/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
|
Reviews discussion |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 140141142143144 182> |
| Author | |||||
debrewguy 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:52 |
||||
Ah, there we have it, the most appropriate word - popular. I wonder if re-wording the top so & so lists would make it less irritating to some people ... But then, I suppose some would then begin the argument that some are more "popular" than others because they're less proggy ...  |
|||||
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|||||
 |
|||||
|
Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:11 |
||||
Nothing to do with Ego for me......its just interesting to see which is most popular for each year/genre or whatever.
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:09 |
||||
I think sometimes it becomes an ego thing. As in - the great groups rule the top ten; of course they're my favourites, I only listen to 'GOOD" stuff. It's fun to disagree & debate, but hardly anything to get upset over... except for the omission of Klaatu from 2 of the top spots  |
|||||
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 17 2007 at 17:06 |
||||
Well I'm no teen but I like lists. Its not an age thing I believe.
|
|||||
|
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20703 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 17 2007 at 16:42 |
||||
Eh Yargh,
long time no read!!!
I agree with those rankings getting way too much attentionfrom everyone (or almmost).
But when you're a teenager, you like those top lists, you study them and almost memorize them. I used to love those radio top 1000 albums inthe 70's
Today, I couldn't care less.
As for the weighing factor, I only patially appreciate it, but it's the best way to moderate unreal overall album averages
|
|||||
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||
|
|||||
|
tuxon
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 23:41 |
||||
|
|||||
|
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 21:44 |
||||
I support your proposal re : different weighting for reviews. It would motivate most of us to do more than give an album a score, and give more value to ratings by our "experts". As for the concern of people making a concerted & conscious effort to bring down or goose up an album's avg score, well, let's face it - it's an inherent fault in any community poll. Some will do that. Most don't. But don't forget that you have a right to your opinion. IF one is so lacking in self esteem as to do either, they should at least know that one person's efforts make little difference in the total. I mean, can you really argue that the number one album is way much better than album number 15. The difference in total score must be pretty small. So unless your ego needs to see your fave album at number one, you likely can think of better thing to do with your time. We can all admit that there are highly rated albums that some of us strongly believe are overrated, and vice-versa. But I would be surprised that anyone here would love Gentle Giant any less because they don't have any albums in the top ten. OR love Genesis any more just because they have a few in the top 50. That's the purpose of forums & polls. You can discuss in detail(or not) why you like or don't like an album. The lists are simply an imperfect reflection of group thinking, no more & no less. Edited by debrewguy - May 16 2007 at 21:53 |
|||||
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005 Status: Offline Points: 421 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 18:02 |
||||
|
As long as the laughable system of weighting the scores of collaborators higher than that of other reviewers persists, it seems ridiculous to complain about ratings without reviews. Ratings without reviews allows one to present his/her musical tastes in a quick and efficient manner -- so that when he/she does go about writing some reviews of those albums, his/her point of view can be ascertained by a prospective reader.
People are getting way too hung up on an album's aggregate rating. A simple solution is to get rid of them. Post them once per year, or something. I mean, who really cares?
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 17:55 |
||||
|
I am not a fan of progmetal, imagine I start a vicious crusade against bands like Dream Theater by rating their albums with one star, without a review: who is punishing my bad behaviour in that case? The same goes for bands like Radiohead, Magnum, Iron Maiden, shall I go for one star rating without reviews only to feel good because I have released my frustrations without any punishment/correction, it's possible at Prog Archives Edited by erik neuteboom - May 16 2007 at 17:59 |
|||||
|
|||||
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 17:21 |
||||
I know ratings without reviews will not be prohibited but we should not encourage them IMHO for tghis reasons:
I agree leave them because there are some honest persons that rate an album in an objective way, but we have to encourage the effort of the people who also make a review to support a rating. I say give Rartings without reviews weight one (01), Ratings with Review weight three (03) and ratings with review from a collaborator weight five (05).
If I see an album with 5 dstars, I want to know why in hell the reviewer gave so high rating not because he/she likes the band or one star becausethat person wants SEBTP to be N° 1 instead of Close to the Edge.
Iván
Iván
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 12:09 |
||||
As long as you give Klaatu's first 2 albums 4 or 5 stars, I would say, in advance, that I think you write "spot on" reviews.  But seriously, Sean's take on reviewing is pretty good. Unless you know the album by heart, it's not a bad idea to have it playing while you review. Especially if you happen to have a rather large collection, it can be hard to say that you aren't missing anything when reviewing it 3 months after you last heard it. Which is why I haven't reviewed anything so far. I put the CD in, sit down, then notice that the album is still growing on me - HEY ! that's a great song, what's the name again ???  |
|||||
|
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 11:48 |
||||
Thanks,
I can write a decent review, but it takes me too long to get it right, which is not a problem since I still like doing it, but I've thrown away some 200 reviews and started over from scratch because i couldn't nail it, and ultimatly throwing it away, still not a problem for me since i know what i like, but those albums are now unreviewed and unrated by me, while a rating of these albums could help putting my other reviews in the right perspective for other users. or simple guide members to other albums i like (which is of interest if my likes are compatible with that members taste)
as for DB's ratings it would be helpfull if we could sort his ratings (and yours) according to subgenre, that way you'll see his and your ratings make sense.
 (making sense doesn't mean you have to agree with the ratings)anyway, i think I'll start a new thread on rating without reviewing, and maybe one on reviewing itself aswell since i think that can be usefull for many of us. Maybe these posts should be relocated in reveiws discussion since this really isn't the right thread for it
 I think I should start it on how to improve this website, since that's my intention with this 3 year lasting crusade in favour of ratings without reviews
 and maybe it can shed new light on the perceived problem of fanboyism.
|
|||||
|
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20703 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 10:49 |
||||
Actually more than a question of skill it is question of organization and will. If you told me three years ago, I'd have written almost 2000 reviews, I wouldn't have believed you. But practice makes much better (never pretend you're perfect in a review, because nothing could be further from the truth, since it is all objective, even though I do try to be as subjective as I can).
My way of doing is listening to the album (that you know already fairly well) two or three times in a row, if necessary ( but now I find once while writing the review can be enough) while sitting in front of your open word document (and the remote control nest to the mouse) and just write whatever goes through your mind. On the other side of the mouse and laptop, I have some reference books to make sure that I give infos as correct as I can.
At first you'll have only small sentences scattered here and there, but it shouldn't be too hard to link them and even form sentences from two or three bits or ideas. It's almost like a puzzle. Let your finger type out what the music tells you.
If you work directly on the Site's review box, this will simply not work!!! Writing reviews live is nearly impossible (on top of it, when I tried it the first year, I lost a bunch of text by accidently cliking on the box frame, let alone the loss of connections). Just use Word than copy/paste the review once it's ready.
Most reviews don't last me more than one hour nowadays, and I wrote my Zep and Doors reviews while listening to other music in two nights, mostly, just because those albums I know almost by heart.
The more you write reviews, the more you'll know ahead of time what you'll want to say about the album, even if you haven't really thought about it beforehand.
Of course I get no distractions (my weeknights are spent mostly alone, listening to music, no phone, no TV, no kids or girlfriends and friends to disturb you). Doing this on WE nights is out of question of course.
Gerald, from your writing in posts, I think your English is quite competent enough to write good reviews.
------------------------------------------
As for DB's lists, they tell something about his tastes, but I can't figure out how he finds which is #18 and which is #19 and what happens when #20 , he likes it better than #15.....
|
|||||
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||
|
|||||
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21847 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 10:48 |
||||
I'm listening. BTW: Here's an example of interesting things you can do with ratings: http://progtology.com/db/users/_auto_2050257.xhtml?path=charts |
|||||
|
|||||
|
tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:34 |
||||
The problem is writting a review is a lot of work, I'm not a very good writter, and i'm limited in my vocabulaire, so it takes me two hours to write a review, and than I'm still not sure whether it actually says what i want it to say.
The same apply's for many others not counting people with very limited english skills.
there are currently lots of members who have reviewed maybe 10 albums, taken into account that most start with their personal favourite bands, and their favourite albums from those bands, these members are in danger of being called fanboys just because they haven't displayed the full range of likes and dislikes they have.
the first 10 reviews I did were mostly 5 star albums (Arena, Pendragon and Marillion) if I recall correctly, does that make me a fanboy, I guess so, but there is a context, which can only be seen if you see everything or at least more of what i know and like and dislike, which is still largely unknown to many and can be seen yet.
That's what i like about DallasBrian, he just rated 1000 albums, and I can brows through his ratings and see what may be of interest to me, or what I should probably avoid, that's a world of information that I wouldn't get when just reading his reviews since i don't have the time to read 1000 reviews, same with Sean trane and Erik Neuteboom etc. i'm only interested in their ratings, initially that says enough for me. of course once determined which artist i want to check out reviews become extra helpfull, but a review on itself is worthless you'll need a context to understand where the reviewer comes from.
and for people with only 10 reviews I have no use for those since i either know these 10 albums, or i know none of the albums, indefferent of the quality of the written review I have no purpose for it, since if I know the bands and albums I already have an opinion about it, if I don't know the bands and albums I don't know how to interpret the reviewer.
To get to the Snow Dog remark.
It's not about the album information, it's important information on the reviewer, to be able to understand his ratings better, and to see if your taste match.
VVVVVV yeah you're right sorry Edited by tuxon - May 16 2007 at 10:47 |
|||||
|
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 09:12 |
||||
Perhaps ratings without reviews should only aply to albums withless than, say, 20 reviews?
|
|||||
|
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
philippe
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 14 2004 Location: noosphere Status: Offline Points: 3597 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 08:36 |
||||
|
yes, that's a shame, I hope that Admins will react because it's not the first time that we discuss about it. All these results concerning rating without review are biaised. It’s not a vote for or against, it should only be an evaluation with comments. |
|||||
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 08:30 |
||||
I don't see any reason why ratings without reviews should be deleted.
I pretty much favor it above reviews actually. Certainly for a birdseye view of what an individual likes I have enough on 40 ratings of bands and albums that I know.
unfortunatly most people prefer to wright 40 reviews and leave the other 500 albums they know outside because they don't have the time or the need to write that review.
that's 460 albums that could have some meaningfull information added if only we were more openminded towards rating without reviewing.
of course a review is better, but for the site it would be better if we don't have all that many members with one or 10 reviews, that's not enough information to judge whether or not the reviewer is a trustworthy source of information and comparable to ones taste.
but i'm preaching to myself here, so why bother.
 |
|||||
|
I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 08:12 |
||||
|
As I said earlier: half a year ago I published a review about William Gray (4 or 5 stars, I don't know at this moment), within one day the average rating got a blow with a ridiculous one star rating without a review, this makes no sense and gradually Prog Archives will loose its credibility
|
|||||
|
|||||
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Online Points: 20703 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 16 2007 at 07:21 |
||||
And identically some albums are over-evaluated with no arguments to back them up.
Which is why I never trust the ratings on the PA, even if in the long run, they are becoming a good reflection of the album quality within the band's discography. But certainly not in regards/comparison with other discographies of similar groups.
|
|||||
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
|||||
|
|||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 140141142143144 182> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
Snow Dog wrote:
do I even have to explain where this agument fails to even hit space..
