Atheist bus campaign

progmetalhead wrote: BaldJean wrote: Sasquamo wrote: Zargus wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Sasquamo wrote: Have you ever been Roman Catholic?  Maybe it's not based on fear, but it definitely made me scared.  For further support, check out page ten of this thread, where you said that those who believe in God do not worry and immediately three different people said they worried more when they were religious.   I have been Roman Catholic for 44 tyears and never felt fear, I know God forgives any sin.   If somebody feels fear, well probablt doesn't know too much aboput Catholicism.   Iván   If he does what is hell for then?     Hell is for those who are unrepentant or whose apologies God doesn't accept due to insincerity.  And there's no way of knowing for sure if you're forgiven or not, hence the worrying.  What if you're not sure if you're being sincere in asking for forgiveness?  Is just being sorry enough, or do you need to pray specifically for forgiveness, or is going to Confession the only thing that will work?  After a while when you hurt somebody, concern for the person you actually hurt takes a back seat to concern over getting forgiven.  It's a huge load of BS and one of the many reasons why I hate religion. I won't even argue whether you are right or wrong about Roman-Catholicism. you do, however, make the mistake of concluding "since Roman Catholicism is BS (as you put it), all religion is BS". that's a rather unfounded assumption. and, as remarked before, it has nothing whatever to do with the possible existence of a deity. even if all religions were "wrong" (whatever that means in that context) there still could be a deity. this is simple so because all religions create an image of a deity, and that image may have nothing whatever in common with the true nature of the deity   I've seen this several times now and I'm puzzled. Am I wrong in suggesting that we were supposedly created in his image? As written by the same people who eventually created the bible.  ....of which all the bits that were slightly controversial or suggested otherwise were left out by a later "court".  ...and which some people live and die by? Didn't a decent chap called Jesus "walk" the earth, supposedly his son? (alongside tens of others by the way that were calling themselves the messiah at the time) I tell you what I'll write a book and leave out all the good bits and call it a work of fiction. Nuff said.

you are wrong; this is only true (and not even in the sense you use it) for all religions who are of Jewish offspring.
anyway, that was not what I said at all. all religions ascribe certain properties to their deity, thus creating an image of it, would you not agree? now let us just assume for a moment that there is a God indeed, then who says he or she or it is as any of these religions proclaim? if God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all? it is just as impossible for us as it is impossible for an ant to grasp the nature of a human being.
of course it has to be noted that you, as several others before, picked on a certain religion and generalized from there


Edited by BaldJean - March 16 2009 at 12:41

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps we may have it all the wrong way around and that what people think of as God, is in fact Satan and that Satan is in fact God?

I know it sounds silly but it would answer the question why God allows so much crap on this Earth.  Satan (i.e. God) meanwhile sits comfortably on his/her throne and laughs at the worshipers of God (who is in fact Satan).

Please do not feel annoyed or insulted by this idea, I am only being trite and deliberately obtuse.


Edited by James - March 16 2009 at 13:22

I say we start a holy war over this topic, who's with me or against me? 

BaldFriede wrote: Chris S wrote: ^ My only question to your statement Jean is....." If God indeed is such a superior being, then how can we mere humans be expected to grasp his/her/its true nature at all"....   Well if he/she is such a superior being then why create such a flawed self destructive species? If there is a God then how can his/her perfect ' creations' be allowed under a universal law to ethnic cleanse, practice paedaphilia,butcher, rape, suicide bomb etc etc. My problem herein lies in that any ' superior' being should prohibit such actions that the subconscious active state of humans and consequences shakes the very foundation of Nature itself.   Maybe this superior being if exists will ask for our forgiveness one day for not intervening....Very interesting discussion though if we can all avoid personal insults If the world is flawed, then you obviously have ideas how it could be better. Why don't you tell us about them?

Edited by Chris S - March 16 2009 at 15:59

I still fail to grasp how insulting certain religious beliefs can be called a personal insult.  If I have a different opinion, I should be able to state that opinion, and if something makes me angry, I should be allowed to use an angry word to describe it.  Did I ever once insult a specific person?  No, all I did was state my opinion about beliefs that I think are stupid.  I never said that people who believe in those things are stupid, because that's not true.

Also, I agree with you that the reasons I gave for how religion made me fearful are absurd and don't make any sense, but they are also the truth.  Feelings are complicated.  Maybe it doesn't make any sense for me to say that I couldn't tell if I was sincere or not, but I didn't, and I know many many people who feel the exact same way.  I really can't explain.  It's like, the more I delved down and thought, I started thinking about how getting forgiveness was helping me and I wanted forgiveness for my own good, but I truly was sorry and wanted to make things better, but I also wanted to get rid of my sins, so maybe I'm sincere but maybe I'm not...it's extremely confusing and probably would make a lot more sense if I didn't analyze and just ran with it.  So if you want, you can make the argument that me and all those other people "just don't get it," but that doesn't change the fact that those beliefs were having extremely negative effects on me and the other people I know who currently hold them.

Peter wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: I say we start a holy war over this topic, who's with me or against me?    Tra la laaaaa!

 

Hold on, I'll get my bus pass

Sasquamo wrote: First off, I never told a specific person their beliefs were BS, I was using my own prior beliefs as a template.  It was an over-arching statement, obviously not in response the the views of any one person.  Regardless, if someone told me my beliefs were BS, I would recognize it for what it is: an opinion.  I have an opinion, they have an opinion, and I'm strong enough in my opinions that someone expressing a different opinion isn't going to affect me.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 16 2009 at 18:37

The T wrote:   Satan is mostly a Christian deity (even tough some version is present always in other religions) so believing in him without believing in Christianity is quite illogical and incoherent.

Sasquamo wrote: I still fail to grasp how insulting certain religious beliefs can be called a personal insult.  If I have a different opinion, I should be able to state that opinion, and if something makes me angry, I should be allowed to use an angry word to describe it.  Did I ever once insult a specific person?  No, all I did was state my opinion about beliefs that I think are stupid.  I never said that people who believe in those things are stupid, because that's not true.

How true. In fact, (and I fear I'm getting involved in this little debate - I'm just having fun reading it) I think the only person who is being insulting to any individual in this thread is Ivan_Melgar_M. He said this to Sasquamo:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   Since the first post and to be honest since a long time ago, I said I believe in the catholic religion, you replied to MY POST saying Catholic religion beliefs are BS...Then you told a specific person ME, that my beliefs are bull sh!t.

 
He didn't write any of that to you. You have to be a little selfcentered to actually believe that.

I love a lot of things related to the Catholic Church: the art, the architecture, the music, all its beauty...
Its not meant as a compliment to you that I think your religion has many beautiful buildings, and that Palestrina, Monteverdi mm composed beautiful sacred music. (I'm going to a church-concert later today, Pergolesi: Stabat Mater). I have no respect for a lot of other things: mostly the misuse of power  by many of their leaders in all kinds of disgusting ways, their fatal ban of condom use etc...

Neither of these things, positive or negative, relates to directly to someone (like you). So you shouldn't think: oh nice, he is complimenting and respecting my faith, or: He is attacking my faith!

Btw: I didn't manage to read your long post on top of the page, properly. Its a complete mess. Please, try and clean it up.