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jammun 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
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 Topic: Is Boston Prog-Related?
Posted: December 06 2008 at 09:43 |
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I think the point we can take from this is that it's all subjective. Progometer could in fact be developed, but the parameters it would use to evaluate would of necessity be subjective (which Peter has already pointed out).
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Alberto Muńoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
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Points: 3577
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Posted: December 06 2008 at 01:23 |
mmmmmmmmmmm....ehhhhhh...ah......... oh....... sure.......ehhhhhmmmmmm.......... i don't know  Well the above is a joke, but i think that Boston is a less prog band and more Adult Oriented Rock, a good one BTW
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jammun
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Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 3449
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 22:56 |
 Epignosis wrote:
jammun wrote:
Damn, now I'm going to have to listen to my wife's LP of Don't Look Back and run it through the proprietary progmeter algorithms.
I forgot to mention progometer also looks at album notes, and has evaluated the "No Synthesizers Used" statement on the inner gatefold of the album somewhat negatively. Progometer specifically looks for use of synthesizers.
On the plus side, progometer rates guitar/spaceship/UFO covers rather highly, especially if planets are shown as well. |
 To tell you the truth, I hated synthesizers when I was younger. And to a degree, I still cringe at them sometime.
To |
Not to worry, progometer does not specifically subtract points for lack of synth unless synth priority is set to high (else many bands would be in trouble). So if keyboard competency is weighted to 10=Keith Emerson and 1=Eddie Van Halen then it will not overevalutate synthesizer presence. However It is programmed to subtract outright dissing of synths in liner notes.
By the way, it's currently analyzing Don't Look Back and is rating lyrics rather on the down side:
"So come on, put your hands together
You know it's now or never, take a chance on rock 'n' roll "
On the other hand, it's rating competency of the guitarist rather highly.
The developers of progmeter are evaluating whether or not this should be user configurable in the final released version. Current beta settings are Sky Saxon=1 and Jeff Beck=10. Of course if it's user configurable then user could set Robert Fripp=1, which could cause obvious problems. Probable solution is to set certain predefined minimum/maximum values for every known guitarist. This will cause serious cost overruns for Progometer development, which frankly we can't afford in the current economy.
That Don't Look Back is a pretty good album, probably not prog-related.
Edited by jammun - December 05 2008 at 23:12
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Epignosis
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 22:37 |
jammun wrote:
Damn, now I'm going to have to listen to my wife's LP of Don't Look Back and run it through the proprietary progmeter algorithms.
I forgot to mention progometer also looks at album notes, and has evaluated the "No Synthesizers Used" statement on the inner gatefold of the album somewhat negatively. Progometer specifically looks for use of synthesizers.
On the plus side, progometer rates guitar/spaceship/UFO covers rather highly, especially if planets are shown as well. |
To tell you the truth, I hated synthesizers when I was younger. And to a degree, I still cringe at them sometime.To
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 22:23 |
Damn, now I'm going to have to listen to my wife's LP of Don't Look Back and run it through the proprietary progmeter algorithms.
I forgot to mention progometer also looks at album notes, and has evaluated the "No Synthesizers Used" statement on the inner gatefold of the album somewhat negatively. Progometer specifically looks for use of synthesizers.
On the plus side, progometer rates guitar/spaceship/UFO covers rather highly, especially if planets are shown as well.
Edited by jammun - December 05 2008 at 22:31
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Epignosis
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 22:10 |
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I love a good sh*tstorm.
Especially one I started.
Go to it!
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Atavachron
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 21:47 |
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could be fun now that you've laid it out
*shudders at potential raging debate*
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 3449
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 21:42 |
Peter wrote:
 There actually is a "progometer," you know.
 It's called your BRAIN, and it's strongly supported by your gut and heart.
 The only problem with it is, yours only works for YOU, mine only works for me, etc....
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Actually Peter, mine is a highly proprietary technology to analyze a band's output.
Among the things it considers:
The Melody, Chord Structure, and Rhythm of each song.
Lyrics, if any. If lyrics lean towards standard pop (love of a man or woman or lack thereof), then the progometer subtracts points. If the lyrics are either just flat out unintelligible, or dealing with demons, wizards, rearranging of livers, or other arcane subjects, progometer adds points.
Album cover art. Self-explanatory.
Has the band had hit singles? If so, were they edits of the album cut? If they are edited, the band rates higher on the progometer, since the record company was obviously desperate to fit the band's musical output into the standard AM format of the time.
Competency of the musicians in the band.
Historical context. Was the band doing anything progressive for the time, or were they just following along?
These are then weighted by proprietary algorthm.
So let's look at Louie Louie (Kingsmen version):
Melody is simple so 0 points. Chord structure is simple (I, IV, V) but off-notes are added to the standard triad so 2 points. Rhythm is primitive so 0 point.
Lyrics appear to deal with love but are unintelligible, so only 1 point.
Hiistorical context indicates they were just copying what everyone else did, except the lyrics were possibly dirty: 1 point.
Cover art: was there any? 0 points.
Hit single: yes, 0 points since it wasn't an edit of a longer album track.
Competency of the musicians: they appear to be minimally competent: 1 point.
Progometer calculates something below 1.
Shall we do a Boston album???
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Peter
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 21:34 |
There actually is a "progometer," you know.
It's called your BRAIN, and it's strongly supported by your gut and heart.
The only problem with it is, yours only works for YOU, mine only works for me, etc....
Edited by Peter - December 05 2008 at 21:34
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Atavachron
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 21:22 |
Hell is a never ending Boston thread
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jammun
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 21:15 |
I have developed a progometer and on a scale of 1 to 10, it indicates Boston rates about a 2. So we just need to determine the threshold number (2?, 3?, 4?) for prog-related.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 20:49 |
jimidom wrote:
That totally makes sense in theory. In practice, however, the reality is that there have been a few bands added who are less "prog-related" than a few of those rejected. Too bad there isn't a "progmeter". |
Please, if those bands are a mistake, and I agree some are...Does it means we have to make it worst adding other non related bands?
Iván
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Epignosis
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 13:20 |
King By-Tor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
jimidom wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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With respect Someone else, that argument is not valid...."I vote for X even when it's a 2nd label, because there are other bands that have less reasons to be here"
Each band is here for it's Prog characteristics or is not for the lack of them, as simple as that, we don't compare two bands or have a progometer to know which one are here,k this has ceratin degree of subjectivity.
But adding somebody, even we know is not just because another non PR was added...well, I disagree witth that.
My 2 cents.
Iván |
That totally makes sense in theory. In practice, however, the reality is that there have been a few bands added who are less "prog-related" than a few of those rejected. Too bad there isn't a "progmeter". |
Another member suggested that there be a "general exceptions" category. I totally support that idea, and I think it's quite a feasible solution.
So Journey's first two or three albums might go in there, while the rest of their pop-rock discography can be left off the site.
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Prog Related = whatever the hell we feel like?  
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Fixed.
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 12:55 |
Epignosis wrote:
jimidom wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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With respect Someone else, that argument is not valid...."I vote for X even when it's a 2nd label, because there are other bands that have less reasons to be here"
Each band is here for it's Prog characteristics or is not for the lack of them, as simple as that, we don't compare two bands or have a progometer to know which one are here,k this has ceratin degree of subjectivity.
But adding somebody, even we know is not just because another non PR was added...well, I disagree witth that.
My 2 cents.
Iván |
That totally makes sense in theory. In practice, however, the reality is that there have been a few bands added who are less "prog-related" than a few of those rejected. Too bad there isn't a "progmeter". |
Another member suggested that there be a "general exceptions" category. I totally support that idea, and I think it's quite a feasible solution.
So Journey's first two or three albums might go in there, while the rest of their pop-rock discography can be left off the site.
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General exceptions = whatever the hell we feel like?
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The Quiet One
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 12:11 |
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^yeah, I was thinking similar to that few hours ago. I would apply that to all Prog-Related bands, though it would be a mess/chaos to delete albums that don't have prog leanings, lots of reviews in vain and other important stuff.
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Epignosis
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 12:01 |
jimidom wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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With respect Someone else, that argument is not valid...."I vote for X even when it's a 2nd label, because there are other bands that have less reasons to be here"
Each band is here for it's Prog characteristics or is not for the lack of them, as simple as that, we don't compare two bands or have a progometer to know which one are here,k this has ceratin degree of subjectivity.
But adding somebody, even we know is not just because another non PR was added...well, I disagree witth that.
My 2 cents.
Iván |
That totally makes sense in theory. In practice, however, the reality is that there have been a few bands added who are less "prog-related" than a few of those rejected. Too bad there isn't a "progmeter". |
Another member suggested that there be a "general exceptions" category. I totally support that idea, and I think it's quite a feasible solution.
So Journey's first two or three albums might go in there, while the rest of their pop-rock discography can be left off the site.
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
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Points: 570
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 11:32 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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With respect Someone else, that argument is not valid...."I vote for X even when it's a 2nd label, because there are other bands that have less reasons to be here"
Each band is here for it's Prog characteristics or is not for the lack of them, as simple as that, we don't compare two bands or have a progometer to know which one are here,k this has ceratin degree of subjectivity.
But adding somebody, even we know is not just because another non PR was added...well, I disagree witth that.
My 2 cents.
Iván |
That totally makes sense in theory. In practice, however, the reality is that there have been a few bands added who are less "prog-related" than a few of those rejected. Too bad there isn't a "progmeter".
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 10:16 |
someone_else wrote:
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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With respect Someone else, that argument is not valid...."I vote for X even when it's a 2nd label, because there are other bands that have less reasons to be here"
Each band is here for it's Prog characteristics or is not for the lack of them, as simple as that, we don't compare two bands or have a progometer to know which one are here,k this has ceratin degree of subjectivity.
But adding somebody, even we know is not just because another non PR was added...well, I disagree witth that.
My 2 cents.
Iván
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jimidom
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Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 09:11 |
someone_else wrote:
I agree with you about Boston being prog related, but it is '2nd label', as most PR bands are.
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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Exactly! That's why I voted yes as well.
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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someone_else
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Posted: December 05 2008 at 08:30 |
I agree with you about Boston being prog related, but it is '2nd label', as most PR bands are.
Still there are some bands on PA which are less prog related than Boston, so I vote 'Yes'.
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Is Boston Prog-Related?
