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TheLastBaron View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 22:52
I think that bands that gain more popularity as a result of drastically changing thier sound to fit with what is popular at the time are selling out. Yet if a band keeps its unique sound and style mostly in tact but gains more fans than i tend to find that it is a matter of that band getting more exposure through different mediums and word of mouth and more people looking for something different to listen to, what drew me to prog was the desire to hear music that was more expressive instrumentally.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 26 2009 at 23:39
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 00:05
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.


Quoted because well, HP pretty much won this argument.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 00:31
Just for the sake of being cantankerous, I would say that Yes probably sold out more in '96 when they did the SLO concerts with the classic lineup then they ever did with Trevor Rabin in the '80s. 

Not that I am complaining at all. :D
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 11:15
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.


Exactly. In my opinion, he didn't do it for the money or popularity, but of course we don't know for sure. But what's wrong with wanting to start making different music if they just feel they want to do it? that's not selling out.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 16:14
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.
You've missed the important part of my post though, that its selling out when the change in direction is fairly quick (over one album to the next, or covering two albums, for example) and only to sell more records and therefore make more money. The reasons behind it could be external or internal, but the results are still the same and that its because the band/artist is looking to make more money/become more famoues/whatever.
 
I never suggested that Collins sold out in his solo career.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by SgtPepper67 SgtPepper67 wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.
How do you know that the shift to pop music was an external and not an internal one? I can give you throwaway pop albums, but Phil has been consistently making pop music for a long time now, even though he didn't have to.

I dont think the the reasons being internal or external matters too much, if theres a rappid shift in a band to make more radio friendly music specifically to sell more records, then its selling out. Collins solo career doesnt count because its what he intended for it, it didnt start as one thing and change to another to sell more.
What? Of course it matters, and the change has nothing to do with it. If Phil Collins decided "I want to write really simple pop music because I lurve it" that would not be selling out no matter when he decided that. Everybody assumes he did it because of the money, and maybe he did, but we, as observers, have no way of telling the difference.


Exactly. In my opinion, he didn't do it for the money or popularity, but of course we don't know for sure. But what's wrong with wanting to start making different music if they just feel they want to do it? that's not selling out.
Maybe, maybe not. 
I've heard Phil has basically renounced his prog past.  It sort of makes me think he sold out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:24
Why would renouncing prog make him be selling out? Wouldn't that make it more likely that he didn't sell out?
 
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:41
Agreed with both points.

Why is there this artificial barrier errected by prog fans between progressive and all other forms of music?Shouldn't the fans of this genre be the accepting ones?
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 21:45
Well, I wouldn't go that far because I still loathe Phil Collins' pop music, but I just find it difficult to conclusively say that he did it for the money. I have trouble believing somebody who was already successful as an artist would feel the need to do that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 22:47
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Well, I wouldn't go that far because I still loathe Phil Collins' pop music, but I just find it difficult to conclusively say that he did it for the money. I have trouble believing somebody who was already successful as an artist would feel the need to do that.


It seems that some posters (not Henry) are confusing what is implied by the term 'selling out' with say, 'compromising their artistic integrity' - in the case of the former as has already been stated, Collins had no material need to pursue pop success, but as for the latter, Phil is 'dead man walking'

'Selling out' is really about expediency (sacrifice of principles for personal gain) and if we were to find examples of this from prog, it would surely be restricted to those 2nd and 3rd division bands who didn't have the financial security afforded by the likes of ELP, Genesis, Yes etc
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 22:48
How did he compromise his artistic integrity exactly? 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2009 at 23:04
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

How did he compromise his artistic integrity exactly? 


I guess you could start with the fondant and formulaic piano fuelled ballads used in 'Romantic Comedies', the stiffer than a 90 year old kitten Motown covers, the warm and cosy nostalgic big band jazz atrocities, the assimilation of cyclic beatbox funk that makes pale Russian bank clerks seem positively urban etc (the list goes on)

Assuming you've heard any of Collins solo output (and I think you have) the question is at best disingenuous.

REO Speedwagon for "Progressive Electronic' anyone ?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 05:46
I can't believe what a bunch of snobs some progressive fans seem to be. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 06:22
Originally posted by maribor maribor wrote:

I can't believe what a bunch of snobs some progressive fans seem to be. 


We've seen this type of post a million times before and it's really starting to get plain vanilla tiresome. Do you think people who vote differently from you in elections or choose a brand of breakfast cereal you don't care for to be snobs ? (Nah, didn't think so, get over yerself). Without value judgements there wouldn't be either a forum or an archive about artists we deem to be progressive musicians. That's why Britney Spears/Boy Bands/Bay City Rollers/Madonna ain't on PA, it's because they ain't considered progressive, NOT because we're snobs.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 08:57
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out.

See Love Beach, Giant For A Day, anything Genesis did after And Then There Were Three, for examples.  Rush never were completely prog.  What they have done over the years has been completely consistant with their musical vision all along.
 
I agree. Love Beach, Giant for a Day, and Then There Were Three are a bit contrived by managment and record company. Can you picture some smuck in the control booth telling Ian Anderson what to write and how to write it? Or how to go about changing some grand composition to be more appealing to the mass? Could you imagine how suck egg we would feel if we heard the pieces before they were changed? Again I must say that the mere fact staring me in the face is that.....these people are not musicians. Look at what they have done to music. Think of all the great epic prog pieces or even rock songs they have toyed with. They so often have not received the blame by the mass. The mass is confused. There is no justice in this particular area. After being successful you are lucky to be in a position to tell the record company of your demands and coming to an agreement in favor of the artisitic approach of things. You are basically dealing with criminals. White collar criminals. It's not at all like running the plumbing supply business in which your father has handed down to you. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 10:51
Quote

Quote Also I think there is a stigma against bands coming from the opposite direction, where once the band has been "tainted" with mainstream success they are treated with suspicion when they try and go less commercial.


Which ones would you mention as examples? Yes' infamous Tales from the Topographic Oceans?


    Mansun's change in style from Attack of the Grey Lantern to Six springs to mind, although AotGL is far more of a progressive work than most give it credit for.


Edited by JonnyM79 - December 28 2009 at 10:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 11:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by maribor maribor wrote:

I can't believe what a bunch of snobs some progressive fans seem to be. 


We've seen this type of post a million times before and it's really starting to get plain vanilla tiresome. Do you think people who vote differently from you in elections or choose a brand of breakfast cereal you don't care for to be snobs ? (Nah, didn't think so, get over yerself). Without value judgements there wouldn't be either a forum or an archive about artists we deem to be progressive musicians. That's why Britney Spears/Boy Bands/Bay City Rollers/Madonna ain't on PA, it's because they ain't considered progressive, NOT because we're snobs.




But you are snobs if you consider other music than progressive inferior. You're just as bad as the jazz and classical purists. Your comments about Phil Collins say that you don't like his music. That's fine, but that doesn't mean it is in fact inferior. That's a matter of personal opinion. I think you're the one who passes judgment on people who think (or vote) differently, not me. Except if you voted for Bush - then you're a complete idiot. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 11:22
Originally posted by JonnyM79 JonnyM79 wrote:

Quote

Quote Also I think there is a stigma against bands coming from the opposite direction, where once the band has been "tainted" with mainstream success they are treated with suspicion when they try and go less commercial.


Which ones would you mention as examples? Yes' infamous Tales from the Topographic Oceans?


    Mansun's change in style from Attack of the Grey Lantern to Six springs to mind, although AotGL is far more of a progressive work than most give it credit for.
I did note in my Bio for Mansun that: 'In spite of the conceptual nature of the debut, with its grandiose production and almost Neo Prog approach to musical arrangement, critics were initially surprised by the overtly Progressive Rock nature of "Six"...'. However, in my personal opinion (which we are not supposed to put in Bio's), AotGL is a Crossover Prog album that compares favourably with some of the best Crossover and Neo Prog albums of the 90s.
 
Which is more than can be said of "Little Kix" - which is the third kind of "sell out" (which we haven't mentioned yet) - one enforced by the record label.Angry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2009 at 11:46
Ever since I joined the Forum, it has struck me that there are basically two types of opinion and people on this subject - those who regard anything no prog or pop as selling out, and those who really don't care that much, and who are prepared to accept the music for what it is, be it popular or otherwise.

I fall into the latter category. I think that Face Value was an exceptional LP. Clearly not remotely prog, but equally clearly a great expression of a man's divorce and the related emptions associated with that episode in his life. I have the following two solo LPs, and I dislike them both, aside from a couple of tracks. Not because I regard them as a sellout, but because they are not my cup of tea.

Each to their own I say. There is some great pop music out there. There is also a pile of rubbish, especially the Cowell produced rubbish which is basically bland and poor ripoffs of other people's material. That's what I hate. I respect all who produce their own material, no matter what the genre. It doesn't mean I have to like it, though.
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