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dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
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http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=65222

people can't even wait for the album to come out to rating bomb it with 1 star ratings
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I can’t pretend to know all about the statistics behind music, and I’m not going to pretend to care. I can tell what sounds good to me, and streaming can definitely be no worse than CD, depending where one streams. Tidal is known for streaming FLAC and for having CD qualify sound (although obviously what device you listen to either the stream or the CD makes a difference). As for expensive, Tidal is always having special offers, so as long as you are happy to make up new email addresses as required, you can take advantage of free months, or the present deal for four months premium access for £4. So, that’s £4 to listen to the whole Opeth discography at CD quality....
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.

Inferior is subjective, though. The only way this would be helpful is if every review stated what source it came from, without claiming it to be superior or inferior. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Simple. If it sounds like crap, say so.

Sure, but if that’s the case, then you don’t need to state the source.

My point is that, objectively, if all things are produced to their potential, then an LP is an inferior source compared to lossless streaming. But I suspect that even were that the case, ExitTheLemming would still think the stream was the inferior source. Hence why it becomes subjective, irrelevant of any “real” objectivity.

As you say, it is far more simple than that. Regardless of the source, if it sounds like crap, say so. 🤗



No-one is inferring that the audio by virtue of being streamed is somehow indicative of the sound quality. I don't have any subscriptions to services like Spotify but I doubt any such services out there can stream at 1411kbps (although with touted Hi Res Audio offerings from Amazon, Primephonic, Qobuz and Tidal this may change but it will come at a commensurate price for the consumer) I purchase a lot of downloadable music in FLAC format which is lossless and am happy to consider such a format suitable for the purposes of reviewing an album so I don't consider myself in thrall to physical media
There's nothing wrong with FLAC. You'll know if immediately if the music was recorded like sh*t.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Isn't this thread for reporting inappropriate ratings? Much as I'm enjoying this back and forth it should move elsewhere.

Yes, and I considered not arguing here, as potentially inappropriate. However, there was a suggestion (whether by implication or inference) that ratings are inappropriate if they come from an “inferior” source. For that reason alone, I felt it appropriate to counter the argument. Because it would be a very slippery slope to start upon.

If one reviewer has given ratings for every album in a discography, without accompanying reviews, then we should not assume that they are not accurate if they are all low, it’s because they were listened to streaming (which, if they did listen to them, would be likely).

In the original example, where everything is given a blanket 1 star, it’s more likely to be abuse (though not necessarily so), and Occam’s Razor is probably the way to go. Bump it on the head, and be down with it. But say there is a discography where everything is a mix of 1 and 2 stars? What then? Is it abuse? It could well be sometime that has gone through a discography, and found that nothing is particularly to their taste, but some have more merit than others.

Is it abuse of the rating system? I don’t believe so.

Thus the argument. Because we can’t assume that someone is incapable of coming to a conclusion of how they feel about an album because they have chosen to stream it.

Just my opinion, of course.



Irrespective of source material, the ability to rate without review was originally designed to facilitate non-English speaking PA members being able to contribute to the site. We all might agree this a laudable intention. It wasn't designed to allow individuals clearly too lazy to get out the bath for a pee to have the admins waste time second guessing their intentions with blanket low and high ratings across entire swathes of discographies. If you have posted on these forums even just once, there is really no excuse for a ratings only review. Too busy to write a review? get off the forum pilgrim. The criteria for what constitutes a permissible review is incredibly indulgent i.e as long as you don't actually slander or defame it usually gets published. The site is fueled by articulated opinion not the petty arithmetic of a sports league table.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Isn't this thread for reporting inappropriate ratings? Much as I'm enjoying this back and forth it should move elsewhere.

Yes, and I considered not arguing here, as potentially inappropriate. However, there was a suggestion (whether by implication or inference) that ratings are inappropriate if they come from an “inferior” source. For that reason alone, I felt it appropriate to counter the argument. Because it would be a very slippery slope to start upon.


With you 100% there. 
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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Isn't this thread for reporting inappropriate ratings? Much as I'm enjoying this back and forth it should move elsewhere.

Yes, and I considered not arguing here, as potentially inappropriate. However, there was a suggestion (whether by implication or inference) that ratings are inappropriate if they come from an “inferior” source. For that reason alone, I felt it appropriate to counter the argument. Because it would be a very slippery slope to start upon.

If one reviewer has given ratings for every album in a discography, without accompanying reviews, then we should not assume that they are not accurate if they are all low, it’s because they were listened to streaming (which, if they did listen to them, would be likely).

In the original example, where everything is given a blanket 1 star, it’s more likely to be abuse (though not necessarily so), and Occam’s Razor is probably the way to go. Bump it on the head, and be down with it. But say there is a discography where everything is a mix of 1 and 2 stars? What then? Is it abuse? It could well be sometime that has gone through a discography, and found that nothing is particularly to their taste, but some have more merit than others.

Is it abuse of the rating system? I don’t believe so.

Thus the argument. Because we can’t assume that someone is incapable of coming to a conclusion of how they feel about an album because they have chosen to stream it.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.

Inferior is subjective, though. The only way this would be helpful is if every review stated what source it came from, without claiming it to be superior or inferior. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Simple. If it sounds like crap, say so.

Sure, but if that’s the case, then you don’t need to state the source.

My point is that, objectively, if all things are produced to their potential, then an LP is an inferior source compared to lossless streaming. But I suspect that even were that the case, ExitTheLemming would still think the stream was the inferior source. Hence why it becomes subjective, irrelevant of any “real” objectivity.

As you say, it is far more simple than that. Regardless of the source, if it sounds like crap, say so. 🤗



No-one is inferring that the audio by virtue of being streamed is somehow indicative of the sound quality. I don't have any subscriptions to services like Spotify but I doubt any such services out there can stream at 1411kbps (although with touted Hi Res Audio offerings from Amazon, Primephonic, Qobuz and Tidal this may change but it will come at a commensurate price for the consumer) I purchase a lot of downloadable music in FLAC format which is lossless and am happy to consider such a format suitable for the purposes of reviewing an album so I don't consider myself in thrall to physical media
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I wouldn't bother to review anything if the source fidelity is no better than something like You Tube (around 126 kbps) or MP3 (320 kbps) I'm guessing (if I cared) it probably depends on what sort of subscription you pay on Spotify which dictates the sound quality you receive but AFAIK that would either be 160 kbps or 'premium' 320 kbps (same as MP3) For me, and I'm no audiophile, neither of those does justice to the music under review. Let's hope you're not studying audio recording technology but something like English literature instead, as a written review makes all this frothing and gnashing over petty arithmetic start to resemble a sports science graduate's acceptance speech Big smile

Wow. Pretty condescending. Way to make people feel welcome here. Petty arithmetic aside - you brought money into it by the way - if an artist decides to supply their work to what is the most popular music service around currently, then they're clearly happy with people listening to it and reviewing it at that level of quality - I believe you're right and its 320kbps.

Quite laughably my full time career is as an acoustic & vibration engineer for a car company, I spend way too long talking about the subjecitvity of sound quality to give two hoots about it in my personal life. And back at uni doing something else, because its S#*t and I hate it :-)

Suggest we all just accept that any kind of rating is subjective and that people are allowed to have different ipinions and ways of doing things?
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.


Inferior is subjective, though. The only way this would be helpful is if every review stated what source it came from, without claiming it to be superior or inferior. 🤷🏻‍♂️


Simple. If it sounds like crap, say so.


Sure, but if that’s the case, then you don’t need to state the source.

My point is that, objectively, if all things are produced to their potential, then an LP is an inferior source compared to lossless streaming. But I suspect that even were that the case, ExitTheLemming would still think the stream was the inferior source. Hence why it becomes subjective, irrelevant of any “real” objectivity.

As you say, it is far more simple than that. Regardless of the source, if it sounds like crap, say so. 🤗

I understand what you're saying but generally an MP3 file sounds bad as opposed to most CD remsters. Some things are a constant.
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Isn't this thread for reporting inappropriate ratings? Much as I'm enjoying this back and forth it should move elsewhere. 

From my perspective while I understand that financially no big deal to listen to Opeth's or Dream Theaters entire discography on Spotify I still struggle to understand why you'd do it if you worked out 4 or 5 albums in that the artist offered nothing you like. You'd really put yourself through the whole discography just to be able to add a one star rating? I still find it somewhat unbelievable versus someone just clicking every album unheard.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.

Inferior is subjective, though. The only way this would be helpful is if every review stated what source it came from, without claiming it to be superior or inferior. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Simple. If it sounds like crap, say so.

Sure, but if that’s the case, then you don’t need to state the source.

My point is that, objectively, if all things are produced to their potential, then an LP is an inferior source compared to lossless streaming. But I suspect that even were that the case, ExitTheLemming would still think the stream was the inferior source. Hence why it becomes subjective, irrelevant of any “real” objectivity.

As you say, it is far more simple than that. Regardless of the source, if it sounds like crap, say so. 🤗
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.

Inferior is subjective, though. The only way this would be helpful is if every review stated what source it came from, without claiming it to be superior or inferior. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Simple. If it sounds like crap, say so, as it's no more subjective than the music review itself.

Edited by SteveG - December 23 2020 at 06:45
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.

Inferior is subjective, though. The only way this would be helpful is if every review stated what source it came from, without claiming it to be superior or inferior. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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I'm with ExitTheLemming on this one. I wouldn't review an album from an inferior audio source. But for those that do it would be helpful for them to state exactly where a particular piece of music was sourced from.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

It's perfectly fine to base purchasing decisions on whatever audio fidelity you can get by whatever legal means is available but for me, I think it detrimental to the artist to base a published review (positive or negative) without using the highest possible fidelity version available of the recording. In most instances this can be obtained for precisely zero cash as a CD from a Public Lending Library. 

And yet, many record labels and bands will not release physical media for review prior to release meaning many published reviews are from streaming, so clearly they are not as worried about this being detrimental as you are,

As for the highest possible fidelity, well that is up for debate, and has been for years. CDs have the capacity and potential for higher fidelity as, and with a far greater dynamic range than, vinyl - yet some people will still prefer to listen to (and review) the LP version. Lossless streaming and downloads exist, and are equal fidelity to CD.

You seem needlessly stuck in the past, but then I’m sure I look just as stubborn about some of my ideas from the outside. We all, thankfully, see (and hear) the world differently, so I’m not really judging you. If that’s what works for you, then by all means stick to it! But for many people, there’s really nothing wrong (or detrimental) at all in listening to, or reviewing from, streaming.



Fair comment. If I seem stuck in the past it's probably because I'm a cantankerous 58 year old Scot who struggles to get his balding head around how music is consumed in 2020. For me reviewing at anything less than 1411kbps is like visiting a poorly lit art gallery and hoping I can take a sneaky piccy of one of the exhibits with a low resolution camera


Edited by ExittheLemming - December 23 2020 at 07:14
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

It's perfectly fine to base purchasing decisions on whatever audio fidelity you can get by whatever legal means is available but for me, I think it detrimental to the artist to base a published review (positive or negative) without using the highest possible fidelity version available of the recording. In most instances this can be obtained for precisely zero cash as a CD from a Public Lending Library. 

And yet, many record labels and bands will not release physical media for review prior to release meaning many published reviews are from streaming, so clearly they are not as worried about this being detrimental as you are,

As for the highest possible fidelity, well that is up for debate, and has been for years. CDs have the capacity and potential for higher fidelity as, and with a far greater dynamic range than, vinyl - yet some people will still prefer to listen to (and review) the LP version. Lossless streaming and downloads exist, and are equal fidelity to CD.

You seem needlessly stuck in the past, but then I’m sure I look just as stubborn about some of my ideas from the outside. We all, thankfully, see (and hear) the world differently, so I’m not really judging you. If that’s what works for you, then by all means stick to it! But for many people, there’s really nothing wrong (or detrimental) at all in listening to, or reviewing from, streaming.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As things stand Opeth have (including live releases) around 18 albums. Is anyone going to spend close to $200 just to hear albums they are 'generally confident' they wont like? You are either wealthier than beyond the wildest dreams of avarice or dafter than than a sectioned brush. Let's see if the second possibility stands up to even the flimsiest of scrutiny: Do you use a public lending library to source your review copies? (notwithstanding it being highly unlikely most would have an entire artist's discography available)

Seriously? Or are you trolling? As much as I dislike trolls, in this instance I sincerely hope that you are. It is possibly to listen to entire discographies to work out what you like from them, and purchase accordingly. If I had to buy everything first, to discover whether I liked it, I’d hardly be buying anything, never moving out of my comfort zone, and missing out in discovering all manner of bands and artists I now love.

Back in the day, I would listen to albums in the record store before spending my hard earned money. Now I listen first by streaming. And if you think it’s not possible to review an album via a stream, then you are mistaken. It is entirely possible, of course, that it won’t work for you, but it is ridiculous assume everyone else might have the same difficulty.



It's perfectly fine to base purchasing decisions on whatever audio fidelity you can get by whatever legal means is available but for me, I think it detrimental to the artist to base a published review (positive or negative) without using the highest possible fidelity version available of the recording. In most instances this can be obtained for precisely zero cash as a CD from a Public Lending Library.
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Originally posted by bartymj bartymj wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As things stand Opeth have (including live releases) around 18 albums. Is anyone going to spend close to $200 just to hear albums they are 'generally confident' they wont like? You are either wealthier than beyond the wildest dreams of avarice or dafter than than a sectioned brush. Let's see if the second possibility stands up to even the flimsiest of scrutiny: Do you use a public lending library to source your review copies? (notwithstanding it being highly unlikely most would have an entire artist's discography available)

Well what a ridiculous post this is :D

As an (im)mature student I can pay a grand total of a discounted £4.99 a month for Spotify. Something which I have done for 9 months now. Using mostly Spotify and the fact that under Covid conditions I'm working from home on my own and need some background noise to keep me from total insanity, I can tell you in those 9 months I've listened to exactly 598 different albums on Spotify. Basic maths, at that rate I've paid 7.5 pence for each album listen, which even on my pauper's salary I can afford and think is a good return.

Yes, Spotify is seen as the devil, and artists don't get much money for their output via that streaming site - but if they upload their content there then why shouldn't I listen to it...

Opeth currently have on Spotify: Orchid, Morningrise, My Arms Your Hearse, Still Life, Blackwater Park, Deliverance, Damnation, Lamentations (Live), Ghost Reveries, The Roundhouse Tapes, Watershed, The Candlelight Years, Live at the Albert Hall, Heritage, Peaceville Presents, Pale Communion, Deliverance & Damnation Remixed, Sorceress, Garden of the Titans (Live), and In Cauda Venenum.

I would argue you'd be dafter than a sectioned brush NOT to make use of this wonder of modern technology. In fact, I've been introduced to several previously unknown-to-me prog artists simply because its cheap and easy to explore.

Apologies to everyone else for once again going off-topic on this thread but I was directly asked a question about my own sanity and felt obliged to respond...


I wouldn't bother to review anything if the source fidelity is no better than something like You Tube (around 126 kbps) or MP3 (320 kbps) I'm guessing (if I cared) it probably depends on what sort of subscription you pay on Spotify which dictates the sound quality you receive but AFAIK that would either be 160 kbps or 'premium' 320 kbps (same as MP3) For me, and I'm no audiophile, neither of those does justice to the music under review. Let's hope you're not studying audio recording technology but something like English literature instead, as a written review makes all this frothing and gnashing over petty arithmetic start to resemble a sports science graduate's acceptance speech Big smile
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I've rated and reviewed nearly 800 albums so far, and I've never been tempted to give any of those albums a 1-star rating - not even to King Crimson & Van der Graaf Generator. Wink
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As things stand Opeth have (including live releases) around 18 albums. Is anyone going to spend close to $200 just to hear albums they are 'generally confident' they wont like? You are either wealthier than beyond the wildest dreams of avarice or dafter than than a sectioned brush. Let's see if the second possibility stands up to even the flimsiest of scrutiny: Do you use a public lending library to source your review copies? (notwithstanding it being highly unlikely most would have an entire artist's discography available)

Seriously? Or are you trolling? As much as I dislike trolls, in this instance I sincerely hope that you are. It is possibly to listen to entire discographies to work out what you like from them, and purchase accordingly. If I had to buy everything first, to discover whether I liked it, I’d hardly be buying anything, never moving out of my comfort zone, and missing out in discovering all manner of bands and artists I now love.

Back in the day, I would listen to albums in the record store before spending my hard earned money. Now I listen first by streaming. And if you think it’s not possible to review an album via a stream, then you are mistaken. It is entirely possible, of course, that it won’t work for you, but it is ridiculous assume everyone else might have the same difficulty.
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