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The first suite
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Points: 12754 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2023 at 00:42
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite.
It seems you're mistaking objective with wrong. Using an objective criterion indicates using the correct criterion. Just ask for early sidelong songs instead. If that's what you're looking for.

You can't just make up a new meaning for the term suite on the spot. It has existed and has been used as a term in the arts for centuries, and it has an actual, specific meaning.

So Close to the Edge is not a suite, right?

It's a multipart song divided into I. The Solid Time Of Change, II: Total Mass Retain, III. I Get Up, I Get Down and IV: Seasons Of Man. And conciously spliced together while taking insipration from composers such as Sibelius and how he composed symphonies using different sounding "movements". So Close to the Edge is much closer to the meaning of a what a suite means than In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - which is pretty much an extended jam. Whether a song is sidelong or not is obviously beside the point. Seriously don't you see how silly that looks? I can't believe I'm discussing this. Supper's Ready isn't sidelong btw and I guess that automatically disqualifies it from all suite-related discussions - unlike Iron Butterfly's overlong little ditty.
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Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

What about "Days of Future Passed," by The Moody Blues, November 1967?

Great suggestion! Days of Future Passed is listed as "a suite of songs" on Wikipedia. Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Zappa, Lumpy Gravy, August 1967.
Yes, Zappa makes the cut, at least in my book.
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Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

What about "Days of Future Passed," by The Moody Blues, November 1967?

In my opinion, it is not a suite. It is divided into many songs that have a beginning and an end.

As is always, you just have to agree on the initial definition.

I tried to give a definition of a suite that coincides with side long song.
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Points: 45037 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2023 at 16:50
I'm In the Garden of Eden whenever I hear this song, but I've never thought of it as a suite, even though it occupies the whole side of an album. To me, a suite is a series of distinct (and often named) musical movements making up part of a greater whole, such as Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells or Supper's Ready by Genesis, and if I'm wrong about that, then you can knock me down with an 
Iron Butterfly. Tongue






Edited by Psychedelic Paul - April 09 2023 at 16:51
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What about "Days of Future Passed," by The Moody Blues, November 1967?
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Close To The Edge is a side-long song, but I don't think it'd be considered a suite, even though the song itself has different named sections.
 
This track is called "Elegant Gypsy Suite":
 
 
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I think you're talking about something usually just referred to as a 'side-long song' or something. But the earliest one I can think of is Zappa's Return of the Son of Monster Magnet from 1966. Close To The Edge is a side-long song, but I don't think it'd be considered a suite, even though the song itself has different named sections.

When talking about suites as in a string of songs that go together, it's another Zappa example that comes to mind for me as the earliest: the second side of Absolutely Free, The MOI American Pageant. Even though it's not a single "song" like the Procul example is, it does all go together without breaks and feels a bit incomplete when listening to most parts (except maybe Brown Shoes Don't Make It) on their own.


Edited by Stressed Cheese - April 09 2023 at 16:05
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite.
It seems you're mistaking objective with wrong. Using an objective criterion indicates using the correct criterion. Just ask for early sidelong songs instead. If that's what you're looking for.

You can't just make up a new meaning for the term suite on the spot. It has existed and has been used as a term in the arts for centuries, and it has an actual, specific meaning.

So Close to the Edge is not a suite, right?
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite.
It seems you're mistaking objective with wrong. Using an objective criterion indicates using the correct criterion. Just ask for early sidelong songs instead. If that's what you're looking for.

You can't just make up a new meaning for the term suite on the spot. It has existed and has been used as a term in the arts for centuries, and it has an actual, specific meaning.
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Points: 6052 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2023 at 12:20
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Zappa, Lumpy Gravy, August 1967.

Oh, yes, 1967. 


Shall we try to put the suites in order until the end of 1969?
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Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Not sure I'd call it a suite. Noodle, Jam, Psych sure.
But let's look at what a suite is:
a) an instrumental composition consisting of several movements in the same key based on or derived from dance rhythms, esp in the baroque period
b) an instrumental composition in several movements less closely connected than a sonata
c) a piece of music containing movements based on or extracted from music already used in an opera, ballet, play, etc

So I'd offer up the following as being more appropriate.

November 1968
The Nice - Ars Vita Longa Brevis - Symphony For Group And Orchestra (18:20)
- a) Prelude
- b) 1st Movement: Awakenings
- c) 2nd Movement: Realisation
- d) 3rd Movement: Acceptance "Brandenburger"
- e) 4th Movement: Denial
- f) Coda - Extension To The Big Note

EDIT

But yes , as I just saw Procol Harem's release was in September 1968 in US, BUT Dec. In UK.

I think it is difficult to give a definition of a suite. Many criteria are subjective. We should analyse the musical score to undertand if there are true movements. For example, Close to the edge is considered a suite, it is divided into several movements, but to me it sounds like a verse-chorus song. 

That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Points: 12769 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2023 at 11:36
Zappa, Lumpy Gravy, August 1967.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Is In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida the first suite in rock history?

It was recorded on 27 May 1968.

By the word suite I mean those pieces of music that occupy one side of an LP.
But that's not what a suite is. I've never heard In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida called a suite by anyone. Because it isn't. In Held Twas In is.
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JD View Drop Down
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Not sure I'd call it a suite. Noodle, Jam, Psych sure.
But let's look at what a suite is:
a) an instrumental composition consisting of several movements in the same key based on or derived from dance rhythms, esp in the baroque period
b) an instrumental composition in several movements less closely connected than a sonata
c) a piece of music containing movements based on or extracted from music already used in an opera, ballet, play, etc

So I'd offer up the following as being more appropriate.

November 1968
The Nice - Ars Vita Longa Brevis - Symphony For Group And Orchestra (18:20)
- a) Prelude
- b) 1st Movement: Awakenings
- c) 2nd Movement: Realisation
- d) 3rd Movement: Acceptance "Brandenburger"
- e) 4th Movement: Denial
- f) Coda - Extension To The Big Note

EDIT

But yes , as I just saw Procol Harem's release was in September 1968 in US, BUT Dec. In UK.


Edited by JD - April 09 2023 at 11:23
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I would say maybe more like In Held Twas In I. I always thought of In- a- Gadda- Da- Vida more like just a really long song (album side). 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 09 2023 at 11:05
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Points: 46480 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2023 at 10:42
Could be, I thought it was Procol Harum's In Held 'Twas in I, but that one came a few months afterwards. 
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Is In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida the first suite in rock history?

It was recorded on 27 May 1968.

By the word suite I mean those pieces of music that occupy one side of an LP.
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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