Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought.

Saperlipopette! wrote: ^ I’m not really concerned about this at all to be honest. It's not of importance to me, and even less for Sun Ra. But to me it’s not about the definitions of Progressive - which Sun Ra and many other artists of his era not represented on PA undoubtly were. Most of them aren’t here because they lack the «Rock»-element in their music. Just like Sun Ra. Because like it or not; This site is an archive for all things Progressive Rock - not all things progressive. moshkito wrote: we can't even define "progressive" properly, specially when we keep adding progrock things that are just a copy of a copy of a copy, and are as progressive as our poop going down the drain! You know, I don't even mind that. Experiencing music that's genuinely Progressive in spirit is fantastic, but it's quite rare really. -As long as the art is honest, comes from a place of love and necessity: artists/bands that do not really bring anything actually new or unheard to the table - but operate within a field already established by mentioned pioneers - is more than good enough for me. If the music gives me an experience, trancends me or simply touches my heart/crushes my soul, I don't need a challenge or anything else. I'm saving my poop-metaphors for something more deserving.

Good point. Sun Ra was Definitely not much of a rock and rolla. Space, Jazz , Lounge , If I had to choose 3 attributes.

Saperlipopette! wrote: ^ while I could add the gorgeous Sleeping Beauty to that short list of fusion albums, I'm tempted to agree. Those three albums and Sun Ra the artist/visionary himself - are even less related to the sort of Progressive Rock-related form of Jazz that Jazz Rock/Fusion (the sub genre) was primarily/originally intended for - than Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter...

Hi,

My main concern is not exactly that someone gets added to PA or not. I worry much more about us trying to pigeonhole someone into a corner because of this or that, only to find that ... hmmm ... not a good choice.

IF, and that is a huge IF, the descriptions and definitions of PROGRESSIVE were better worded and not contain silly stuff that all other music also has, we might have a better idea of what/how/who belongs and does not. I just don't like the idea of holding a band locked up in nowhere land because too many of us have different opinions, and in the end ... we can't even define "progressive" properly, specially when we keep adding progrock things that are just a copy of a copy of a copy, and are as progressive as our poop going down the drain!

In that sense, adding such a band, before SUN RA is criminal, and really ends up being a situation where the folks making the selections are not likely as versatile in music listening as they could/should be since they are attuned to something that is not progressive, but when they hear something that is 50+ years old, they punt. It's not their thing to define/decide anything about those folks. I tend to think that a wider view of music would be a good thing, but it will be a cold day in heck that someone with those inclinations will actually be invited to become a part of PA ... and some choices, sometimes, are scary when you read some stuff posted on various threads ... that person has a good idea of what music really is? NOPE. It's just a favorite, and has nothing to do with music!

I love all three artists, however Davis and Shorter go into fusion territory multiple times, Sun Ra pretty much stays in the avant garde jazz lane, he did fusion rarely (Strange Celestial Road and Lanquidity) and even then those albums are more adjacent to experimental big band, Sun Ra is one of my favorite musicians however I don't think he fits here, if you want to stretch it you could argue he's some sort of a jazzy american equivalent to krautrock with albums like Astro Black, Space is The Place or Atlantis (which Atlantis almost sounds like The Residents at times) so big big maybe but even then he has so much work that outweighs those examples, I just don't see him fitting in but who knows what'll happen

Well said everyone!    

siLLy puPPy wrote: Logan wrote: ^ I would not think of all jazz artists or jazz music itself as progressive (and some jazz is more progressive than others, and some artists are more progressive than others who work in jazz). I think of Sun Ra as a non-Prog artist who was particularly progressive (more progressive than most jazz artists) who made progressive music. The topic was made in the Prog Lounge (I moved it) and the title is "Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought" and I always thought of him as very progressive in his ways, but that does not make him Prog (genre and short for progressive rock). I don't think all jazz progressed jazz, or elaboratad on it, some is much more experinmental, creative and innovative than others. There is lots of jazz music that is doing nothing new or innovative, lots that I would not consider progressive. And lots of jazz artists that add nothing new, no twists, just standard all been done before stuff. Here is the AI definition of progressive jazz (damn, I am using AI): "Progressive jazz, a term coined by Stan Kenton, refers to a style of jazz that emerged in the 1950s, characterized by its experimental and somewhat dissonant nature, often in big band settings. It's known for complex, loud, and brassy voicings, with arrangements that sometimes draw inspiration from classical music." And this is much how I would have defined it, from Collins, "an experimental, nonmelodic, and often free-flowing style of modern jazz, esp. in the form of highly dissonant, rhythmically complex orchestral arrangements." So a particular kind of jazz, but not the only kind of jazz that could be described as progressive. I was familiar with the term progressive jazz before I had heard the term progressive rock, and it predates it. I've heard the term but it's not much used that i can find. It's not particularly useful for jazz at least not for me mostly because more specific terms like free jazz, avant-garde jazz, experimental jazz etc are more specific. I guess experimental and outside the box thinking means progressive in many ways. It's just that almost all styles of jazz utilize complex chord progressions, rhythms, time signatures etc except for the pop crossover stuff like Kenny G and the like. The term progressive county exists as does just about progressive everything! Ironically the term has a different meaning depending which genre it's tagged to at least in terms of how the music is extended beyond the norm.

Progressive Jazz is a term I've heard for 20 years and quite a few Belgian jazz ats can qualify.
JMA has a ¨rogressive Big Band genre, BTW, in which Duke & Gill Evans (and Sun Ra) should be.

BTW, I've always found that putting Sun Ra in R (as opposed to S) in JMA was a bit counter-intuitive, as Hermann Poole Blount's artiste name was not made of a first and surname (just like Max Webster or Jethro Tull).
But then again the Belgian jazz great Philipp Catherine is catalogued as British, simply because he was born in London during WW2 (his parents were in the resistance, I believe and had fled to continue the war there).



However, the AI definition would hint that all forms of Bop jazz (Be, Hard or Post) would be "progressive". In a way it was, bacause the aesthetics of Bop were quite demanding and sort of aimed at voluntarily excluding more commercial/standard forms of jazz. Bop music was clearly for snobs (it repulsed plenty of the wider public), and that trait can relate to progheads (but then again, there are punk snobs, and C&W snobs as well).

Edited by Sean Trane - May 26 2025 at 01:54

Well I intended this to be a casual conversation about the music and the man’s simple philosophy in the short vid clip. I didn’t mean to start genre wars. All good. We all seem to enjoy his strange take on music, at least we agree. I hadn’t realized such a large discography and I’ll be exploring more of it in the future. I’m just pleased that music is capable of changing and morphing into new terrain even though it appears to get “stuck” at times. I feel that progressive Rock is somewhat stuck in these times. But we know breakthroughs happen regularly, historically. Waiting for the next big thing I suppose.

Logan wrote: ^ I would not think of all jazz artists or jazz music itself as progressive (and some jazz is more progressive than others, and some artists are more progressive than others who work in jazz). I think of Sun Ra as a non-Prog artist who was particularly progressive (more progressive than most jazz artists) who made progressive music. The topic was made in the Prog Lounge (I moved it) and the title is "Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought" and I always thought of him as very progressive in his ways, but that does not make him Prog (genre and short for progressive rock). I don't think all jazz progressed jazz, or elaboratad on it, some is much more experinmental, creative and innovative than others. There is lots of jazz music that is doing nothing new or innovative, lots that I would not consider progressive. And lots of jazz artists that add nothing new, no twists, just standard all been done before stuff. Here is the AI definition of progressive jazz (damn, I am using AI): "Progressive jazz, a term coined by Stan Kenton, refers to a style of jazz that emerged in the 1950s, characterized by its experimental and somewhat dissonant nature, often in big band settings. It's known for complex, loud, and brassy voicings, with arrangements that sometimes draw inspiration from classical music." And this is much how I would have defined it, from Collins, "an experimental, nonmelodic, and often free-flowing style of modern jazz, esp. in the form of highly dissonant, rhythmically complex orchestral arrangements." So a particular kind of jazz, but not the only kind of jazz that could be described as progressive. I was familiar with the term progressive jazz before I had heard the term progressive rock, and it predates it.

I've heard the term but it's not much used that i can find. It's not particularly useful for jazz at least not for me mostly because more specific terms like free jazz, avant-garde jazz, experimental jazz etc are more specific. I guess experimental and outside the box thinking means progressive in many ways. It's just that almost all styles of jazz utilize complex chord progressions, rhythms, time signatures etc except for the pop crossover stuff like Kenny G and the like.

The term progressive county exists as does just about progressive everything! Ironically the term has a different meaning depending which genre it's tagged to at least in terms of how the music is extended beyond the norm.

^ I would not think of all jazz artists or jazz music itself as progressive (and some jazz is more progressive than others, and some artists are more progressive than others who work in jazz). I think of Sun Ra as a non-Prog artist who was particularly progressive (more progressive than most jazz artists) who made progressive music. The topic was made in the Prog Lounge (I moved it) and the title is "Sun Ra… maybe more progressive than we thought" and I always thought of him as very progressive in his ways, but that does not make him Prog (genre and short for progressive rock). I don't think all jazz progressed jazz, or elaboratad on it, some is much more experinmental, creative and innovative than others. There is lots of jazz music that is doing nothing new or innovative, lots that I would not consider progressive. And lots of jazz artists that add nothing new, no twists, just standard all been done before stuff.

Here is the AI definition of progressive jazz (damn, I am using AI): "Progressive jazz, a term coined by Stan Kenton, refers to a style of jazz that emerged in the 1950s, characterized by its experimental and somewhat dissonant nature, often in big band settings. It's known for complex, loud, and brassy voicings, with arrangements that sometimes draw inspiration from classical music."

And this is much how I would have defined it, from Collins, "an experimental, nonmelodic, and often free-flowing style of modern jazz, esp. in the form of highly dissonant, rhythmically complex orchestral arrangements." So a particular kind of jazz, but not the only kind of jazz that could be described as progressive. I was familiar with the term progressive jazz before I had heard the term progressive rock, and it predates it.


Edited by Logan - May 25 2025 at 21:18

Like Logan, I don’t care if he’s included in PA or not honestly. It would be kind of like putting Miles or Dolphy in… I get it. But Sun Ra is a different kind of cat to be sure. I find “straight” jazz pretty tedious . I remember checking out most of the Pacific Jazz quartet LPs years ago (baker, koonits, mulligan etc.). What a drag those are. Parker Coltrane Miles… a bit more interesting. Eric Dolphy hit the spot for me. Herbie Hancock was Prog (Headhunters). For the most part jazz isn’t my thing.

Side note… I heard Morphines “like swimming” album years ago, and thought, THIS is modern Jazz/rock that really pushes prog buttons! with just a cocktail drummer, a 2 string bass, and a brilliant sax. Morphine was pretty innovative and still stayed inside acceptable norms.   Actually made me look into some more recent jazz infused rock that goes places.   I’m just rambling, and I get silly pups points. I suppose the listener will decide what’s progressive in his mind. It’s a personal thing and that’s ok .

Logan wrote: I talked to the JRF team many year ago about Sun Ra as I was keen to see it at least seriously considered, especially after hearing Languidity. This was some time after Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock were added and I was enthralled by many jazz artists who have added electric elements. Donald Byrd for Electric Byrd was one of the ones I was keenest on them seriously considering, but thy had their plan for additions. In PA or not, Sun Ra is very obviously progressive even if not deemed Prog (which is common shorthand for progressive rock) or if included to Jazz-Rock/Fusion. I think of him as one of (among) the most progressive artists of the 20th century.

This topic of adding Sun Ra never seems to die down in these parts. As a member of the JF team i am opposed to his inclusion.

Why? Because ALL jazz is progressive but not all jazz is rock! Simple as that.

Jazz Fusion is not synonymous with jazz rock fusion. There are many forms of fusion that have nothing to do with rock. This site is reserved for jazz ROCK fusion. Sure there some that snuck through but i wouldn't voted for em.

I speak with authority on this because Sun Ra is one of my favorite artists of all time. I have been listening for a long time and these are all the albums i currently have in my collection. I'm missing quite a few but dude was prolific AF.

STUDIO
Jazz By Sun Ra [Sun Song] (1957)
Super-Sonic Jazz (1957)
Jazz In Silhouette (1959)
The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra (1962)
When Sun Comes Out (1963)
Angels And Demons At Play (1965)
Art Forms of Dimensions Tomorrow(1965)
Fate In A Pleasant Mood (1965)
Secrets Of The Sun (1965)
The Heliocentric Worlds Of Sun Ra Vol 1 (1965)
The Heliocentric Worlds Of Sun Ra Vol 2 (1966)
Rocket Number Nine [Interstellar Low Ways] (1966)
The Lady With the Golden Stockings [The Nubians of Plutonia] (1966)
The Magic City (1966)
Visits Planet Earth (1966)
When Angels Speak of Love (1966)
Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy (1967)
Strange Strings (1967)
We Travel The Spaceways (1967)
A Black Mass (1968)
Monorails and Satellites (1968)
Sound Of Joy (1968)
Atlantis (1969)
Continuation (1969)
Holiday for Soul Dance (1970)
My Brother the Wind (1970)
Sound Sun Pleasure!! (1970)
The Wind Speaks [My Brother The Wind Vol 2] (1970)
The Solar-Myth Approach Volume 1 (1971) as Strange Worlds
The Solar-Myth Approach Volume 2 (1971) as Strange Worlds
Imamu Baraka and the Sun Ra Myth-Science Arkestra "The Night of the Purple Moon" (1972)
Bad And Beautiful (1972)
Discipline 27-II (1973)
Space Is The Place (1973)
Cosmos (1976)
Lanquidity (1978)
Sleeping Beauty (1979)
On Jupiter (1979)
Strange Celestial Road (1980)
Somewhere Else (1993)
Thunder Of The Gods (2017 archival)

LIVE
It's After the End of the World: Live at the Donaueschingen and Berlin Festivals (1970)
Disco 3000 (1978)