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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 18:49
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

I'm not a theologian. But, the whole "what is a day to God" argument seems to be inferred by passages like Psalms 90:4. So, one has to be careful when doing any kind of dating ... scientific (be it carbon-14 isotopic or based on theology).

I personally think that this whole "God made the world in seven days" (or rather six since he rested on the seventh) is belittling God to what I call "the wandweaver". "Let there be light" and "ta-dah", there is light. isn't it much more marvelluous to have a God who thinks of such a sophisticated method of creation as evolution, a concept no human being could ever have thought of, instead of a God who just goes "let there be lions", "let there be zebras", "let there be skunks" or "let there be crocodiles"?


Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 18:50


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 18:21
I'm not a theologian. But, the whole "what is a day to God" argument seems to be inferred by passages like Psalms 90:4. So, one has to be careful when doing any kind of dating ... scientific (be it carbon-14 isotopic or based on theology).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 17:46
Good deal. That question reminds me of the Bill Nye versus KY pastor debate. Of course, I had to watch it, but I think that the debate did not consider any of the basic points I mentioned earlier, and it seemed to try to pit science versus religion. As such, I think it was a huge step in the wrong direction.   And, I apologize for being snippy. Your question just unearthed a bad memory for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 17:11
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

Again, to clarify, never did I mention the Bible. We are not even discussing religion. We are only talking about philosophy. The debate you are seeking is not with me.

my answer was directed at Argo2112, not you


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 17:06
Maybe you should consult a theologian with a degree having to do with the statistically significant limits of detection of scientific methods of dating. And, if you believe in God, you might consider what a "day" might mean to such an entity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 17:01
Again, to clarify, never did I mention the Bible. We are not even discussing religion. We are only talking about philosophy. The debate you are seeking is not with me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 16:12
Originally posted by Argo2112 Argo2112 wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

You are right. We probably shouldn't say words like must, but in logical reasoning it happens. My bad! The reason I say that if a creator God exists, should be outside the universe is because the assumption is that God created the universe and therefore, how could the creator God exist solely within the creation, especially at the point of creation? Yes, the creator God may be able to intersect the creation once it is created, but to create within the creation at the onset seems illogical. As a result, I find it an exercise in futility to try to detect God with scientific instruments. Perhaps you have another view?

this mirrors some of my thoughts. scientists say that theological arguments should not be used in a scientific debate, and of course rightly so! what most of them however fail to realize is that the opposite of course also applies: scientific arguments should not be used in a theological debate.

the whole issue of "science versus God" is erroneous in the first place for one does by no means exclude the other

I think it depends on the issue being debated. If it's a question of " is there a God" or something where a scientific conclusion isn't possible then I agree. However if it's something like " the Bible says the Earth is only 10,000 years old"  then I think you can use science to counter that agreement since we have pretty conclusive evidence that the Earth is much older

you are confusing two things. if a theologian says "the bible says the earth is 10,000 years old" then this is a theological statement about the bible, and science has to keep out of it. however, if a theologian says "the earth is 10,000 years old because the bible says so" then he uses a theological argument in a scientific debate, which, as I mentioned before, he should not. I hope you notice the subtle difference

Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 16:19


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 15:47
I think my previous argument, and Baldjean's comment, point to the futility of a science versus religion debate. They can be, on the one hand, fully compatible, with the religion side being a matter of faith, and science not providing satisfactory or satisfying answers on many topics (for example, moral law).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 15:37
Here we were talking purely about philosophy and rational thought, and we did not mention any religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 13:18
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

You are right. We probably shouldn't say words like must, but in logical reasoning it happens. My bad! The reason I say that if a creator God exists, should be outside the universe is because the assumption is that God created the universe and therefore, how could the creator God exist solely within the creation, especially at the point of creation? Yes, the creator God may be able to intersect the creation once it is created, but to create within the creation at the onset seems illogical. As a result, I find it an exercise in futility to try to detect God with scientific instruments. Perhaps you have another view?

this mirrors some of my thoughts. scientists say that theological arguments should not be used in a scientific debate, and of course rightly so! what most of them however fail to realize is that the opposite of course also applies: scientific arguments should not be used in a theological debate.

the whole issue of "science versus God" is erroneous in the first place for one does by no means exclude the other

I think it depends on the issue being debated. If it's a question of " is there a God" or something where a scientific conclusion isn't possible then I agree. However if it's something like " the Bible says the Earth is only 10,000 years old"  then I think you can use science to counter that agreement since we have pretty conclusive evidence that the Earth is much older
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 12:51
I have some thoughts on what God, if God exists, might be like that might help explain some ... what seem like ... paradoxes. But, at that point I would be crossing the great philosophy/religion divide and I've already upset Dark Elf enough with my babblings about philosophy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 12:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 09:49
Originally posted by Jaketejas Jaketejas wrote:

You are right. We probably shouldn't say words like must, but in logical reasoning it happens. My bad! The reason I say that if a creator God exists, should be outside the universe is because the assumption is that God created the universe and therefore, how could the creator God exist solely within the creation, especially at the point of creation? Yes, the creator God may be able to intersect the creation once it is created, but to create within the creation at the onset seems illogical. As a result, I find it an exercise in futility to try to detect God with scientific instruments. Perhaps you have another view?

this mirrors some of my thoughts. scientists say that theological arguments should not be used in a scientific debate, and of course rightly so! what most of them however fail to realize is that the opposite of course also applies: scientific arguments should not be used in a theological debate.

the whole issue of "science versus God" is erroneous in the first place for one does by no means exclude the other


Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 09:51


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 09:45
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


...It would depend on the circumstances, but after seeing a vision of what appears to be God, and choosing between hypothesis 1: It really was a God, and hypothesis 2: It was a hallucination, I do think that number two would be more likely and require the least assumptions.... 

What about "it was what it was"? Your hypothesis 2 seems to invalidate your experience which as experience doesn't deserve to be invalidated (in my view). Hypothesis 1 is by far not the only option not to invalidate your experience. Your experience is one thing, getting at conclusions about "real existence of something/somebody" is quite another. (And by the way, the truth of hypothesis 1 is not only determined by some objective reality outside yourself, but also by your definition of "god".)


Sure, and it would depend on one's definition of God and what one means by a vision. Of course there are other hypotheses and those were just two examples. I'm fine with validating the experience.

Put it this way, if I saw, felt, and experienced what I thought seemed to be God -- let's say for argument-sake it's the same God that said to Abraham, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love... and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you." -- That would be a powerful experience, but would it be enough to convince me that it actually was God according to a particular conception of the Abrahamic God? Or that I should sacrifice my son if He told me to do so? If I were to choose between two competing hypotheses as to what seems more likely, it's a God or a hallucination, then my experiences, because as I said, I've had what I believe are hallucinations, would be more likely to lead me to accept the second hypothesis (that I've had hallucinations in the past, and this might well be another does not seem as fantastical as this is actually God). And actually, because of my psychology, and past issues, I would be more sceptical and circumspect that this is not a product of my distressed, wonky brain.

Edited by Logan - June 21 2019 at 10:19
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 08:47
this is a very interesting text by Raymond Smullyan called "Is God a Taoist"? it is a debate between a mortal and God. at first it is only about the issue of free will, but later it gets down to what God really is, how his existence can be proven and if this whole current experience of the mortal (his or her gender is never told, but I have the feeling the mortal is a man) is not just an hallucination. I think you, Logan, will enjoy this text very much; it is right up your alley, especially since the issue of determinism versus free will also comes up, with a surprising twist:


there are a few sentences missing at the end of this link; God does for example cite a few Taoists and Walt Whitman ("I give nothing as duties, what others give as duties I give as living impulses") in the full version, but this is a minor issue. this is perhaps the most intelligent text about God I have ever read


Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 09:31


A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 21 2019 at 07:26
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


It would depend on the circumstances, but after seeing a vision of what appears to be God, and choosing between hypothesis 1: It really was a God, and hypothesis 2: It was a hallucination, I do think that number two would be more likely and require the least assumptions. 

What about "it was what it was"? Your hypothesis 2 seems to invalidate your experience which as experience doesn't deserve to be invalidated (in my view). Hypothesis 1 is by far not the only option not to invalidate your experience. Your experience is one thing, getting at conclusions about "real existence of something/somebody" is quite another. (And by the way, the truth of hypothesis 1 is not only determined by some objective reality outside yourself, but also by your definition of "god".)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TenYearsAfter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2019 at 21:48
Originally posted by YESESIS YESESIS wrote:

"The setting: a sunny day in parched lands. Moses wanders alone.  Moses: "Yahweh, give me a sign!"  God conjures up a rainbow  Moses: "I don't find that sign very convincing. It could be a natural phenomenon. Give me another sign!"  God sets a bush alight  Moses: "That could still be down to natural causes. Give me another sign!"  God: "Oh for heaven's sake!" [strikes Moses down with lightning]  Moses [badly singed]: "Yeah, I think that will do, erm even if it... [Moses thinks better of it as thunder rumbles] No, never mind, that will do very nicely thank you."

Haha, I remember this. Good stuff.


 

God stuff ….
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2019 at 21:36
Sorry for the double post and I should be in bed, but I wanted to share what just happened. I was praying before bed, like I always do, and I asked about doubts and what not. Ok, sometimes God answers me(I believe) simply by putting thoughts into my head. So anyone who wants to take the following with a grain of salt.. by all means. Anyway the response I got was(again not some external voice or anything like that but rather thoughts popping into my head) that this life is basically a 'learning camp' and if He just revealed Himself to everyone then it would destroy the purpose of the whole thing. And then that for now I should just be happy that I got what I needed to believe and in the end I will understand everything.

So that's it. Just wanted to share that. Sleep well everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YESESIS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2019 at 19:14
"The setting: a sunny day in parched lands. Moses wanders alone.  Moses: "Yahweh, give me a sign!"  God conjures up a rainbow  Moses: "I don't find that sign very convincing. It could be a natural phenomenon. Give me another sign!"  God sets a bush alight  Moses: "That could still be down to natural causes. Give me another sign!"  God: "Oh for heaven's sake!" [strikes Moses down with lightning]  Moses [badly singed]: "Yeah, I think that will do, erm even if it... [Moses thinks better of it as thunder rumbles] No, never mind, that will do very nicely thank you."

Haha, I remember this. Good stuff.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 20 2019 at 18:17
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:


LOL .... there are literally countless references to the bibliography on that subject, or else look them up in the web. Therefore, you'd better step further from the common sense of those dictionaries definitions to fully acknowledge the differences between common sense and good sense. Have a good night. And good fun!

If you have the Asperger syndrome like Jean and I do it is hard to see the difference between the two.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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