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moshkito 
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18540 |
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 Topic: The Mosh PitPosted: 11 hours 36 minutes ago at 07:42 |
Hi, Hmmmm ... it seems you forgot your ability to say something meaningful ... and you are welcome to comment, though I have my doubts about many folks reading a whole lot to make any comments. That's me thinking, btw!!!  Edited by moshkito - 11 hours 34 minutes ago at 07:44 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Hrychu
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Posted: 18 hours 36 minutes ago at 00:42 |
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Hi,
and welcome to the Mosh Pit Hi, Edited by Hrychu - 18 hours 19 minutes ago at 00:59 |
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moshkito
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Posted: Yesterday at 08:52 |
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Hi,
Digital and Analog one last time!!! The Mosh Pit 05/10/2025 There is a lot of great stuff since things have gone digital many years ago, and we know it will continue into the future. But, just recently, I found something that was really sad, and in some ways spoke more of the commerce surrounding DIGITAL than it did about the music itself, and this is criminal and sick, and needs to be adjusted and fixed, for the sake of the quality of the artists work ... imagine a Picasso with a cut midway, because the picture was too large! I think you would get upset as much as I would! The main example I have, is the LIVE ALBUM by Barclay James Harvest. On the LP version of things, at least the original, two pieces are blended together in this live setting ... they are "Summer Soldier" and "Medicine Man" ... and the beauty and strength of both of these pieces together gives us a super nice view and idea of their live show. Well defined, designed and played. Fast forward to this year, and someone described the 2 pieces as two songs on the CD ... and sure enough, I also got the CD, and yep, these are separated. I was MAD as HELL ... because one of the neat things in that LP was the fact that those two pieces went together. I was, then, not surprised to see it treated as just two songs, since that's how the CD defined it. And, I could not help feel one of the incredible moments in music that lost its touch because of the technology ... something folks worked to get around for many years, and succeeded beautifully, and now, it's like ... none of it mattered at all ... and I felt sad. Really sad. I have not found or seen a lot of things listed where this has happened, and am now looking through my CD's to find them and identify them, but I could not help thinking of the commerce idea of selling a song for 99 Cents that Apple created, which I presonally do not mind, but breaking up a piece of music for the sake of the selling is another story, and I don't think that Apple would give a damn about the music ... it's the money they want, and the music is just a means to their money! I do not, think that digital is better than analog anymore than I do that analog is better than digital. In due time, digital will likely surpass the analog thing, and then move along on to something else, but I get worried about software that defines these things on a CD making the call to separate things, and not give us the full piece as was originally defined and showed. Hopefully we find a future that has more respect for the nature of the arts ... not change it into something that is more commercial in its appeal, and less artistic than it was originally meant to be ... I think we owe the artists the RESPECT to see/hear and enjoy their work as they intended it to be, and for me, in this example, it was like ... it didn't matter ... no one looked at that album, or those two pieces of music as anything, but 2 songs put together, a very contemporary lack of appreciation for the art itself compared to the past and how it was originally defined. The record companies were a serious issue in this matter, though ... in the early days of FM RADIO they provided long cuts in various albums with parts and pieces, and CLOSE TO THE EDGE, THICK AS A BRICK, TARKUS, and many other albums with long pieces, were issued a radio friendly version of these things in parts ... which was meant to get you interested in the pieces, and help sell the product, but you don't go to the supermarket to get half a bar of soap, broken up specially for you, or pick up a shampoo that is not quite a shampoo, but just some suds in water, even though at times this makes sense, when buying some meat, chicken or pork at your local market ... you can't quite get the whole cow/bull or piggie, or even a chicken, though some markets will bake a whole chicken for you and they will rip it apart after a few days and sell some chicken macaroni, or chicken salad at their deli for example. I am OK with that, though at times you wonder how convenience ends up being just trying to stretch that piece of meat as much as possible, and this is the way of the Industrial Century that we were born into! It's more about the riches than it is anything else, even though in my days in Brazil, the supermarket had parts of the animal that American supermarkets won't because it looks gross ... tongue, brains, and other parts are the examples here. At that point I'm not sure how much is just commerce, as it is to maximize as much of the animal as possible since in their culture to eat those is not an issue, but it is in America, for example. I'm glad that I'm getting older and I won't have to deal with some of this digital destruction of some art ... I don't like amputated music in my CD's anymore than I do in my collection. And I hope you don't either and together we might yet get the BJH CD redone properly ... probably with one added piece with both songs together like the album ... but the expense for that will not likely happen and allow it to sell enough to make a difference. Today's audience from the Internet, doesn't seem to care a whole lot about the art form itself ... it's mostly about their song for their little player and ear buds and there is no artist that matters, except their favorite one or two! Edited by moshkito - Yesterday at 08:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18540 |
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Posted: March 20 2025 at 19:30 |
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The Mosh Pit 03/20/2025
Some weird observations about things Recently I have been listening to a lot more jazz than rock stuff. I think that I was getting bored with too much stuff that was using the same formats and attitudes, with the solo here and there in exactly the same place, and the meaning of the solo more and more empty as so many things could be considered to be in the jazz styled material ... where in many situations players just go off ... and I'm not sure that it has anything to do with the whole piece of music at all ... it's more to do with the person, or the name of the player than it is about the music, as far as I can tell. The part that is different for me, is that all music for many years, going back 400 to 500 years, has always presented a "visual" of some sort, a continuity that was condusive to some kind of a cartoon in your head, though it was never, exactly a cartoon, like Disney or Bozzetto. But there was always some kind of continuity that lend itself to a story and even in my advanced age these days, it still flies and there is a lot of music that works well ... except one ... I dislike it when the lyrics replace the music itself ... since I am a person that is into acting, in both theater and film, the majority of the singer in amny bands are simply not very good with their lyrics, and it feels like they are just going through the notes, and not exactly that they have something to say ... and maybe, it is that what they are saying is so minimally important as to make the whole thing, sometimes, ridiculous and not worth listening. Reminds me of MEATLOAF in his book ... "I'm an actor that happens to sing! You have a problem with that?" ... but you would get the idea right away that he MEANT IT when he was singing, and I have to admit that in at least 2 albums he was excellent and I was happy to see an actor actually able to carry things like that and the music supported him well ... which is where a lot of rock bands, fall apart in my head and the visual gets ripped in pieces. Some thing that my attitude is a bit on the condescending side, but in the end, it is strictly about the visual side of things ... it's like Robert Plant in the early days of Led Zeppelin, you knew it meant it a lot to him, and obviously the fans, or they would not have been there, and this was the appeal of the majority of their music ... you could feel it, but men have a tendency to not like seeing other men do that as it makes them feel less than a man ... but my girlfriend, and many of her friends thought it was "sexy" and that was what got me to look at it a little more, and I found that it was the honestly that carried it well, and this is where DD was wrong, when he did one of LZ's songs, and he said out loud "shut up Robert, I want to hear the guitar!" which tells you that DD's tastes in music is not exactly related to "feeling" at all ... it's all dictated by the notes, chords that he can identify which he makes it look like iw what great music is all about. Guess what? It was the "feeling" that woke up music of all kinds in the 20th century, and one might even note folks like Coltrane, and then Miles for their efforts, that eventually ran the gamut to a lot of rock music, that we cherish these days, and call "progressive". The sad part of a lot of the things listed these days as important and in a lot of lists, is that few of them actually have a visual with it, and many times, yet again, it makes it look like the lyrics, or the sound itself as in loud or thrashing, or growl, is what carries it all and it's really difficult to not feel that these folks are not just being another version of the same thing before ... and let's be honest ... someone said recently that there has not been an advancement in music in at least 75 years ... which makes it easy to say that the person did not EVER hear some jazz and some free form rock music and experimental works! Everything gets compared to Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, I guess! This makes it difficult to listen to a lot of things these days ... when you might be onto it for some new music, and in most "progressive" sites yo are not hearing that much new music, as so much of it is a rehash of some sort ... not really, but it is diffcult to not think that when the next sound is a thrashing guitar, that is out of place with the rest of the music. Some of these folks would get boo'd 100 or 200 years ago ... or as it was in that movie that we loved so much after the feedback stuff ... "I guess that you guys are not ready for that yet!" ... and we laughed at that movie because it was funny, and it was a very futuristic idea and fun thing to watch. The one thing that is very visible in the jazz circles is the endless, and sometimes mindless, soloing stuff ... and often it is easy to say that it is too much and hardly musical at all, though I have a feeling that the idea they have of "jazz" is that it is all about the individuality and the motes and music is incidental ... and I wonder if that was the idea about music for so many centuries ... It is really hard to describe a lot of the music that is coming out these days ... I suppose that one could say that I am getting old and that I do not "get" this new stuff, but that makes my schooling for many years including the University as not valuable or important ... and is that what schooling has come to? Meaningless, and all you can really stuff is math and science, and a lot of it seems meaningless if we can not relate it to our daily lives, right? I tend to listen to experimental and other cultural mixes as they are the most interesting things for my imagination, but I can not say that is the same for anyone else, when the listing of the best/better things is full of stuff that is so mundane and not exactly original, though none of us can say there is no talent in the playing ... talent is always there, even if empty, and just continuous notes and chords. I think I need my sleeping draught now! Too much thinking! Edited by moshkito - March 20 2025 at 22:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18540 |
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Posted: March 20 2025 at 18:52 |
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Music Now and Then
We're talking about 50 years or more! Recently, upon watching some interviews with well known folks, for this area at least, they made a point that is really scary, and is something that should, somehow, be addressed, however, I'm not sure that we can agree on anything in regards to that idea, which is another problem that will endup being a personal generational thing. At least 3 folks, have stated something that we do not take in consideration in regards to some of the comments and choices made by several members on PA's threads. The most prevalent of them is their children ... they found their kids did not care who the band was, or had much of an idea about the band ... they just wanted the song, and got another song tomorrow, and the day after another, because their friends had it. This makes, for a lot of the "subjective" discussions here, since many of those folks would only mention their favorite songs, and some of those folks might have gotten a little better at listening to things for a band, but in general, you see a lot of discussions are about a song, not an album, in general. This was massively different 50 years ago, and it is too easy to say that we were better versed and educated about a lot of music, than our children seem to be ... it's a hard thing to say, but one day, I intenionally played my stereo louder, to interrupt one of the kids from my sister's daughter (heck if I know what the term is!) ... and it worked. At first she said it was too loud and she couldn't hear anything on her ear buds. Ten minutes later, she goes, why you playing that so loud? Because it's pretty and better than what you are listening to. She made a face, but shut off the portable player and sat there looking silly as if paying attention to the loud music from the speakers. Who is it and what is that? So I told her. But that's so busy that we can't keep up with it. That's a simple one, and I can play you a really busy one that will blow the ear wax off. Nah, that's OK. Which song is that so I can hear it later? No song. It's a full side on an LP, or about 20 minutes. Why so long? It varies ... do you do your reading for school? We rarely get reading assignments. We got one to find what Wiki said about something or other. I think it was about "bridge" in music. How many songs you got in that thing? About 300. Do you listen to them all? Mostly, though they are on shuffle. Do you know the names of the bands? What for? ... The whole thing died down after that as it was dinner time. This was scary and got me thinking, since the three folks that said this on various interviews were 2 very well known musicians, and one podcaster with an attitude, but he was right. Music listening has changed in 50 years, and the majority of kids these days, don't know the bands, and don't want to know them, because the only thing they are interested in is one song, as long as their friends also has it ... and spending 99 cents, is easier on their budget, as opposed to 10 dollars, which means they could get at least 9 songs for their device! We didn't know much about the bands in those days either, specially in America with no periodical dedicated to the music properly. One was a star kissypoo thing, and a couple of other magazines with nice pictures, were quite obviously a music company's baby and 4 of their bands were illustrated with nice pictures, even if the music was garbage, but the articles made it seem better! I guess they were wearing clothes by then, and not diapers! England had MM and it was OK in general, but it had a massive back section that listed all the concerts in the area and when and a few reviews of some shows, even though those reviews were (as Mike says) just blurbs. But you could see that there were a lot of European bands goofing around in London, and I wish I was there sometimes. What bothered me the most is that NY did not have anything like it, and it was hard to believe that NY did not show a music scene that had exciting things happening, beyond the Velvet Overrated Ground! Some things might have made it through and eventually we heard a bit of it, but in general, most of it was left behind, only to be found years later, by a few folks on PA ... weird that we find more of that music today, than we ever did then! In general, for me, in 1971/1972, when I heard something on late nights, from LA mostly (we could get the 2 big FM stations and the PBS station well enough on clear nights) ... we could not look it up, but we ended up going after it, and a lot of it ended up in Space Pirate Radio from January 1974 on. By then , between Guy and I, we had already piled up a nice set of things, that could go a long way, and both or our record collections were used on the air for his main show. The regular air times for him, when they happened were more of a mix bag and also had other things, and more American stuff, which the main show would not do, though in the early days it had to, things like Paul McCartney, for example. But now, even without a periodical we had a way to find out about the bands, and we were already familiar with a few things ... Black Sabbath being one for sure, and Uriah Heep, and a few more things. There was enough here, that we could quickly learn about them, and it really wasn't until 1974, perhaps, that we came across the Canterbury stuff, and it was mainly Robert Wyatt's 2nd album (Rock Bottom) that gave us a link to more stuff, by the number of folks that played in his album ... there wasn't a single person in their that we did not follow up, and eventually it led to GONG and CARAVAN ... which we came across when I heard during the half time show between Man and Hawkwind (LA 1974 I think) played something I like and went to find out what it was (Caravan's C'thlu Thlu from "For Girls Who Grow Plump In The Night) ... and immediately I got the album and that was it, a couple of the previous Caravan albums right away, and the following week the next Caravan album came out with that neat cover of the tailor and his client in front of the mirror. A very neat cover by Hipgnosis, that suggested what you see is not exactly what you get ... which is very Caravan, with a slight edge. But, at least, we finally were able to follow things up some, and learn more, though by that time we had already switched allegiances to the Europeans, as we got more and more interested in Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, and so many others from Europe. I was, for example, already aware of Aphrodite's Child and Alan Stivell, as two of my sisters had spent time in Europe and they brought those albums with them. Stivell went on immediately to SPR and AC went to it when we got the 666 album. We, at that moment, were starting to have a nice view of Europe, with some Germans and other Europeans ... and in very little time during 1974 and the SPR show, Ange, Banco and Le Orme, became present and a very valuable part of all the shows. 1962 or so ...In our house we had a stereo that dad bought in Araraquara, when we lived there for 3 years (we came to America in 1965), and he listened to many of his operas and other classical music he had on LP's ... and in due time, we purchased the Rolling Stones, and Beatles and played them on that stereo, though we had to play them low so it wouldn't bother dad or mom. However, our listening and a lot of the things I had heard on the radio (the stereo unit had a radio portion as all those units did at the time), and already we knew Maria Bethania, Roberto Carlos, Antonio Carlos Jobim (Girl from Ipanema was huge hit), Stan Getz, Astrud Gilberto ... and all of them were in the airwaves, in some way or another, and though we had no recordings of any of them, we heard many of these things, and remembered them well. When we came to America in 1965, the first thing I heard was Blonde on Blonde Bob Dylan) at the house of the gentleman in Madison WI where we stayed for a month before we got our own place. You can see that at 15, we already knew the artists and the bands, when the case was there ... it wasn't like we didn't already know the Beatles or Rolling Stones. I spoke no English but could name all of their members! Now, as we compare this to a lot of the folks that frequent PA, for example. the tough thing is seeing that a lot of folks don't have a reasonable historic view of the different places and time, which were very visible in our family as we went from Portugal to Brazil and then to America! And the though side of this is seeing comments that completely take the music from 50 years ago, as if they were just another song from today, with one really bad side ... it would not be listed on favorites because it was from many years ago, and therefore, it was assumed many times that the material wasn't any good, or important. And no one, can teach them anything about the different times and places out there, and often those folks will say something on their favorite this and that, but the comment lacks what I would call "perspective" and this is very visible in quite a few threads, and so clear on one place ... the Abbey Road vs Sgt Pepper's thread. We can help. but PA has to add/create a better description of the times and places, so that some folks can have a chance to learn more about a lot of this history ... instead of ignoring it ... and kinda try to keep the idea of "progressive" and "progrock" alive by clothes pins outside on a wire across the yard. There is no specific "reason" why today's young ones do not have any history in their minds, and I suppose the educational system is a serious issue around America ... and I remember one California governor cutting a lot of the PBS moneys because he thought that their work was too liberal and hurt conservative causes. This has been happening for over 50 years now, and (basically) it looks like education about the arts, is no longer useful or important in so many school system that would rather save their moneys for their benefit, than it is to educate the students a bit better. The funding for a lot of this is simply gone, and expecting the young ones to pick it all up by themselves from their friends and the songs they like, is not a good educational choice, but no school system in America is going to do anything about it ... and this is the sad reality of a lof of the younger fans these days. PA, if it wants to generate more time for its efforts in the Progressive and related areas, has to do more, within a somewhat more educational ability ... to help define and keep the movement alive, though if Music History is any indication most periods of music do not last 50 years, and that would suggest that our specialty has already had its best days, and would likely face a massive decline. I kinda think that we can stop this if we add some historical content, so the new music fits better and is more than just a monthly number or a minor hit in Left Balling Neptune! I'm not sure that this will happen ... I have, for many years, always posted with a lot of details about yesterday many years ago, in my experience, and sadly, it's like no one wants to bother with it, since no one has a comment ... but one person cleared it up with me ... he said ... goodness, you just destroyed my ideas about music ... and I said ... nope ... I am adding to your study and ideas so you might have some help in figuring out why some of that stuff came alive ... things like "Foreign Son" and "Ohio" are not exactly a huge finger to the establishment, but they are a huge bunch of words about how we felt ... while today, not a lot of music is as valuable and important in terms of guidance for many of us, regardless of how we look at some things as better and more important, as they are not even a valuable listen compared to 50 years ago ... I kinda think of many of these new old things here, as just "MOS" the term that we gave the new FM stations in 1980 after the great American Radio Rape buy the FCC and such. Folks are creating stories and concepts for the sake of ... something that could be entertaining and interesting for one or two of us, but in general, they are not even valuable in that area, and it's hard to not think of these things as pulp fiction in rock music, and this is something that we should not allow in "progressive" and "progrock" as so much of it going back 50 years was a revolution ... we did not like the empty messages ... we wanted some truth, and while fun listening to it, in the end, it was not about the Masked Marauders having to tell us about it at all ... we depended on many of these artists for it all ... and since the Internet days? The only thing we can depend on is, them all falling down and departing for another cosmic address ... and hope that their music can survive so we can learn something about our own history, instead of ignoring it! |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18540 |
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Posted: March 20 2025 at 18:50 |
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(accidental copy)
Edited by moshkito - March 20 2025 at 18:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18540 |
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Posted: February 25 2025 at 09:30 |
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Hi,
An area for me to write various things and thoughts. And thanks for reading
Edited by moshkito - March 20 2025 at 18:54 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Hrychu wrote: