Politically incorrect prog??

Stressed Cheese wrote: It comes down to the old question, "is it okay to punch a nazi?". Some people like to over-think this question, and come up with addendums like "who decides who's a nazi?"

I've lived/worked long enough (while a struggling artist:) in places/comminities with radical lefties, freaks, skinheads/punks and ageing paranoid hippies to overthink this this question. I wouldn't trust any of the ones among them who simply loved to fight (and bragged about it) to decide who was "Nazi enough" to deserve to be beaten up by them. I'm sure they might as well have ended up as nazis themselves. I didn't notice much of a difference in their a****le behaviour. My personal answer is no, it's not okay to punch anyone who hasn't been violent in any way themselves.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Atavachron wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I don't know Henry Rollins personally, but I know descriptions of him having had anger issues in the past. But I'm not sure he's quite that petty.  This does not "bother" me - I merely find it intriguing that you would be so sure about how he reacts to satire. That level of confidence would suggest to me that there's some interviews or statements to that effect. No, just an impression.   You don't mock someone's work and then expect the artist to not care, free speech or not---  in fact, if 'free speech' is one's excuse, they should expect to be confronted.   You can't just do whatever you want and then hide behind free speech and somehow hope someone doesn't want to break your nose.   It's irrational. I don't think Lars mocked Henry Rollins - he mocked Joe Biden, who is a pathological liar, which makes the sarcastic video perfectly reasonable. Of course Rollins might object to the video for various reasons. But in a free society people have to be able to express their opinion without fear of violence. If you disagree with that - fine, but then you have to accept the fact that you are against a free society. You didn't say one way or the other - so suppose Henry Rollins today sees this video, gets angry, goes to "Lars"'s house, rings, and when he opens, Rollins punches him in the nose. Ok or not?

Stressed Cheese wrote: Atavachron wrote: No, just an impression.   You don't mock someone's work and then expect the artist to not care, free speech or not---  in fact, if 'free speech' is one's excuse, they should expect to be confronted.   You can't just do whatever you want and then hide behind free speech and somehow hope someone doesn't want to break your nose.   It's irrational. Right. Some remarks should probably lead you to expect people might wanna punch you over them. Some remarks warrant a good punch, even. Not this Biden stuff maybe, but yeah.

I am not much of one for thought-crime, so if it leads to someone wanting to punch someone, well that is freedom of thought (violent thoughts should be a concern), but as a freedom of expression as a response to insult/mockery (or perceived insult and mockery because I have been accused of that when it was not at all my intent) I have serious issues with violence. What would be acceptable for punching would vary, how hard the punch can be would vary, interpretations will vary, if it can be other forms of violence will vary. I don't trust individuals to make such decisions and mete out retribution (not a great believer in retribution) justly. I support laws that discourage violence. A punch could lead to fatality and very serious injury, and might even be due to a misunderstanding of intent. Another might behead someone for causing offence, or stab them, or shoot them.... Oha, and I also believe in having limits on what speech is allowed.

I was driving a big van with my child to kindergarten (the kindergarten happened to be church-run). I changed lanes when I should not have as there was a car who was speeding more than he should have. I had indicated that I would be changing lanes with plenty of notice. There was no accident and he had to slow down quite quickly (not slam his brakes fast). It often has happened to me on the other end. I waved my apology and turned into the church parking lot which was very close-by (that's why I needed to change lanes).

The man, much heftier than I, pulled in and started yelling and swearing at me and telling me that he was going to punch me. "I'm going to punch you, would you like that? Wanna be punched? I'm gonna punch you in the face." I was, why would I want that? By this time my 5 year old by this time was crying wildly and he just kept going. This man was so irate. I apologised multiple times and he kept on threatening me. He even had an older religious man in the side-seat (wearing a turban) which I thought would be very disrespectful to him, and more-so on so-called holy ground and more-so by a preschool/ kindergarten. I told him multiple times, let's go the police station and make a report. We can call them. I'll be perfectly honest and accept any consequences from them if there are any. If he wanted to punch me, okay, but I don't think doing it would be fine, and not in front of a young child, and I don't think his super aggressive, threatening and downright rude behaviour was warranted. But I guess to him it was, and his passenger did not complain -- just calmly looked on. Who is to decide, who is the arbiter of what's right and what's wrong? Well, i think that's why we need laws that limit freedom of expression. I think he realised that the police would not be very sympathetic to his behaviour. I kept as calm as I could be and he left. I would rather us have spoken to the police. It was a horrible and scary experience for me, and I was very concerned for my child. Even if he had no empathy or sympathy for me, he might have for the child who was bawling her eyes out as he spewed out a torrent of abusive and threatening language despite my apologies.

And I would not be surprised if a young Henry Rollins had punched me in those circumstances, but an older Rollins has spoken out against violence and hate. For some, they are quick to anger and wish violence on people due to perceived insult and rage. I have seen threats here at PA against people (about smashing someone's teeth in), and I am not okay with that. The polkitics thread would get really heated and nasty sometimes. And I don't jibe with the mentality of someone who would want to break someone's nose, or smash in their teeth, because they are offended.    Ouch, I think, it's like I feel that pain. And then you are legally responsible for the consequences. I had a kid at elementary school who, I don't know why, maybe I offended him, decided to uppercut my jaw. I needed multiple root canals and my parents payed for it. I think the boy should have had consequences, not by my punching back, but having his parents pay for the dentist and taking that out of his allowance or whatever (such dental work can cost thousands).

Edited by Logan - September 08 2023 at 11:05

MortSahlFan wrote: SteveG wrote: Roy Harper - The Death Of God.  The Black Cloud Of Islam.  I don't see that lyric, or Islam mentioned anywhere, but I guess the Black Cloud of Christianity and Judaism is trendy, and thus, acceptable.

Atavachron wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I don't know Henry Rollins personally, but I know descriptions of him having had anger issues in the past. But I'm not sure he's quite that petty.  This does not "bother" me - I merely find it intriguing that you would be so sure about how he reacts to satire. That level of confidence would suggest to me that there's some interviews or statements to that effect. No, just an impression.   You don't mock someone's work and then expect the artist to not care, free speech or not---  in fact, if 'free speech' is one's excuse, they should expect to be confronted.   You can't just do whatever you want and then hide behind free speech and somehow hope someone doesn't want to break your nose.   It's irrational.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 08 2023 at 01:20

cstack3 wrote: OP here....I appreciate any and all contributions!  Personally, I would not have considered Ladies of the Road, but am glad for the suggestion!  Regarding rap/hip-hop, the violent messages conveyed (killing police, abuse of women etc.) makes that some of the most repellent music.  I dig the rhythms, but don't find much of value in it for listening.   In retrospect, prog is probably the least offensive genre!

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I don't know Henry Rollins personally, but I know descriptions of him having had anger issues in the past. But I'm not sure he's quite that petty.  This does not "bother" me - I merely find it intriguing that you would be so sure about how he reacts to satire. That level of confidence would suggest to me that there's some interviews or statements to that effect.

No, just an impression.   You don't mock someone's work and then expect the artist to not care, free speech or not---  in fact, if 'free speech' is one's excuse, they should expect to be confronted.   You can't just do whatever you want and then hide behind free speech and somehow hope someone doesn't want to break your nose.   It's irrational.

Neu!mann wrote: I'm surprised no one has mentioned the King Crimson classic Ladies of the Road yet...a song about groupies and sex that was just good fun in the early 1970s, but might be considered offensive in the oversensitive, insecure 21st century.