armageddon is referred to as "hard rock", "heavy metal" or "progressive rock". There is never, ever a mention of proto-prog. Ever. Never. Because the use of the modifier "proto" in any of its definitions must come prior to the actual advent of the specific genre (in this case, prog).
LOL it doesn't metter if internet sites reffered Armegeddon as a "hard rock" band; yeah, their debut (and only one) album was released in 1975 but it sounds like heavy rock (i.e. proto-prog) of 1968 / 1969 / 1970. In fact their album sounds pretty "retro" for 1975.
Also, in 70s, the term *heavy prog* was not existed.


Edited by Svetonio - March 25 2015 at 09:56
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Points: 6253 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2015 at 09:50
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

You both made my perception of proto prog zero in what it possibly might be. Confused I'll ignore that term and think it's anything without orchestration plus warm tunes. Big smile
You are being too literal and need to be more conceptual. 

I cannot give you a definitive description of what Proto-Prog sounds like any more than you can give me a definitive description of what Progressive Rock sounds like. It's like trying to define what "Art" is - it is one of those Pythonesque "I don't know what it is but I can recognise it" type things.

One important thing to think about that is going to melt your mind is this: there is no such thing as a Proto-Prog band or artist. All the bands that are called "Proto Prog" (by either definition) made music that could (and is) classified elsewhere under "real" musicological subgenres. No one in their right mind would call The Beatles, Deep Purple or The Doors Proto-Prog bands, and no band since that time was ever formed with the idea of being a "Proto Prog" band. It is a classification not a musical genre.



You define Prog by what you recognise to be Prog, and you do that by listing all those bands you consider to be Prog even when there are no musical similarity between them. I cannot define what makes a band Progressive Rock but I can point to Floyd, Yes, ELP, Tull, Crimson and hundreds of other unrelated bands and say "they are Prog", (even when *some* of the albums they released were not Prog).

The same "issue" exists with most of our subgenres - how do you define the "sound" of Symphonic Prog or Eclectic Prog when none of the artists in those subs sound the same? Well, you can't - all you can do is point to Yes, Genesis and Camel and say "It sounds like that" or to Crimson, Gentle Giant and VdGG and say "It sounds like that".

Unfortunately we cannot quite do that here with Proto-Prog because not all the bands that created Proto Prog  type albums reside in the one PA category. As I said, there is no such animal as a Proto Prog band - just bands that made albums or recorded songs that can be thought of as precursors to Progressive Rock. But we can list some albums and tracks that fit the bill and point out the artists that made them.  So we can point to *some* of the albums by *all* the bands we have listed in Proto Prog section and *some* of the albums of *some* bands listed in other subgenres and say "Those are Proto Prog".



With all due respect to "Svetonio" (well, as much respect as I can muster), he has given a very definitive description of just one aspect of what we here at the PA would consider to be Proto Progressive Rock and no doubt as I type this he is writing yet another aggressively emphatic reply to you stressing this again. He is not wrong - that narrow definition exists in the world of buying and selling old vinyl just as the term "desirable residential area" exists in the vocabulary of the Real Estate Agent, but it is not a definition that works for the PA or in this Poll.


 
Dean, I did not say that those bands are what I perceive as prog, I posted specific tracks which some have the most continuous amazing changes and build ups, again for instance Salisbury by Uriah Heep I love that track and they only ever performed this live 3 times during David Byron and Ken Hensley era. That was not my indication to what I think prog music is, I am aware but I don't care what it means, accept as a tool to guide me to what I seem to prefer to listen which mostly is classified as prog but not all prog however when I do like it I can listen and replay it 24/7 nonstop too.  The tracks not bands parse was to give you an indication within those known bands, the music I prefer. Hug
 
I know what is perceived as prog music. Wink I believe Big smile


Edited by Kati - March 25 2015 at 09:54
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