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Interactive Poll: Sounds of Asia |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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First impression: In this case, I think: if they had added a keyboard, even acoustic, and the vocals, of any kind ...
Edited by jamesbaldwin - September 12 2021 at 07:11 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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First impressions: - Jambinai: Onda / Prelude Minimalistic atmospheric song, which touches the new age, short, it seems like an intro to me. - Kodo: Stomp. Short percussive piece, which might have been interesting if it had a development - Geinoh Yamashirogumi: Osorezan. Long piece, an evocative mini suite based on voices and percussion. Contender
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15384 |
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Ultimately I managed to click myself through to the playlist a few times without server errors ![]() I wasn't tempted to vote for, but still like... The Balinese Monkey chant... big fun, if probably a bit far from my cultural setup; Fatih Erkoc - not my style really but I have to admire the vocal performance, and listening to end end ultimately it's quite something; Kodo: I have seen something like this live, surely not bad but with the existing competition can't win in 1:40. I have a hard time voting against... Altin Gul and The Chieftains, really well done and fascinating pop music to which teh Asian element attracts me a lot; Isfar Sarabski - this is just high quality stuff and a good mix of different influences well brought together. I have a very hard time voting against... Mono: I love post rock and this is a great example - just went for those where I can hear Asia more clearly this time... Monks of DipTseChokLing Monast: Meditative music that works very well for me and has a richer sound spectrum than most I have heard of this kind... meditation however is different from finding a winner in a competition... Jambinai: For a long time I was convinced I would be voting for this, really great stuff of the kind that will always get me, but ultimately decided to only vote for one of this and Black String and the latter had a 0.1% higher fascination factor. Still left with four I guess, so... Black String goes out, too, as the Geinoh Yamashirogumi one is such a feast and still, in my perception, the same "direction" in some sense. That leaves me with: 3) Dewa Alit & Gamelan Salukat: Yeh Ngetel/Dripping Water: Is this traditional? It sounds so strikingly modern! Maybe I'd play this less often than Black String, Jambinai or some others, but how this is connected to some of the most groundbreaking 20th century Western music is just striking. 2) Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan: This is addictive as the best (or worst) drug... 1) Geinoh Yamashirogum: SO impressive this one! Could be contender for best out of all interactive polls, surely top 3. As always I didn't check whose suggestions I have voted for (I kind of prefer if this is not indicated in the poll, as I may be biased by it to some extent, like "I have voted for X last time, so now I vote for Y" or something), so I'll now look who got my votes... ...some of the usual suspects.
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Hmm, interesting read. I'm not knowledgeable enough to state something more general about music made in Asia or one of the Asian countries, however, I'm very reluctant to generalize about cultures or about artistic expressions... And I'm very weary to think that there could exist such a thing as "a pure form" of ("ethnic") music, as their is no "pure form" in painting or in cinema (even when there have been claims to it; e.g. "cinéma pur"). Next step would be to think that there is a "pure form" of this or that culture and then we arrive in very dangerous territory, in my opinion. We probably know our own culture the best, but would have a damn hard time to define it by just a couple of keywords: there is so much diversity within our own culture that I suspect that there is as much diversity in other cultures, which generate a wide variety of artistic expressions. Bringing them down to a limited number of characteristics may help us understand some aspects of that culture, but many other aspects will have been left out and could lead to other views... What I find very interesting with this poll theme is that it has shown this diversity of the artistic/musical expressions. In my eyes (and ears), this richness is much more telling than any generalization about it could be. And in the end, it is just about personal appreciation and preferences... |
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mathman0806 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6846 |
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Meant to add this. Something interesting in regards to traditional Korean music compared to Japanese and Chinese music. Black String is very improvisational in their approach. The following is a question asked to the leader of Black String and her reply.
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Snicolette ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 6068 |
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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Snicolette ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 6068 |
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I also got the meditative aspect of it, Christian, I found it very soothing, albeit not "musical," in the sense of certain kinds of patterns that are typically thought of as "music," or presentation, such as verse/chorus/verse. It certainly was organized sound, however, which is another definition of music. |
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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mathman0806 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6846 |
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Thanks to Mike and Nickie for voting for Black String.
The leader of the group is Yoon Jeong Heo who plays the geomungo (tradition Korean zither). Also known as hyeongeum, which is translated to "black zither" and where the group derives it's name. Most of their tracks are instrumentals but they do have some with vocals and I nearly posted this one, which I found riveting, called Exhale-Puri. A very shamanistic song in the way it's sung. The expelling of "bad energy" felt very appropriate for the past year, though the song was on their 2019 album released prior to the pandemic. Also want to show a video for another Korean band Dongyand Gozupa that falls within a similar soundscape though the lead instrument for this group is the yanggeum (Korean hammered dulcimer). |
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mathman0806 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6846 |
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My votes:
1. Nursat Fateh Ali Khan: Mustt Mustt - I had heard one of the other tracks Lorenzo posted and had been meaning to listen to more of Ali Khan's music. 2. Geinoh Yamashirogumi: Osorezan - I do recall seeing Greg posting this elsewhere as I remember the scream, but had not listened to it in full. I also know their work from the Akira soundtrack. 3. The Chieftains ft. Akiko Jano: Sake in the Jar - I enjoyed the very Japanese vocals, rhythms, and mix with the Celtic. Honorable mentions: Jambinai and Mono - I knew both of these beforehand, even though I had not heard the live version of the Mono track, I do have the studio album Nowhere Now Here along with several others. Altin Gun - Was a finalist and narrowly missed out. Isfar Sarabski - I preferred the "jazzier" parts with band more than the solo piano playing, which was very good.
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15384 |
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From something I just read: "In the present postcolonial world, the notion of an authentic culture as an autonomous internally coherent universe no longer seems tenable, except perhaps as a useful fiction - or a revealing distortion" (Renato Rosaldo, cited by Paul Feyerabend) Feyerabend himself adds: "If every culture is potentially all cultures, then cultural differences lose their ineffability and become special and changeable manifestations of a common human nature." By the way @Lorenzo: I don't know to what extent and in which sense what Nakamura does is "typically Japanese", neither do I know which aspects of it are of Japanese origin, and to be honest, I don't mind much. Or let's say, I'd be interested in the information, but it wouldn't affect my listening. I know that he is not alone in Japan doing such things, and I suspect a certain connection to Japanese fascination with technology, and a certain extreme strain in Japanese culture that can manifest itself in very experimental avantgarde art and music... but then this is not only Japanese, see above. I should also say that I don't normally listen to Nakamura's music analytically. It has a certain direct, meditative, enrichening effect on me. One could maybe say that such music integrates more in my life and environment and enhances it. I can perceive it as autonomous music, however it has more interaction with my general perception than most other music has (for example I can perceive other sounds and noises happening at the same time as integrating with it).
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TCat ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 07 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 11612 |
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Here are my votes:
1. Black String 2. Nursat Fateh Ali Khan 3. Isfar Sarabski & Band Mono would have been a top 3 for sure if I wasn't already very familiar with their excellent music and already own several of their albums.
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Mila-13 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2021 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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A personal reflection on our
Asia poll.
The ethnic music in its pure form
tells us a lot about the specific culture not only in terms of music but also
in terms of the cultural characteristics and inner being of people from that
cultural group. I think I can recognize this in particular with respect to Eastern
and Southeastern Asian culture (Kodo JPN, Dewa Alit & Gamelan Salukat and Balinese
Monkey Chant). Corporate music exists in different shapes but here we can see
it in its distinctive form. The collective is clearly placed above the self
which is reflected in East and Southeast Asian social structure to date. Therefore, the increased need for individual expression doesn’t surprise me, it is rather a logical result. Japan is f.e. a pioneer in the field of video game music which offers plenty of space for individual work. My suggested but not nominated piece by Kikuo ft. Hanatan is a good example here. In an intensified form we can see it in the field of improvisational music. The Onkyo music movement emerging from Japan in the late 1990s aptly demonstrate this (Toshimaru Nakamura). Geinoh Yamashirogumi is another variety of this desire to experiment, here within a collective, and in the form of their re-interpretation of folk music, as well as their fusion of various traditional musical styles with modern instrumentation. Of course, technical progress does affect the creative process everywhere and in many fields but it seems to me that this development particularely corresponds the East Asian way of being. I wonder whether I am on the right track or is it rather a preconceived idea that I have about East Asian nature? Edited by Mila-13 - September 11 2021 at 16:04 |
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Mila-13 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2021 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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This was an interesting
and diverse edition, in terms of cultural backgrounds or musical genres. I would
like to thank you all for being part of this musical journey! Since many of you have already commented on the submitted songs or musical pieces I decided to add just a few details about the instrumentation or cultural backgrounds. On one hand we got to
hear pure ethnic music from Bali and Tibet, the latter with a religious
connotation and on the other hand different kinds of fusion with ethnic or folk
elements, plus a few exceptions. Ethnic Music Kodo is a Japanese taiko drum ensemble."Taiko" are a broad range of Japanese percussion drums. In Japanese the term refers to any kind of drum, but outside Japan, it is used specifically to refer to any of the various Japanese drums called wadaiko. They are still used today in religious ceremonies as well as in folk festivals such as thanksgiving and in the past in warfare. Dewa Alit & Gamelan Salukat: A music ensemble from Bali playing “gamelan”, their traditional ensemble music where various traditional percussive instruments are used i.a. metallophones played by mallets and a set of hand-played drums called "kendhang", which register the beat. The "kemanak" (a banana shaped idiophone) and "gangsa" (another metallophone) are commonly used gamelan instruments in Java. Balinese Monkey Chant is a “kecak”, a form of Balinese Hindu dance
and music drama that was developed in the 1930s in Bali and is traditionally
primarily performed by men. The Monks of the Dip Tse Chok Ling Monastery Ritual Music of Tibetan Buddhism: Musical chanting, most often in Tibetan or Sanskrit, is an integral part of the religion. These chants are complex, often recitations of sacred texts or in celebration of various festivals. Yang chanting, performed without metrical timing, is accompanied by resonant drums and low, sustained syllables. Each instrument mimics the sound of an animal, the drums being the footsteps of elephants and the horns mimic bird calls. Individual schools and even individual monasteries, maintain their own chant traditions. to be continued Edited by Mila-13 - September 10 2021 at 17:53 |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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First impression Ten minutes of electronic sounds (noises) often prolonged on the same wavelength. Here we are in the most extreme field of the electronic avant-garde, beyond which it could reach Cage's minute of silence. In these cases, a person can go from exaltation to contempt. I, as I have said several times, if I don't hear the music, if there isn't a musical score, a composition, but everything boils down to pure sound / noise, I remain suspicious, very suspicious and not just because I dont try the pleasure of listening, but also because Imho I find the operation conceptually and artistically doubtful, I hardly distinguish it from the pure research exercise - in the same way I am skeptical about long and virtuosic instrumental pieces, which to me often seem like exercises in style. So, surely interesting from the point of view of intellectual curiosity, but in this case too extreme to enrich my heart or my imagination. EDIT: Now I see: it was posted by Christian. In this case, I wonder, is there a way to recognize the Japanese origin of the piece? Is it a style of electronic music well developed in Japan? Edited by jamesbaldwin - September 10 2021 at 12:35 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Snicolette ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 6068 |
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"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
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JD ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18446 |
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Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Mila-13 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 02 2021 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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My votes go to: Jambinai Nursat Fateh Ali Khan Altin Gün I will comment on the music a bit later. It's not easy to comment on such a complex musical theme like this one, esp. for me as a non-native English speaker. Edited by Mila-13 - September 08 2021 at 13:16 |
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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After having listened to all of the suggestions last weekend I knew I had to come back to some to listen again to have a more clear opinion on them. Today I had a more focused listening session and it changed some of my earlier appreciations...When this poll theme was announced, I was a bit afraid of the "traditional" music offerings that would come by - those that are often, and stupidly, qualified as "world music". I'm generally not fan of it, though sometimes there are good surprises. But, in the end, my own tastes dominate in my choices. So, no extensive commenting, here are my votes. 3. At first I thought "gamelan music, oh no, here we go..." but upon the first notes I was fascinated by this contemporary piece. A great composition that works well from start to finish, despite the gamelans! So, a first vote for Dewa Alit & Gamelan Salukat with Dripping Water. 2. (or maybe 1) The biggest surprise was for me probably this piece: by its length (how dare you to put up a 20min. piece ![]() 1. (or maybe 2, thus): This should be of no surprise to some of you, yes I'm that predictable sometimes, but Toshimaru Nakamura piece is indeed right up my ally: electronic music (with a Steve Reich like part in it) from Japan, I have to dive into that, I guess. And I'm glad you chose this one and not Cornelius (whose visuals are wonderful - will vote that in your spin-off poll - but the music was less interesting to me)... Some other considerations: - I liked all three of the post-rocky nominations,
but regarding Jambinai I changed my take on it after several listens:
First I very much liked it and the integration of the traditional
instruments works very well, but upon subsequent listens apart from the
instrumentation it ticked too many boxes of the post rock clichés for
me. Not bad at all, but musically I found Mono's offering - also
ticking quite some of those same boxes - a bit more interesting and
varied, with a nice integration of the orchestra. But in the end I found the Hanging Gardens of Babylon by Black String the most interesting and original of the three; musically very
rich and a nice and effective mix of tradition and modernity. It ended almost on the podium. - After subsequent listens I started to like Mustt Mustt by Nursat Fateh Ali Khan more and more: a nice funky groove underneath a wonderful, more traditional performance. Not enough however to get to the podium. - The Chieftains arrive to integrate the Irish and the Japanese in a very effective way, as if they have the same roots, almost. Nice listen. Not nominated, but could have been contenders: - Harry Partch - Delusion of the Fury; another great contemporary piece of music. - Kikuo ft.
Hanatan - The Girl That Sells Misfortune; quite intriguing and effective, nice discovery. |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 38363 |
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^ An interesting read. I don't think it's all subjective and would argue that one can be more objective when one has greater knowledge and familiarity. And while personal biases are a common factor in appreciation, one can utilise frameworks of analysis for a more objective evaluation within that framework (even if biases are behind the framework). It's harder to judge when you don't have as many reference points and you haven't learnt "the musical language" so much. My issue sometimes is when people without adequate justification claim something to be good or bad from an objective standpoint, yet it clearly comes down to personal taste and often lack of experience from that person when it comes to bad (the right comparisons help). I don't take a deeply analytical approach to how I choose in these, I'd say that I go with what most appeals to me in some way.
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"Questions are a burden to others; answers a prison for oneself" (The Prisoner, 1967).
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Small dissertation To evaluate, give a balanced judgment on an artistic opera, a person must be a good connoisseur. The neophyte, the one who discovers an art, tends to get enthusiastic easily and to exchange works for masterpieces that, with the passage of time, he will consider little more than modest operas. quantity affects quality: when you've seen or heard or read a lot, it's harder to say: this is an absolute masterpiece. Now, I know Italian music well, I know pop, folk and rock, and the prog of the seventies and eighties well. I know I can make balanced judgments, that is, I have points of reference, my own criteria that I formed together with my sensitivity (issues of emotional approach). Before Logan tells me that it is all subjective I say that my judgments are balanced according to my criteria ;-), that is, I know very well that I am talking about my own criteria (here I am speaking as a music critic, in my small way). That is, in other words, if one studied my judgments, he would find a logic in it, which he can approve or not, but he would find a logic and, after a careful study, he will be able to predict a good part of the my judgments (I do not say everything) Specifying that there is always something imponderable in judgments, at least mine, because there is the emotional, passionate component, which for me as an Italian is very important and often unpredictable, the fact remains that my judgments have a logic recognizable. Which is not strictly correlated to my tastes, as I often say: I can judge an art-work as modest (a painting, a film, a novel, a long playing) and have it among my favorites, for example if it is a disco I often listen to it Now, all of this happens with the art you know well, and therefore the music you know well. If, on the other hand, you compare yourself with the music you dont know well, for example, in my case, jazz, or electronic or Indian music with few Western characteristics, I feel displaced, I don't have solid criteria, a stable, balanced way to evaluate, and therefore my judgments are likely to coincide with my tastes. And this doesn't just happen to me: For example: the song Within You, Without You by George Harrison in SgT Pepper's is judged sometimes well, sometimes badly by the critics, from those who shout at the masterpiece to those who cry to disaster, (a critic said it is music for a poor Indian movie, worthy of a beginner). This is because a Western music critic who does not know Indian music is greatly influenced by his tastes, by what the music inspires him, and therefore you can find diametrically opposed judgments. Personally, I consider it a beautiful song, albeit tiring (the melody of the singing is always the same, the rhythm is slow and there are many stop and go). The fact that Indian arrangements have been mixed with the western strings arranged by George Martin for me makes it a great successful experiment that touches a remarkable climax of emotional intensity in the instrumental parts. But I understand that if it hadn't been for the string part, maybe I would have liked Indian music alone less and I would have been less able to value it. In conclusion, with the Asian music of this poll, I find myself unprepared, my judgments will be unbalanced and weighted and I will choose a lot according to my tastes. Normally I make a compromise between my judgments and my tastes, here I will have to go only by instinct, choose based on tastes and... that's all. Edited by jamesbaldwin - September 07 2021 at 18:14 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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