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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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I personally think that this whole "God made the world in seven days" (or rather six since he rested on the seventh) is belittling God to what I call "the wandweaver". "Let there be light" and "ta-dah", there is light. isn't it much more marvelluous to have a God who thinks of such a sophisticated method of creation as evolution, a concept no human being could ever have thought of, instead of a God who just goes "let there be lions", "let there be zebras", "let there be skunks" or "let there be crocodiles"?
Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 18:50 |
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![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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I'm not a theologian. But, the whole "what is a day to God" argument seems to be inferred by passages like Psalms 90:4. So, one has to be careful when doing any kind of dating ... scientific (be it carbon-14 isotopic or based on theology).
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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Good deal. That question reminds me of the Bill Nye versus KY pastor debate. Of course, I had to watch it, but I think that the debate did not consider any of the basic points I mentioned earlier, and it seemed to try to pit science versus religion. As such, I think it was a huge step in the wrong direction. And, I apologize for being snippy. Your question just unearthed a bad memory for me.
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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my answer was directed at Argo2112, not you
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![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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Maybe you should consult a theologian with a degree having to do with the statistically significant limits of detection of scientific methods of dating. And, if you believe in God, you might consider what a "day" might mean to such an entity.
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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Again, to clarify, never did I mention the Bible. We are not even discussing religion. We are only talking about philosophy. The debate you are seeking is not with me.
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 16:19 |
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![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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I think my previous argument, and Baldjean's comment, point to the futility of a science versus religion debate. They can be, on the one hand, fully compatible, with the religion side being a matter of faith, and science not providing satisfactory or satisfying answers on many topics (for example, moral law).
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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Here we were talking purely about philosophy and rational thought, and we did not mention any religion.
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Argo2112 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 20 2017 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 4462 |
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I think it depends on the issue being debated. If it's a question of " is there a God" or something where a scientific conclusion isn't possible then I agree. However if it's something like " the Bible says the Earth is only 10,000 years old" then I think you can use science to counter that agreement since we have pretty conclusive evidence that the Earth is much older
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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I have some thoughts on what God, if God exists, might be like that might help explain some ... what seem like ... paradoxes. But, at that point I would be crossing the great philosophy/religion divide and I've already upset Dark Elf enough with my babblings about philosophy.
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Jaketejas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 27 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2266 |
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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this mirrors some of my thoughts. scientists say that theological arguments should not be used in a scientific debate, and of course rightly so! what most of them however fail to realize is that the opposite of course also applies: scientific arguments should not be used in a theological debate. the whole issue of "science versus God" is erroneous in the first place for one does by no means exclude the other
Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 09:51 |
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![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 38793 |
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Sure, and it would depend on one's definition of God and what one means by a vision. Of course there are other hypotheses and those were just two examples. I'm fine with validating the experience. Put it this way, if I saw, felt, and experienced what I thought seemed to be God -- let's say for argument-sake it's the same God that said to Abraham, "Take your son, your only son, whom you love... and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you." -- That would be a powerful experience, but would it be enough to convince me that it actually was God according to a particular conception of the Abrahamic God? Or that I should sacrifice my son if He told me to do so? If I were to choose between two competing hypotheses as to what seems more likely, it's a God or a hallucination, then my experiences, because as I said, I've had what I believe are hallucinations, would be more likely to lead me to accept the second hypothesis (that I've had hallucinations in the past, and this might well be another does not seem as fantastical as this is actually God). And actually, because of my psychology, and past issues, I would be more sceptical and circumspect that this is not a product of my distressed, wonky brain. Edited by Logan - June 21 2019 at 10:19 |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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BaldJean ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
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this is a very interesting text by Raymond Smullyan called "Is God a Taoist"? it is a debate between a mortal and God. at first it is only about the issue of free will, but later it gets down to what God really is, how his existence can be proven and if this whole current experience of the mortal (his or her gender is never told, but I have the feeling the mortal is a man) is not just an hallucination. I think you, Logan, will enjoy this text very much; it is right up your alley, especially since the issue of determinism versus free will also comes up, with a surprising twist: there are a few sentences missing at the end of this link; God does for example cite a few Taoists and Walt Whitman ("I give nothing as duties, what others give as duties I give as living impulses") in the full version, but this is a minor issue. this is perhaps the most intelligent text about God I have ever read
Edited by BaldJean - June 21 2019 at 09:31 |
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![]() A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15512 |
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What about "it was what it was"? Your hypothesis 2 seems to invalidate your experience which as experience doesn't deserve to be invalidated (in my view). Hypothesis 1 is by far not the only option not to invalidate your experience. Your experience is one thing, getting at conclusions about "real existence of something/somebody" is quite another. (And by the way, the truth of hypothesis 1 is not only determined by some objective reality outside yourself, but also by your definition of "god".)
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TenYearsAfter ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 01 2018 Location: Aruba Status: Offline Points: 347 |
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God stuff ….
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YESESIS ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 26 2017 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 2215 |
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Sorry for the double post and I should be in bed, but I wanted to share what just happened. I was praying before bed, like I always do, and I asked about doubts and what not. Ok, sometimes God answers me(I believe) simply by putting thoughts into my head. So anyone who wants to take the following with a grain of salt.. by all means. Anyway the response I got was(again not some external voice or anything like that but rather thoughts popping into my head) that this life is basically a 'learning camp' and if He just revealed Himself to everyone then it would destroy the purpose of the whole thing. And then that for now I should just be happy that I got what I needed to believe and in the end I will understand everything. So that's it. Just wanted to share that. Sleep well everyone.
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YESESIS ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 26 2017 Location: Maine Status: Offline Points: 2215 |
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"The setting: a sunny day in parched lands. Moses wanders alone.
Moses: "Yahweh, give me a sign!"
God conjures up a rainbow
Moses: "I don't find that sign very convincing. It could be a natural phenomenon. Give me another sign!"
God sets a bush alight
Moses: "That could still be down to natural causes. Give me another sign!"
God: "Oh for heaven's sake!" [strikes Moses down with lightning]
Moses [badly singed]: "Yeah, I think that will do, erm even if it... [Moses thinks better of it as thunder rumbles] No, never mind, that will do very nicely thank you." Haha, I remember this. Good stuff. |
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BaldFriede ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10266 |
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![]() BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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