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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:11
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



The English word "hell" comes from "helan," meaning "to conceal."  It's where we get the word "helmet" (which conceals the head).  The idea of being "concealed" sounds like being buried, don't you think?  Wink

But the Bible wasn't written in English, no.  The Greek word translated hell is tartarus, which is a place in Greek mythology.  It is not a biblical concept, but this is where we in the West get hung up.

We in the West demand systematic truths.  Everything has to "fit" systematically.  Therefore we take everything anyone says in the Bible as immediate metaphysical or religious truth.  This misses the point.

The disciples were not this way.  Their goal was to preach the gospel of Jesus, not argue about the exact nature of hell, the existence of demons, or the non-existence of other gods (note Paul's evangelical technique to the Athenians in Acts 17!).  Peter uses the term tartarus because his audience would understand the concept of a fiery judgment.

That verse is not to teach us of the nature of eternal punishment.  If it was, then you would have to accept Greek mythology.  Geek

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but hades and tartaros were both translated into the English hell and have two different meanings and in old English hell was a hole in the ground.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:14
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

 
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Slarti, it's Robert and the bible... He WILL correct you because you probably ARE wrong anyway.. TongueBig smile
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Points: 32595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:17
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

 
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Slarti, it's Robert and the bible... He WILL correct you because you probably ARE wrong anyway.. TongueBig smile




Well, he's right (depending on the translation, of course).  Tongue
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:36
I left out gehenna....
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Points: 32595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:38
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I left out gehenna....


Jerusalem's garbage dump.  LOL
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:55
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I left out gehenna....


Jerusalem's garbage dump.  LOL

My understanding that it was also a place where bodies were also dumped and all three words were translated into hell in the King James bible.


Edited by Slartibartfast - May 26 2010 at 12:58
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:00
I think you're all being a little too hard on the girl, who has evidently reached a point of discarding organised religion, but is still holding on to some form of spiritual heritage (for want of a better word - I dislike the term "baggage" - parents often comfort small children by equating the death of a loved one ["Where's Nana now?"] with becoming an angel) - I assume she isn't worshipping angels, or following any form of ritualised practises involving angels, but is simply using them as a reassurance that there is more, of something, other than just... life. I'm comfortable with that as being a form of agnosticism - it isn't theism, deism or polytheism - that it has no structure or foundation is not that important - certainly it smells of New-agism, but again, it lacks structure and ritual to be something as rigidly defined as that.
 
I actually think angels are pretty cool, even as an atheist I find them a curiosity - probably absorbed into the Abrahamic religions from other older beliefs (most demons are demonised gods from other local religions - it is a fair guess that the more benign ones would be conscripted into the new monotheist religion as lackies and footsoldiers) - they are superfluous plot-devices - the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent monotheistic god has no need of helpers, messengers, henchmen and watchers, yet in the mythology they exist in large numbers - one for every blade of grass, an unspecified number to dance on the head of a pin, a whole host to do nothing but sing hosanna for all eternity. In the mythology they exist in nine hosts organised into three triads -  the "beings" in each host are distinctly different in appearance and composition (try deciphering the description of the cherubim in Ezekiel 1:4-28). In the scriptures they are referred to as either messengers of god (mal'akh Elohim) or sons of god (bene-ha Elohim) and their relationship to the Hebrew god is reflected in their names - many angelic names end in 'el' (Micha'el, Rapha'el, Uri'el, Gabra'el, Ani'el, Azri'el) - for example "Gabri'el" means strength of god.
 
 
(sorry, sometimes the Goth in me gets out) Wink
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:14
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Devil and his demons are FALLEN angels.  


The Bible does not say this.
implies perhaps:
 
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; " (2 Peter 2:4)
 
For Peter to have known that it is possible that he knew of The Book of Enoch, which does document the fall of the angels and describes their fate in pretty much those words.


Again, if the word "angels" is translated properly and then placed in the context of the rest of the passage (which is talking about false prophets), it makes more sense.  Especially since it would seem that angels cannot die (Luke 20:36), and I would contend that the imagery in 2 Peter 2:4 ("down to hell" and "chains of darkness") are metaphors for death.
*shrug* we're not talking about a real place anyway Wink
 
In Enoch the angels are "bound" and sent "to the abyss of fire" and any who follow them are "bound together with them to the end of all generations" - Peter uses the same phrases - whether he took his "metaphor" from folklore, or directly from Enoch isn't that important - what is relevant is that in the 1st century of the common era there is circumstantial evidence the myth of the fallen angels - either that or it is remarkably coincidental.
 
Well Rob, I think you are the one in here who is deducing too much... what if "Down to hell" and "chains of darkness" means just that... and not a metaphor...? to change "angels" from messengers I understand... but chains of darknes or abyss of fire.. I think that is not just a meaning of death... but well... you are the expert here... Geek


The English word "hell" comes from "helan," meaning "to conceal."  It's where we get the word "helmet" (which conceals the head).  The idea of being "concealed" sounds like being buried, don't you think?  Wink

But the Bible wasn't written in English, no.  The Greek word translated hell is tartarus, which is a place in Greek mythology.  It is not a biblical concept, but this is where we in the West get hung up.

We in the West demand systematic truths.  Everything has to "fit" systematically.  Therefore we take everything anyone says in the Bible as immediate metaphysical or religious truth.  This misses the point.

The disciples were not this way.  Their goal was to preach the gospel of Jesus, not argue about the exact nature of hell, the existence of demons, or the non-existence of other gods (note Paul's evangelical technique to the Athenians in Acts 17!).  Peter uses the term tartarus because his audience would understand the concept of a fiery judgment.

That verse is not to teach us of the nature of eternal punishment.  If it was, then you would have to accept Greek mythology.  Geek
 
In spanish it is "infierno" from latin "Infernum", which means bellow the ground... so, well... I think you took a different point of view from what I was saying... to translate abyss of fire to a interpretation of "death" is quite a long way... while angels to messenger is a correct translation... that was what I was saying... but as Teo said, I'm open to be corrected by the expert... and I love this emoticon... Geek
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:23
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



The English word "hell" comes from "helan," meaning "to conceal."  It's where we get the word "helmet" (which conceals the head).  The idea of being "concealed" sounds like being buried, don't you think?  Wink

But the Bible wasn't written in English, no.  The Greek word translated hell is tartarus, which is a place in Greek mythology.  It is not a biblical concept, but this is where we in the West get hung up.

We in the West demand systematic truths.  Everything has to "fit" systematically.  Therefore we take everything anyone says in the Bible as immediate metaphysical or religious truth.  This misses the point.

The disciples were not this way.  Their goal was to preach the gospel of Jesus, not argue about the exact nature of hell, the existence of demons, or the non-existence of other gods (note Paul's evangelical technique to the Athenians in Acts 17!).  Peter uses the term tartarus because his audience would understand the concept of a fiery judgment.

That verse is not to teach us of the nature of eternal punishment.  If it was, then you would have to accept Greek mythology.  Geek
 
In spanish it is "infierno" from latin "Infernum", which means bellow the ground... so, well... I think you took a different point of view from what I was saying... to translate abyss of fire to a interpretation of "death" is quite a long way... while angels to messenger is a correct translation... that was what I was saying... but as Teo said, I'm open to be corrected by the expert... and I love this emoticon... Geek
As Rob points out there is a (con)fusing of mythologies outside the bible that has become absorbed into the current view by sucessive translations and transliterations - the whole concept of "hell" being "down below" is a Greek concept based on the Underworld and added to by generations of romantic poets and writers such as Dante and Milton.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:32
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



The English word "hell" comes from "helan," meaning "to conceal."  It's where we get the word "helmet" (which conceals the head).  The idea of being "concealed" sounds like being buried, don't you think?  Wink

But the Bible wasn't written in English, no.  The Greek word translated hell is tartarus, which is a place in Greek mythology.  It is not a biblical concept, but this is where we in the West get hung up.

We in the West demand systematic truths.  Everything has to "fit" systematically.  Therefore we take everything anyone says in the Bible as immediate metaphysical or religious truth.  This misses the point.

The disciples were not this way.  Their goal was to preach the gospel of Jesus, not argue about the exact nature of hell, the existence of demons, or the non-existence of other gods (note Paul's evangelical technique to the Athenians in Acts 17!).  Peter uses the term tartarus because his audience would understand the concept of a fiery judgment.

That verse is not to teach us of the nature of eternal punishment.  If it was, then you would have to accept Greek mythology.  Geek
 
In spanish it is "infierno" from latin "Infernum", which means bellow the ground... so, well... I think you took a different point of view from what I was saying... to translate abyss of fire to a interpretation of "death" is quite a long way... while angels to messenger is a correct translation... that was what I was saying... but as Teo said, I'm open to be corrected by the expert... and I love this emoticon... Geek
As Rob points out there is a (con)fusing of mythologies outside the bible that has become absorbed into the current view by sucessive translations and transliterations - the whole concept of "hell" being "down below" is a Greek concept based on the Underworld and added to by generations of romantic poets and writers such as Dante and Milton.
 
Both wonderful writers... two of my favorite books... and yes, is evident how they mixed the different myths from greeks, romans and other superstition in their tales... way out of topic... I know..
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:34
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
Both wonderful writers... two of my favorite books... and yes, is evident how they mixed the different myths from greeks, romans and other superstition in their tales... way out of topic... I know..
Not off topic at all - this is the Atheist-Agnostic thread - it's all fiction and superstition to us Wink
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
Both wonderful writers... two of my favorite books... and yes, is evident how they mixed the different myths from greeks, romans and other superstition in their tales... way out of topic... I know..
Not off topic at all - this is the Atheist-Agnostic thread - it's all fiction and superstition to us Wink
 
LOL I will start the Divine Comedy as soon I end Crime and Punishment... is a promise... and I need a decent edition from Paradise Lost, but no money to buy it...
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 13:40
Paradise Lost is an interminable read - my copy is annotated, after a while I stopped reading the verse and just read the annotations. I should return to it someday and read it properly.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 14:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Paradise Lost is an interminable read - my copy is annotated, after a while I stopped reading the verse and just read the annotations. I should return to it someday and read it properly.
 
Really...? I read it in two days or so... those days in which I didn't have responsabilities... like these days though... LOL


Edited by jampa17 - May 26 2010 at 14:03
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 14:27
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Paradise Lost is an interminable read - my copy is annotated, after a while I stopped reading the verse and just read the annotations. I should return to it someday and read it properly.
 
Really...? I read it in two days or so... those days in which I didn't have responsabilities... like these days though... LOL
It's not a linear narative - each time he digresses from the story I also get sidetracked into the history and mythology he's referencing - many of which were unfamiliar to me. For example he mentions Thrones and Powers (capitalised) - until reading it I did not know that they referred to distinct choirs of angels, which took me off on tangents discovering more about what they actually were and how they fit into the hierarchy of the angelic host (this was before the days of the Internet and Wikipedia... so that meant libraries and text books).
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 15:30
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Paradise Lost is an interminable read - my copy is annotated, after a while I stopped reading the verse and just read the annotations. I should return to it someday and read it properly.
 
Really...? I read it in two days or so... those days in which I didn't have responsabilities... like these days though... LOL
It's not a linear narative - each time he digresses from the story I also get sidetracked into the history and mythology he's referencing - many of which were unfamiliar to me. For example he mentions Thrones and Powers (capitalised) - until reading it I did not know that they referred to distinct choirs of angels, which took me off on tangents discovering more about what they actually were and how they fit into the hierarchy of the angelic host (this was before the days of the Internet and Wikipedia... so that meant libraries and text books).
 
Right... Right... I don't know how you guys did before Internet... besides that as a member of a heavily influenced catholic family, I just need to ask my brother what this or that means to understand... you know, mythological relation and so on... but yeah, I totally see what was the problem... I admire such a complete argument full of knowledge from different traditions merged to build up the story... and now I want to read more...!!!
 
have you consider to buy a copy with notes bellow and analisys within...? I found that very useful though self investigation is more interesting... but it works...
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Points: 32595 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 15:36
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

... to translate abyss of fire to a interpretation of "death" is quite a long way... while angels to messenger is a correct translation... that was what I was saying...


Not really a long way at all.

The point (in Peter's epistle) was not just to say that evil "messengers" died, but that they were punished for their wickedness.  I think an abyss of fire would serve that purpose (think of Sodom and Gemmorah's end).
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 16:10
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

... to translate abyss of fire to a interpretation of "death" is quite a long way... while angels to messenger is a correct translation... that was what I was saying...


Not really a long way at all.

The point (in Peter's epistle) was not just to say that evil "messengers" died, but that they were punished for their wickedness.  I think an abyss of fire would serve that purpose (think of Sodom and Gemmorah's end).
 
mmm--- That make sense... Geek
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Points: 89372 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 16:31
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

 
Both wonderful writers... two of my favorite books... and yes, is evident how they mixed the different myths from greeks, romans and other superstition in their tales... way out of topic... I know..
Not off topic at all - this is the Atheist-Agnostic thread - it's all fiction and superstition to us Wink
 
LOL I will start the Divine Comedy as soon I end Crime and Punishment... is a promise... and I need a decent edition from Paradise Lost, but no money to buy it...


There's a Paradise Lost/Paradise Regained edition in English that looks quite good.  I think it's annotated too.
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Points: 5148 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2010 at 16:14
Wake up from the lies perpetuated by scientific academia religious one-ism and experience the Time Cube.

Edited by UndercoverBoy - November 02 2010 at 16:17
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