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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 11:54
Punk in the UK was a combination of a number of factors :-
1) Disenfranchised youth with poor economic situation in the UK in the late 70's.
2) Rock music not connecting with the youth, getting more corporate and safe
3) Malcolm McClaren seeing the opportunity to market New York Dolls & Television style bands in the UK
4) Popular music at the time being disco and extremely plastic
5) Opportunity for the punk 'look' to be a fashion fad with the emphasis on being different.

Once it got mainstream media on board very few people who dressed as punks actually embraced the ethos that kicked off the movement. 

Still a bunch of good bands came out of the movement.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 11:08
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I see that this thread is devolving into another 'punk killed prog' debate of which I'm to blame because of the context of my initial post. That being said, I'm sill curious as to why punk started and took off. Any opinions?

Hmm, I was at school when punk took off. A kid in my class who was into classical and opera went crazy for punk practically overnight, but I really don't know why. Perhaps he was trying to be trendy?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 10:33
I see that this thread is devolving into another 'punk killed prog' debate of which I'm to blame because of the context of my initial post. That being said, I'm sill curious as to why punk started and took off. Any opinions?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 10:03
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
 
Naaaah... That's like saying CDs killed vinyls : totally inaccurate >> vinyls were killed by cassettes (portability reasons: ghetto blaster, walkman), which in turned were killed by the CD (especially once the discman came in)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
Prog committed suicide by getting fat, old, tired, spoiled, uninspired and often ridiculous by 78Tongue
 
 
Only the famous prog bands did that though...

The Rock in Opposition Movement, and a few bands like Islands and Cathedral were just as amazing as ever in the late 70s!
 
Let's face it, who knew of those RIO bands back then? a gew hundreds worldwide?? probably not even that much.
Between their birth and disbandement in the mid-80's, UZ and Présent played roughly 25 concerts throughout all  those years... They've played twice that much since reforming in the later 90's.
Not sue Aksak played that much, despite FF and CC's presence for the second album.
 
Etron Fou , Art Bears and Stormy Six might have played more gigs, because they sang... and that attracts a fairly different crowd.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 09:22
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
 
Naaaah... That's like saying CDs killed vinyls : totally inaccurate >> vinyls were killed by cassettes (portability reasons: ghetto blaster, walkman), which in turned were killed by the CD (especially once the discman came in)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
Prog committed suicide by getting fat, old, tired, spoiled, uninspired and often ridiculous by 78Tongue
 
 

Only the famous prog bands did that though...

The Rock in Opposition Movement, and a few bands like Islands and Cathedral were just as amazing as ever in the late 70s!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 08:58
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
 
Naaaah... That's like saying CDs killed vinyls : totally inaccurate >> vinyls were killed by cassettes (portability reasons: ghetto blaster, walkman), which in turned were killed by the CD (especially once the discman came in)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
Prog committed suicide by getting fat, old, tired, spoiled, uninspired and often ridiculous by 78Tongue
 
 
I never said it killed prog.  Agree with your last sentence though.
 
You said it tried to (which basically the same).... but even then, 99% of runks only wanted their 1/4h of fame and a spot in the sun.... All they wanted was to be able to find a spot in society back then. Their horizons were solidly blocked because of the severe economic crisis the UK was in - Europe in general, but the UK was paralized by permanent strikes. It was no wonder a lot of these young punks were pro-Tatcher (though only Paul Weller of The Jam admitted to it openly)
 
 
Obviously, nobody had the intention to kill anyone (until the Oy punk and hardcore punk movements came in the the early 80's)
 
 
 
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

I said that the Yugoslavian prog was destroyed by the punk because, after all that punk histeria, the new kids were lost the motive to form the prog bands, only punk/post-punk. It was like a good football team that was left without the junior team.
Yugoslavian radio stations were played all of important and "important" albums of the time, and therefore they were playing a lot of punk.
OK, no idea what the Yugoslavian radio (were there any other than state radios?) played in the 70's, but I certainly wasn't picturing them playing King Crimson or Genesis in 71 or 75. or The Clash in 77, FTM... I mean even Belgian radios didn't... we had to resort to France Inter
I mean, I'm sure there were underground networks in Serbia, but nothing mainstream/official (and neither punk nor prog were mainstream in the 70's), AFAIK.

They were played the foreign prog regurarly, for example that fm radio station "Beograd 202" (which still exists as 'classic rock' oriented station) was played the foreign prog bands in 70s a lot because the station is a daughter-company of that offical Radio and Television of Belgrade who also owns one of the major record companies here, PGP RTB, who was printed here, under licence, the albums by Jethro Tull, Genesis, Gong, Rick Wakeman, Mike Oldfield, Return to Forever, Steely Dan, Tangerine Dream, Can, etc. And "Beograd 202" were played all of them. Also, we have here in Belgrade that fm station "Studio B" which was also rock oriented radio in 70s so they played everything of that time; some more "avant" stuff they were played during the night, e.g. King Crimson's songs from LTiA or Red.
OK, thanks
Never would've guessed.
 


Edited by Sean Trane - August 27 2015 at 09:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 08:46
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
 
Naaaah... That's like saying CDs killed vinyls : totally inaccurate >> vinyls were killed by cassettes (portability reasons: ghetto blaster, walkman), which in turned were killed by the CD (especially once the discman came in)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
Prog committed suicide by getting fat, old, tired, spoiled, uninspired and often ridiculous by 78Tongue
 
 


I never said it killed prog.  Agree with your last sentence though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 08:30
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

I said that the Yugoslavian prog was destroyed by the punk because, after all that punk histeria, the new kids were lost the motive to form the prog bands, only punk/post-punk. It was like a good football team that was left without the junior team.
Yugoslavian radio stations were played all of important and "important" albums of the time, and therefore they were playing a lot of punk.
 
 
OK, no idea what the Yugoslavian radio (were there any other than state radios?) played in the 70's, but I certainly wasn't picturing them playing King Crimson or Genesis in 71 or 75.  or The Clash in 77, FTM... I mean even Belgian radios didn't... we had to resort to France Inter
 
I mean, I'm sure there were underground networks in Serbia, but nothing mainstream/official (and neither punk nor prog were mainstream in  the 70's), AFAIK. 

They were played the foreign prog regurarly, for example that fm radio station "Beograd 202" (which still exists as 'classic rock' oriented station) was played the foreign prog bands in 70s a lot because the station is a daughter-company of that offical Radio and Television of Belgrade who also owns one of the major record companies here, PGP RTB, who was printed here, under licence, the albums by Jethro Tull, Genesis, Gong, Rick Wakeman, Mike Oldfield, Return to Forever, Steely Dan, Tangerine Dream, Can, etc. And "Beograd 202" were played all of them. Also, we have here in Belgrade that fm station "Studio B" which was also rock oriented radio in 70s so they played everything of that time; some more "avant" stuff they were played during the night, e.g. King Crimson's songs from LTiA or Red.
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - August 27 2015 at 08:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 07:45
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

I said that the Yugoslavian prog was destroyed by the punk because, after all that punk histeria, the new kids were lost the motive to form the prog bands, only punk/post-punk. It was like a good football team that was left without the junior team.
Yugoslavian radio stations were played all of important and "important" albums of the time, and therefore they were playing a lot of punk.
 
 
OK, no idea what the Yugoslavian radio (were there any other than state radios?) played in the 70's, but I certainly wasn't picturing them playing King Crimson or Genesis in 71 or 75.  or The Clash in 77, FTM... I mean even Belgian radios didn't... we had to resort to France Inter
 
I mean, I'm sure there were underground networks in Serbia, but nothing mainstream/official (and neither punk nor prog were mainstream in  the 70's), AFAIK.
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 06:00
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
(...)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
(...)
 
 
 
Depending on where, really. 
In my country, prog was thoroughly destroyed by punk.
It was because that 99% of new bands that were formed in the late eighties and nineties just were wanting to emulate their punk idols from late seventies and early eighties, and they did not even think about progressive rock although prog was going pretty strong in former Yugosalavia before that punk hysteria; also, the record companies were lost interest to release some new prog bands, only bigs from 70s. Punk / Post Punk became popular so much that there was no substance anymore from which that prog could emerged with a number of new  prog bands and new fans of prog; there were just a few of new prog bands with a very small fanbase. 
It's needless even to write about how much punk here was supported by national rock press, and even British NME declared a Belgrade's punk band Električni Orgazam ("Electric Orgasm") as the best non-British band.
 
 
 
You mean that bands like Genesis ELP and GG were wiped out from the Yougoslavian state radio airwaves of 77 or 79 by The Clash and TSP??Shocked
 
Because your post talks about a decade later than the "punk" explosion, who strated in August 76 (the Mont-De-Marsan punk festival in France) until the fall of 77... after that , we can talk of new wave
 
If anything in Canada during the late 70's, Toronto (Ontario in general) got somewhat influenced by the London-punk-scene, but it affected few people... the then-contemporary disco-craze did much more damage than punk in that regard
And in Montreal  (Quebec in general), disco really wiped out all prog bands except for the ones who had a squerer rock format... which only leaves Octobre and Offenbach (and its offshoot Corbeau) by the start of the 80's.  There , prog got "killed"... but by disco twits.
I said that the Yugoslavian prog was destroyed by the punk because, after all that punk histeria, the new kids were lost the motive to form the prog bands, only punk/post-punk. It was like a good football team that was left without the junior team.
Yugoslavian radio stations were played all of important and "important" albums of the time, and therefore they were playing a lot of punk.
 


Edited by Svetonio - August 27 2015 at 06:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 04:54
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
(...)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
(...)
 
 
 
Depending on where, really. 
In my country, prog was thoroughly destroyed by punk.
It was because that 99% of new bands that were formed in the late eighties and nineties just were wanting to emulate their punk idols from late seventies and early eighties, and they did not even think about progressive rock although prog was going pretty strong in former Yugosalavia before that punk hysteria; also, the record companies were lost interest to release some new prog bands, only bigs from 70s. Punk / Post Punk became popular so much that there was no substance anymore from which that prog could emerged with a number of new  prog bands and new fans of prog; there were just a few of new prog bands with a very small fanbase. 
It's needless even to write about how much punk here was supported by national rock press, and even British NME declared a Belgrade's punk band Električni Orgazam ("Electric Orgasm") as the best non-British band.
 
 
 
You mean that bands like Genesis ELP and GG were wiped out from the Yougoslavian state radio airwaves of 77 or 79 by The Clash and TSP??Shocked
 
Because your post talks about a decade later than the "punk" explosion, who strated in August 76 (the Mont-De-Marsan punk festival in France) until the fall of 77... after that , we can talk of new wave
 
If anything in Canada during the late 70's, Toronto (Ontario in general) got somewhat influenced by the London-punk-scene, but it affected few people... the then-contemporary disco-craze did much more damage than punk in that regard
And in Montreal  (Quebec in general), disco really wiped out all prog bands except for the ones who had a squerer rock format... which only leaves Octobre and Offenbach (and its offshoot Corbeau) by the start of the 80's.  There , prog got "killed"... but by disco twits.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 04:41
I get the impression people exaggerate how unpopular progressive rock, but that probably has a lot to do with me being Scandinavian. I mean, Sweden is the one country on the planet where Henry Cow command a significant degree of mainstream crossover success. Henry freaking Cow!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 04:00
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
(...)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
(...)
 
 
 
Depending on where, really. 
In my country, prog was thoroughly destroyed by punk.
It was because that 99% of new bands that were formed in the late eighties and nineties just were wanting to emulate their punk idols from late seventies and early eighties, and they did not even think about progressive rock although prog was going pretty strong in former Yugosalavia before that punk hysteria; also, the record companies were lost interest to release some new prog bands, only bigs from 70s. Punk / Post Punk became popular so much that there was no substance anymore from which that prog could emerged with a number of new  prog bands and new fans of prog; there were just a few of new prog bands with a very small fanbase. 
It's needless even to write about how much punk here was supported by national rock press, and even British NME declared a Belgrade's punk band Električni Orgazam ("Electric Orgasm") as the best non-British band.
 
 


Edited by Svetonio - August 27 2015 at 04:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 03:51
I should say that there's nothing wrong with not liking punk, nothing's for everyone after all, but the negative descriptions of the scene given here in this thread I can't recognize at all and seem like they've been informed entirely by propaganda from Margaret Thatcher-era conservative tabloid newspapers.

Turns out it's just that most people here's experiences of punk culture are from the late 1970s and early 1980s, but I know firsthand that punk isn't a static and stagnant form of music but has instead continued to evolve since then. I'll give you this, though, that the music often ends up taking a backseat to the ideological aspect though...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 03:30
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Good question mate. Punk tried to kill prog, and failed miserably.
 
 
Naaaah... That's like saying CDs killed vinyls : totally inaccurate >> vinyls were killed by cassettes (portability reasons: ghetto blaster, walkman), which in turned were killed by the CD (especially once the discman came in)
 
Punk didn't kill "prog"Stern SmileGeek
 
Prog committed suicide by getting fat, old, tired, spoiled, uninspired and often ridiculous by 78Tongue
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 02:30
Well, the punks I know are more into the hardcore stuff which didn't really exist until half a generation later than the '77 era, but they do also listen to those formative artists and even 1960s stuff like 13th Floor Elevators as forerunners to their own subculture. Maybe the mid/late-1970s punk sound is more of a nostalgia thing these days, but the genre has evolved since then. (all the -cores for instance: crust, grind, math, noise etc)

I mean, try to say these bands aren't talented musicians or don't take what they do seriously beyond just being a fashion phase for them:











The last band in particular show a lot of Gorguts and Voivod influence, for crying out loud.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2015 at 00:36
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

Originally posted by moosehead moosehead wrote:

Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

^^ Young people don't move these days Tongue
 
Not a good joke. Hip hop movement started way back in the 70s'
I was pointing for Svetonio's post, but seriously what major movement appeared in the last 20 years? Ermm
EDM (existed before but rose to popularity in the 90s). Grunge. In the 00s, revivalism.
EDM? Well, some kind of dancing music was always existed and always will be. Grunge was a strictly an American thing, unlike punk that was spreading on both sides of Atlantic. Also, that one movement could be callled "big", it must to be "way of life", includes fashion. And probably the most important thing is that the strong reflections of the movement must be seen in other arts such as art paiinting, art photography, features films and prose.

Edited by Svetonio - August 27 2015 at 00:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2015 at 18:49
Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

Originally posted by moosehead moosehead wrote:

Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

^^ Young people don't move these days Tongue
 
Not a good joke. Hip hop movement started way back in the 70s'
I was pointing for Svetonio's post, but seriously what major movement appeared in the last 20 years? Ermm
EDM (existed before but rose to popularity in the 90s). Grunge. In the 00s, revivalism.

Edited by Polymorphia - August 26 2015 at 18:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2015 at 18:07
Hmmm. As someone who grew up in NYC and was a young adult in the seventies, I can give you my take on the NYC punk scene, for what it's worth.
First off, NYC was the pits in the seventies. Greenwich Village became a rundown slum after the folk artists split for greener pastures and the fledgling punk scene was a kind of embodiment of the decay of the city, spiritually and morally.
 
It was not uncommon to see someone like Paul Simon in a summer Central Park concert and then checkout the punks at CBGB's. Most punk bands were actually good musicians that played down their chops and played very sloppy sets as that's what the music called for.
 
Sventonio is correct on one key point. Album sales were becoming big business in the seventies and record company scouts were all over NYC. That's how bands like Blue Oyster Cult got their start along with people like Billy Joel. Both were from neighboring Long Island.
 
I, and my friends, generally preferred to escape the city drudgery by going to Madison Square Garden and seeing bands like ELP, Pink Floyd, Yes and Tull. We actually thought the whole punk thing would just be contained to NYC and eventually die out.
 
The so-called first wave of the Velvet Underground and the MC5 were a joke. They were not popular in NYC and the Velvets actually took up residence in Boston, Mass. The MC5 stayed at home in Detroit, I assume.
 
Punk did eventually die out and pretty quickly but not before doing a whirlwind on both coasts, crossing the Atlantic and spawning New Wave. That's how I remember it. Very quick and not making a lot of sense, even to a native New Yorker.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 26 2015 at 17:46
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The perceived enemy of progressive rock, what caused the rise of punk rock in the seventies and why does its short reign still resonate today?
 
Punk was the perceived enemy of all music other than punk.
LOL
 
Frankly, I  never cared for any of the punk stuff though there was definitely energy there.


Edited by dr wu23 - August 26 2015 at 17:48
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