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Angelo View Drop Down
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 10:47
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

You're right in saying not every musician should be able to make a living off their music, but the opposite argument is true, it should be possible for at least some. Without resorting to mass commerialism. Otherwise that sounds the death knell for anything other than "music by numbers". 



That would be hell.... Dead
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 10:49
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Does anyone know how Progstreaming works?  Do they pay the artists per streams? Do they pay the artist a fixed amount for the right to provide their album for streaming?  Or is it more of a promotional thing where the artist agrees to allow the album to be streamed for free for a month or two with the knowledge that they are receiving publicity for their music?  Or do the artists pay Progstreaming for the right to have their album included there because of the publicity that they receive by doing so?

This seems to me to be the way to go for niche artists.  Rather than being lost in the jungle of Spotify or Pandora, they would seem to have more exposure on a niche site that specializes in their niche.  The number of streams being limited to a number of free streams or only available for a fixed period of time would likely encourage listeners to buy these albums before they disappear.

It's free for the artists, and they're streamed for 2 months. The site and its maintenance are paid for through donations and advertisements.
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Angelo View Drop Down
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 10:54
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Yeah, Progstreaming sounds OK. I'll give it a go.

What do I like about it ? By prog fans for prog fans, no big business, no pretence of paying musicians... why not ? 

But I doubt there'll be cross sell. ;-)

Incidentally, here's some Bandcamp stats for you. Last 12,000 visits, nearly... most visits do not come from Progarchives. In fact, less than 1%. The Muffwiggler site is a site for electronic music fans who build their own synths. Most are from within Bandcamp itself. People don't do click throughs. 

So you have to ask yourself: if a prog rock band advertising on a prog rock forum get less than 1% of people looking them up when they've placed a lot of stuff on here (672 posts) then will the prog rock band on a streaming website have people deliberately looking them up on Bandcamp as a result of hearing them on another website ? 

Not very likely, is it ? ;-)

672 posts on a forum is a lot, by some standards. Question is how many views these posts got. Depending on the forum section they're put in, and the time the are posted, they will be seen by more or fewer of the intended audience. A forum like this is, for a lot of people, not the first place they go looking for new music. That would also explain why Bandcamp itself (Where people do go for that reason) produces more hits on your music. 
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Points: 3167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 11:37
Most of the music that I own I get off of bandcamp directly from artists for free, but I still spend more on music than most people with paying for engineering/etc.

I understand that music holds little value to the public so I don't expect things like success. I need to make my own favorite albums and nothing else.

It really sucks that no one can make money off of it anymore. Most of my favorite musicians have to work day jobs... I guess in the end that slows down the creativity for the world. But I also think no one making money off of music weeds out the losers.
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf
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Points: 18497 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 12:56
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

...
Most progressive rock musicians (except a few, very fortunate ones) live on a financial knife edge and need to sell their music to live. Freeloaders and thieves (which is what illegal downloaders are) ruin that situation and the result is that we lose musicians like Martin.
 
Most musicians I have ever met, live on the edge ... but some that I have also met, have another edge, and while streaming may be a problem for some, it isn't for others! Fer crying out loud ... the likes of Dream Theater, Marillion and many other bands, ended up making their future off a lot of sharing of the music when they needed it.
 
I am not an illegal dl'r and would not advise my friends to steal from our friends and the like, and my whole collection of LP's and CD's is all bought, baby ... all of it! And through out my life, I even lost my job because I said ... "love over gold" ... but in the end, I am proud of having stood up for the right situation, and the other folks ended up in the dumps deservedly so, for lying, cheating and the like.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Points: 7493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2016 at 15:57
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

As far as I am concerned, this is a very good time for this debate. The other night, I reread the exceptional interview that Jim Garten did with Martin Orford on this site. I would,thoroughly recommend that people read it again, because it is absolutely one of the finest I have ever read anywhere.

Nice thread, Ryan, which I hope can be an interesting, useful, and positive debate on the site

I agree with everything you said, Steve!  Happy New Year! Clap
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 07:02
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Yeah, Progstreaming sounds OK. I'll give it a go.

What do I like about it ? By prog fans for prog fans, no big business, no pretence of paying musicians... why not ? 

But I doubt there'll be cross sell. ;-)

Incidentally, here's some Bandcamp stats for you. Last 12,000 visits, nearly... most visits do not come from Progarchives. In fact, less than 1%. The Muffwiggler site is a site for electronic music fans who build their own synths. Most are from within Bandcamp itself. People don't do click throughs. 

So you have to ask yourself: if a prog rock band advertising on a prog rock forum get less than 1% of people looking them up when they've placed a lot of stuff on here (672 posts) then will the prog rock band on a streaming website have people deliberately looking them up on Bandcamp as a result of hearing them on another website ? 

Not very likely, is it ? ;-)

672 posts on a forum is a lot, by some standards. Question is how many views these posts got. Depending on the forum section they're put in, and the time the are posted, they will be seen by more or fewer of the intended audience. A forum like this is, for a lot of people, not the first place they go looking for new music. That would also explain why Bandcamp itself (Where people do go for that reason) produces more hits on your music. 


Hi Angelo, you may recall that one particular thread we had a discussion on recently had over 2,300 views. I'm in IT sales and marketing as a day job, so take it as read that I know how to shift - well, software, at least. ;-)

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 07:06
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Most of the music that I own I get off of bandcamp directly from artists for free, but I still spend more on music than most people with paying for engineering/etc.

I understand that music holds little value to the public so I don't expect things like success. I need to make my own favorite albums and nothing else.

It really sucks that no one can make money off of it anymore. Most of my favorite musicians have to work day jobs... I guess in the end that slows down the creativity for the world. But I also think no one making money off of music weeds out the losers.

Hi Smurph, I don't know if that's quite the right interpretation. If we say "No one at all will make any money off music, full stop" - which is becoming the case, with the exception of a tiny, tiny, tiny few people, all of whom are producing commercial music.... that doesn't weed out the losers. It weeds out everyone. 

Supply and demand then kicks in as musicians..... stop bothering. To assume people will keep creating music which coincides with your (and my) particular niche market tastes when there is zero money in it and nothing but continual rip offs..... is pretty much a big assumption. ;-)

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Points: 3167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 08:59
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:



Hi Smurph, I don't know if that's quite the right interpretation. If we say "No one at all will make any money off music, full stop" - which is becoming the case, with the exception of a tiny, tiny, tiny few people, all of whom are producing commercial music.... that doesn't weed out the losers. It weeds out everyone. 

Supply and demand then kicks in as musicians..... stop bothering. To assume people will keep creating music which coincides with your (and my) particular niche market tastes when there is zero money in it and nothing but continual rip offs..... is pretty much a big assumption. ;-)
[/QUOTE]

Why would a musician stop bothering just because there is no money? Some people have a need to create that goes far beyond what any other human cares about. If everyone on the planet died, I would have to spend a lot more time surviving but I would still create albums.

I would rather not listen to a musician that would give up so easily.
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf
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Komandant Shamal View Drop Down
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 10:18
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:



Hi Smurph, I don't know if that's quite the right interpretation. If we say "No one at all will make any money off music, full stop" - which is becoming the case, with the exception of a tiny, tiny, tiny few people, all of whom are producing commercial music.... that doesn't weed out the losers. It weeds out everyone. 

Supply and demand then kicks in as musicians..... stop bothering. To assume people will keep creating music which coincides with your (and my) particular niche market tastes when there is zero money in it and nothing but continual rip offs..... is pretty much a big assumption. ;-)

Why would a musician stop bothering just because there is no money? Some people have a need to create that goes far beyond what any other human cares about. If everyone on the planet died, I would have to spend a lot more time surviving but I would still create albums.

I would rather not listen to a musician that would give up so easily.
[/QUOTE] Clap
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 11:17
No, no, gentlemen, that attitude stinks and it represents what's happening in the music world. People seem to have forgotten it's *a two way relationship*. 

Fans support bands
Bands play for fans

And that's what's wrong with the modern music scene. 

If you expect someone to do something for you *for free and as a favour* then you can't really complain if they don't. A fan, simply put, is someone who supports a band. Not someone who just likes the music.

Compliments are very nice but essentially, try eating them. I'm just as happy to play with like minded musicians in a practice room. 


Edited by Davesax1965 - January 08 2016 at 11:18

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Meltdowner View Drop Down
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Points: 10281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 11:31

I saw this yesterday, it reminded me of this conversation.


Edited by Meltdowner - January 08 2016 at 11:31
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Points: 3167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 12:30
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

No, no, gentlemen, that attitude stinks and it represents what's happening in the music world. People seem to have forgotten it's *a two way relationship*. 

Fans support bands
Bands play for fans

And that's what's wrong with the modern music scene. 

If you expect someone to do something for you *for free and as a favour* then you can't really complain if they don't. A fan, simply put, is someone who supports a band. Not someone who just likes the music.

Compliments are very nice but essentially, try eating them. I'm just as happy to play with like minded musicians in a practice room. 

This attitude might stink to you but all I'm doing is responding to the way the world is. We can't make people think that music has value. My response is to keep making music anyway until I die.

I'd be happy to hand out a free album to anyone that personally asked for it. I'd also give 1$ to anyone that would be willing to sit down and listen to one of my albums with their eyes closed and headphones on, focusing on nothing else. If someone would film video of themselves doing that (make sure I can hear the bleed from the headphones being super loud), then write even a scathing review, and I'd send someone 1 dollar. I value my own art more than ANYONE will ever value it.

I would bet you money that I couldn't pay most people to focus and care about what I do. And I'm fine with that. It sucks, but I've accepted how little value music has anymore.

I'm contributing to the devaluing of music because I'd rather die than stop making albums. I can't seem to understand people that seem to think that they have value. We have no value. Every Tom, Dick, and Jane is an "artist" or "musician" now. Our insignificance is insurmountable. There is nothing we can do.

In fact, most of the music I make is not a favor to anyone. In fact, I would say that its existence is more of a burden on the world than it is a positive thing. But I have to do it or else.

I agree that artists should be paid but how can we change the shifting group think of mass culture?


Edited by Smurph - January 08 2016 at 12:47
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 18:54
Originally posted by Komandant Shamal Komandant Shamal wrote:

Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:





Hi Smurph, I don't know if that's quite the right interpretation. If we say "No one at all will make any money off music, full stop" - which is becoming the case, with the exception of a tiny, tiny, tiny few people, all of whom are producing commercial music.... that doesn't weed out the losers. It weeds out everyone. 


Supply and demand then kicks in as musicians..... stop bothering. To assume people will keep creating music which coincides with your (and my) particular niche market tastes when there is zero money in it and nothing but continual rip offs..... is pretty much a big assumption. ;-)



Why would a musician stop bothering just because there is no money? Some people have a need to create that goes far beyond what any other human cares about. If everyone on the planet died, I would have to spend a lot more time surviving but I would still create albums.



I would rather not listen to a musician that would give up so easily.
I'm not giving up. I continue to play guitar in my bedroom. Is anyone a fan? Well, of course not. Davesax is not talking about giving up music, he's talking about not continuing to prepare it and release it to a wider audience who do not access to his bedroom or computer desktop.

Edited by HackettFan - January 08 2016 at 18:57
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Points: 7951 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 19:12
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

I'm contributing to the devaluing of music because I'd rather die than stop making albums. I can't seem to understand people that seem to think that they have value. We have no value. Every Tom, Dick, and Jane is an "artist" or "musician" now. Our insignificance is insurmountable. There is nothing we can do.
I don't see what "every Tom, Dick, and Jane" making music has to do with the value of it. Every Tom, Dick, and Jane has been able to make visual art throughout quite a bit of our history now. This did not render it with no value. Visual artists do make money (with differing degrees of struggle). The difference in the case of music is not that a lot of people can do it. The difference is the sense of privilege felt by so many in procuring it.

Edited by HackettFan - January 08 2016 at 21:06
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Komandant Shamal View Drop Down
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Points: 954 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2016 at 21:09
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

No, no, gentlemen, that attitude stinks and it represents what's happening in the music world. People seem to have forgotten it's *a two way relationship*. 

Fans support bands
Bands play for fans

And that's what's wrong with the modern music scene. 

If you expect someone to do something for you *for free and as a favour* then you can't really complain if they don't. A fan, simply put, is someone who supports a band. Not someone who just likes the music.

Compliments are very nice but essentially, try eating them. I'm just as happy to play with like minded musicians in a practice room. 

This attitude might stink to you but all I'm doing is responding to the way the world is. We can't make people think that music has value. My response is to keep making music anyway until I die.

I'd be happy to hand out a free album to anyone that personally asked for it. I'd also give 1$ to anyone that would be willing to sit down and listen to one of my albums with their eyes closed and headphones on, focusing on nothing else. If someone would film video of themselves doing that (make sure I can hear the bleed from the headphones being super loud), then write even a scathing review, and I'd send someone 1 dollar. I value my own art more than ANYONE will ever value it.

I would bet you money that I couldn't pay most people to focus and care about what I do. And I'm fine with that. It sucks, but I've accepted how little value music has anymore.

I'm contributing to the devaluing of music because I'd rather die than stop making albums. I can't seem to understand people that seem to think that they have value. We have no value. Every Tom, Dick, and Jane is an "artist" or "musician" now. Our insignificance is insurmountable. There is nothing we can do.

In fact, most of the music I make is not a favor to anyone. In fact, I would say that its existence is more of a burden on the world than it is a positive thing. But I have to do it or else.

I agree that artists should be paid but how can we change the shifting group think of mass culture?
word of a true artist Clap
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 05:34
God, have you been hornswoggled or what ?

"Word of a true artist" - well. I release a lot of music for free. I give away a lot of albums for free. I'm not bothered about the money, it's not the primary concern. Hardly even a concern, in fact. 

What I AM bothered about is being ripped off. Nor do I want to rip anyone off.

Music should be presented at a fair price to fans who should SUPPORT bands by buying it at a fair price. Dream Theater recently released a 4 CD set for $129. That is a total and utter rip off. Festival tickets are a complete rip off, too. Why do bands do it ? Well, in most cases, it's the management doing it - and if, frankly, Joe Public won't pay money for music, bands will get their own back by charging them more to attend a concert. 

The attitude of "Oh, I can't afford it, I won't pay for it" is what's brought us down to this mess. What's really meant is "Oh, I can get away without paying for it".  Or. "What personally suits my circumstances is right". Wrong, totally wrong.

Why has it become socially acceptable to not pay for music and to imagine that "proper" bands will keep on playing for nothing, buy equipment, buy studio time, go on tour, with no income ? Get real. 

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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 05:39
PS Meltdowner, I love that graphic. ;-)

Apologies if I sound ... irritated by the idea that I should play for nothing or I'm not "a true artist". 

I wonder why that is ? In the interim, I'll resist the temptation to double the price of all my Bandcamp releases, based on the idea that I'm doing specialist music for a limited market. Which is something a lot of bands could do - want specialised music ? Pay a fortune. "You may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb". 

Suppose I'm a cabinet maker. I go off and make a fantastic table out of flame maple. It takes me months - after taking years to learn all the skills and a fortune investing in the tools. 

Someone says, wow, nice table. I can't afford it. Give it to me. 

Same logic. Oh yes, if I say, "no", then I'm apparently not a master cabinet maker. Also, if I ask 32 million for it, I'm ripping a potential buyer off. Fair price for the goods, fair deal for the cabinet maker, fair deal for the buyer.

Suppose no one buys. Eventually, all the cabinet makers say "No money in this" and go off and flip burgers.

It takes me 10 months of all my spare time and money to make an album.

That's more time than it would take to make a cabinet. 

The logic is VERY simple. 


Edited by Davesax1965 - January 09 2016 at 05:47

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O666 View Drop Down
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Points: 2619 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 08:34
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Hi O666, I fully sympathise.

But by the same token, that's like saying an artist should just give his music away.

If I dropped the price of an album to $1, would most prog rock fans in Iran buy it ? If they have access to streaming sites, they seem to have been able to afford a computer, so $1 doesn't seem unreasonable. ;-)


Hi. 
We (Iranians) can't pay for music in internet! I don't know why?! Paypal or Visa or ... don't support Iran country! It's so outrageous that a nation deprived to buy music in internet. Is it reasonable?!
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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 09 2016 at 08:56
I do sympathise, but, by that logic, all goods on the internet should be free to Iranians who can't buy by Paypal. And that seems very .... wrong. ;-)

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