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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: April 03 2015 at 04:21 |
 Kati wrote:
Kati wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now.  |
Erm... no he wasn't. He was a Tengrist who practised religious tolerance. The Mongolians converted to Islam 200 years after his death.
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Dean you are another silly billy, although Genghis Khan practiced Shamanism, most of his advisors were Muslim, he in a way was a believer too, as a Muslim believer.. |
Nope, he was most inquisitive although not converted to islam he studied the whole al Quran Islam. Also his advisers were Muslims at the time thus 200 years prior to your belief, this alone is not correct  advising him.  Genghis Khan's grandson Berke is who officially converted to Islam. Big hug to you, Dean |
That doesn't make him or the Mongolian nation muslim. He was a tengrist (a form of buddhism), and yes, he did have muslim advisors, just has he had christian, taoist and buddist advisors.
Edited by Dean - April 03 2015 at 04:27
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What?
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: April 03 2015 at 04:13 |
Kati wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now. |
Erm... no he wasn't. He was a Tengrist who practised religious tolerance. The Mongolians converted to Islam 200 years after his death.
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Dean you are another silly billy, although Genghis Khan practiced Shamanism, most of his advisors were Muslim, he in a way was a believer too, as a Muslim believer.. |
Wrong! Genghis Khan and his warriors were METALHEADS! At least, that's what I understood from watching the Bad News documentary...
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 03 2015 at 04:03 |
Kati wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now. |
Erm... no he wasn't. He was a Tengrist who practised religious tolerance. The Mongolians converted to Islam 200 years after his death.
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Dean you are another silly billy, although Genghis Khan practiced Shamanism, most of his advisors were Muslim, he in a way was a believer too, as a Muslim believer.. |
Nope, he was most inquisitive although not converted to islam he studied the whole al Quran Islam. Also his advisers were Muslims at the time thus 200 years prior to your belief, this alone is not correct advising him. Genghis Khan's grandson Berke is who officially converted to Islam. Big hug to you, Dean
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 03 2015 at 03:49 |
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now. |
Erm... no he wasn't. He was a Tengrist who practised religious tolerance. The Mongolians converted to Islam 200 years after his death.
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Dean you are another silly billy, although Genghis Khan practiced Shamanism, most of his advisors were Muslim, he in a way was a believer too, as a Muslim believer..
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 03 2015 at 03:43 |
Kati wrote:
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now. |
Erm... no he wasn't. He was a Tengrist who practised religious tolerance. The Mongolians converted to Islam 200 years after his death.
Edited by Dean - April 03 2015 at 03:43
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What?
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 03 2015 at 03:27 |
Kati wrote:
moshkito wrote:
desistindo wrote:
I wonder why in the metal world every year you see a dozen os albums "praise as wonderful" while in the prog scene is hard to find the same sense of expectation. By which means would you attribute that?
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I don't know ... I'm not sure there is a ready answer ... but I tend to lean towards the thought that Genghis Khan was a Venusian Buddhist and his politics were Plutonian Crap!
I kinda think that progressive, going back to the early 1970's took such an incredible lambasting in the press ... I mean even Tangerine Dream was called "washing machine music" ... which ought to tell you what that arsenichole was listening to stoned ... certainly not Tangerine Dream .... and the rock press, for the last 45 years has little appreciation for the work itself, and a lot of appreciation for anything else that is hip and cult or a FAD.
In many ways, some of the folks in metal, are not silly and naive and musically, many of them are well disciplined enough and taught that they do not need your opinion to create their own music, and this was missing in the early days. The system then, was more about the record companies and "someone else", and it made you weary and leery and less able to give in to what the big money folks wanted. Today, things are different enough that a band can make a website, sell their CD's and not give a darn about a record company or a magazine, and still sell stuff ... and of course, by the time they sell a million, most of those magazines that ignored you now think you are a darling, and want you on their cover because you SELL.
Early KC, is a good example ... you realize that these folks only had "themselves" to go by? This is not easy, and needs a very strong internal constitution all around to be able to get that far ... and be able to take it that extra step to nail it down! I think that YES also tried, and ran into a brick wall after the incredible assault of mean spirited folks that only wanted another hit for radio! And it still happens here on this board. No respect, care, or appreciation for the work itself ...
I can look at Dream Theater, and see a band that decided a long time ago, that what they did was OK, if they stuck to their work and their ability, and made sure they were rehearsed enough that they could still do it on the stage. I think that some bands hurt themselves in this area, but in "metal" this is a lot less of a problem, not to mention that the equipment used these days is far easier to control than 40 years ago. Synthesizers were not easy to control (witness Tangerine Dream and the countless live albums in the early days and how different the pieces were), and it made a difference. And maybe this was Rick Wakeman's complaint about TFTO ... it was hard to play it live again, and a massive drain, that took away from his having fun after the show with the girls! Today, it is not an issue and can be done from one workstation alone!
I think we have to be careful in these comparisons ... we're comparing a Lincoln Continental or a Bentley to a Model T ... and that is not exactly a good comparison at all ... and the comments come out very poorly designed or thought out. A professor in college would have told you to go home and re-consider your premise, and I would not wish to discourage you with an F for a grade ... you see the problem now? |
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now. |
However he certainly was tolerant of all religion's, even so he was one of the most cruel warlords too to date. 
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 03 2015 at 03:18 |
moshkito wrote:
desistindo wrote:
I wonder why in the metal world every year you see a dozen os albums "praise as wonderful" while in the prog scene is hard to find the same sense of expectation. By which means would you attribute that?
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I don't know ... I'm not sure there is a ready answer ... but I tend to lean towards the thought that Genghis Khan was a Venusian Buddhist and his politics were Plutonian Crap!
I kinda think that progressive, going back to the early 1970's took such an incredible lambasting in the press ... I mean even Tangerine Dream was called "washing machine music" ... which ought to tell you what that arsenichole was listening to stoned ... certainly not Tangerine Dream .... and the rock press, for the last 45 years has little appreciation for the work itself, and a lot of appreciation for anything else that is hip and cult or a FAD.
In many ways, some of the folks in metal, are not silly and naive and musically, many of them are well disciplined enough and taught that they do not need your opinion to create their own music, and this was missing in the early days. The system then, was more about the record companies and "someone else", and it made you weary and leery and less able to give in to what the big money folks wanted. Today, things are different enough that a band can make a website, sell their CD's and not give a darn about a record company or a magazine, and still sell stuff ... and of course, by the time they sell a million, most of those magazines that ignored you now think you are a darling, and want you on their cover because you SELL.
Early KC, is a good example ... you realize that these folks only had "themselves" to go by? This is not easy, and needs a very strong internal constitution all around to be able to get that far ... and be able to take it that extra step to nail it down! I think that YES also tried, and ran into a brick wall after the incredible assault of mean spirited folks that only wanted another hit for radio! And it still happens here on this board. No respect, care, or appreciation for the work itself ...
I can look at Dream Theater, and see a band that decided a long time ago, that what they did was OK, if they stuck to their work and their ability, and made sure they were rehearsed enough that they could still do it on the stage. I think that some bands hurt themselves in this area, but in "metal" this is a lot less of a problem, not to mention that the equipment used these days is far easier to control than 40 years ago. Synthesizers were not easy to control (witness Tangerine Dream and the countless live albums in the early days and how different the pieces were), and it made a difference. And maybe this was Rick Wakeman's complaint about TFTO ... it was hard to play it live again, and a massive drain, that took away from his having fun after the show with the girls! Today, it is not an issue and can be done from one workstation alone!
I think we have to be careful in these comparisons ... we're comparing a Lincoln Continental or a Bentley to a Model T ... and that is not exactly a good comparison at all ... and the comments come out very poorly designed or thought out. A professor in college would have told you to go home and re-consider your premise, and I would not wish to discourage you with an F for a grade ... you see the problem now? |
Moshkito, Now you are being very silly, Genghis Khan and the Mongols were Muslims, this is a fact. You are being very naughty now.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 23:47 |
Davesax1965 wrote:
Hi folks, no, I can confirm I've told the admins that I have left the forum and will not be posting here again. This is absolutely my last post.
Simply put, I honestly do not think that heavy metal threads on a prog rock forum are appropriate. Obviously some people are going to have contrary views - to say the least - but I was under the impression that I'd joined a prog rock forum, as the title suggests. There are plenty of other heavy metal forums on the net. Should I go on one of them and talk about Genesis, I would expect a similar response. And deservedly so.
Not a case of me throwing Teddy out of the pram or leaving due to one thread, it's a combination of several factors. I came here to talk about prog rock with likeminded people.
As a PS, I do agree with Dean's comments in his last post - in the main - but I wasn't referring to musical complexity but musical *worth*.
All the best Dave
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Dave I am sorry to see you go, at the end it's up to you of course. To be fair a lot of times many do not agree with other people's taste or point of view, this however does not mean you or who might disagree is right or wrong. At the end of the day, it's you who decided to leave and not due to anyone else. I hope you decide sometime later to return. Hug,
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010
Location: Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 6253
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 23:38 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
Dean wrote:
Kati wrote:
I am all for the main topic to continue, however considering that I am a nincompoop and a happy one I might add, besides stars etc, I still have no idea what Indus means or stands for on here?  Group hug |
As two people have already said: it's "<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Indus try" - the thread title got truncated to 50 characters when David corrected the spelleng misteak - probably because he was using his phone to access the forum.  </span> |
Yep, right on the money Dean (he says still using his useless phone).
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Aww, Heston Blumenthal, I am sorry I missed your reply you see I have an excuse for this, it's called being a" nincompoopy|, you see  ha!  big hug to you, Guldbamsen
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 17:39 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I remember reading something on a blog about how you could culturally divide the white working class in the United States into those who listen to country & western, and those who listen to classic rock. Actually, maybe it's something about how Hank Williams III said that he was trying to bridge that cultural gap with his music?
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I say this tends to be true (with some overlap between the two groups) except in big cities, where pop and mainstream rap are still pretty popular.
Guldbamsen wrote:
Polymorphia wrote:
70s prog is somewhat popular here
in the southern US as a subset of classic rock. Everybody and their
teenage son listens to Zeppelin, Sabbath, AC/DC, the Stones, The Who,
but also Kansas, ELP, Yes, Floyd, and others. That perhaps because many
here are working class. A lot of the male population in my state
have manual labor jobs or drive trucks or just have jobs where they have
a lot of time to listen to music. Most of them stick with what they're
familiar with, but branch out (to an extent) because they run out of
material to listen to. On top of that, one of the most popular stations
around here is a classic rock station which plays all the artists
mentioned. Of course, it's just the more popular artists, and few of
them have interest in prog in and of itself. Many of them are just stuck
in the 70s themselves and refuse to listen to modern music. And then
when they used to hear Three Days Grace or Nickelback on another rock
channel they'd say "You know, these guys are actually pretty good."  I live in a weird place.
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Me too...and I wouldn't have it any other way (maybe
I'd like it to be a little weirder but hey). Sounds like an ok radio
station though - far better than the sh*te they're dishing out here in
the northern part of DK. Yikes! Something like a mix between country
western music and a little thing called Dansk Top, which just stands for
safe plasticy singalong-songs played by musicians without any sign of
imagination. The younger generation tends to go for the top 40 or
whatever is playing at the club.
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It used to be the only station I listened to until I discovered the college radio station here which is generally a balanced mix between good and horrendous material. Country/western + safe and plasticy sounds like mainstream country these days. They're even starting to mix in dance elements.
Edited by Polymorphia - April 02 2015 at 17:41
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23179
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 13:45 |
Polymorphia wrote:
70s prog is somewhat popular here in the southern US as a subset of classic rock. Everybody and their teenage son listens to Zeppelin, Sabbath, AC/DC, the Stones, The Who, but also Kansas, ELP, Yes, Floyd, and others. That perhaps because many here are working class. A lot of the male population in my state have manual labor jobs or drive trucks or just have jobs where they have a lot of time to listen to music. Most of them stick with what they're familiar with, but branch out (to an extent) because they run out of material to listen to. On top of that, one of the most popular stations around here is a classic rock station which plays all the artists mentioned. Of course, it's just the more popular artists, and few of them have interest in prog in and of itself. Many of them are just stuck in the 70s themselves and refuse to listen to modern music. And then when they used to hear Three Days Grace or Nickelback on another rock channel they'd say "You know, these guys are actually pretty good."  I live in a weird place.
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Me too...and I wouldn't have it any other way (maybe I'd like it to be a little weirder but hey). Sounds like an ok radio station though - far better than the sh*te they're dishing out here in the northern part of DK. Yikes! Something like a mix between country western music and a little thing called Dansk Top, which just stands for safe plasticy singalong-songs played by musicians without any sign of imagination. The younger generation tends to go for the top 40 or whatever is playing at the club.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 13:38 |
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I remember reading something on a blog about how you could culturally divide the white working class in the United States into those who listen to country & western, and those who listen to classic rock. Actually, maybe it's something about how Hank Williams III said that he was trying to bridge that cultural gap with his music?
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 13:10 |
70s prog is somewhat popular here in the southern US as a subset of classic rock. Everybody and their teenage son listens to Zeppelin, Sabbath, AC/DC, the Stones, The Who, but also Kansas, ELP, Yes, Floyd, and others. That perhaps because many here are working class. A lot of the male population in my state have manual labor jobs or drive trucks or just have jobs where they have a lot of time to listen to music. Most of them stick with what they're familiar with, but branch out (to an extent) because they run out of material to listen to. On top of that, one of the most popular stations around here is a classic rock station which plays all the artists mentioned. Of course, it's just the more popular artists, and few of them have interest in prog in and of itself. Many of them are just stuck in the 70s themselves and refuse to listen to modern music. And then when they used to hear Three Days Grace or Nickelback on another rock channel they'd say "You know, these guys are actually pretty good." I live in a weird place.
Edited by Polymorphia - April 02 2015 at 13:11
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 5898
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 12:38 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
I enjoyed your post and agreed with most of it but contemporary metal as a vicarious 'modern folk music' I just don't buy - it's too esoteric/niche for that demographic. 'Modern folk music' is what has been assimilated into the popular consciousness from the Beatles, Kinks, Stones, Who etc
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Probably depends on your geographic location. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, here in Continental Europe and Scandinavia in particular even the more extreme metal subgenres have a lot of mainstream crossover popularity. Same situation in some Latin American and Asian countries. I also think people here overestimate how stigmatized progressive rock is by the general public, but then again that might be the same distorting effect at work since I think the genre's always been more popular in Continental Europe than the UK/US. I have no idea as to the rest of the world, actually.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 11:40 |
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I wonder why I keep seeing prog CDs in Love's Truck Stop.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 11:35 |
SteveG wrote:
Why do some member's (not all, naturally) seemingly disregard the fact that Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult, and other Metal crossover groups, are listed in PA, along with a myriad of Progressive and Tech Metal groups? And yet, have a condescending attitude toward Metal. This seems terribly myopic and silly to me. Time for the Metal crowd, from Crossover to Prog Metal fans, to flood PA with relevant Metal album reviews in a symbolic revolt! I'm already getting ready by listening to my copy of BOC's 1975 live album On Your Feet or On Your Knees! Viva la revolution!
Besides, it's a great album to listen to without a staging faux protest. |
 Circa 1974, Fripp wanted to make a heavy metal album when he put together Red and felt Bruford's drumming didn't do justice to that idea. Merely because some people may go even to the extent of boycotting a forum on account of metal discussion does not change the fact that even back in the glorious 70s, the mighty crimson king himself appeared to have paid a lot of attention to metal. One More Red Nightmare even has the Warpigs riff tucked in nicely underneath the languid saxophone.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 11:32 |
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^Good point Captain P.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008
Location: Là, sui monti.
Status: Offline
Points: 10841
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 11:28 |
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^It's even strange nowadays to see that kind of attitude from the "Prog fans" when you realise that some Jazz musicians seem to be genuinely interestend into Metal (at least, some bands like Meshuggah or Tool).
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 11:22 |
Why do some member's (not all, naturally) seemingly disregard the fact that Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult, and other Metal crossover groups, are listed in PA, along with a myriad of Progressive and Tech Metal groups? And yet, have a condescending attitude toward Metal. This seems terribly myopic and silly to me. Time for the Metal crowd, from Crossover to Prog Metal fans, to flood PA with relevant Metal album reviews in a symbolic revolt! I'm already getting ready by listening to my copy of BOC's 1975 live album On Your Feet or On Your Knees! Viva la revolution!
Besides, it's a great album to listen to without a staging faux protest.
Edited by SteveG - April 02 2015 at 11:25
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: April 02 2015 at 08:48 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
- the contemporary metal scene functions as a sort of "modern folk music". Which is something you can't really say about progressive rock as a whole.
Does that make any sense? I've slept like four hours last night as a result of being at a basement concert with a handful of local punk/metal groups.
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I enjoyed your post and agreed with most of it but contemporary metal as a vicarious 'modern folk music' I just don't buy - it's too esoteric/niche for that demographic. 'Modern folk music' is what has been assimilated into the popular consciousness from the Beatles, Kinks, Stones, Who etc
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Why isn't prog as successful as metal as an indus
