Politically incorrect prog??

Atavachron wrote: ^ Except Fascists want to do a lot more than "say something", they want to enslave, torture, and kill you and everything you believe in.   And sadly they still exist today, secretly, despite their defeat in WWll, and would take any opportunity to capture the world.   You might find that hyperbolus ... I indeed hope it is.

Stressed Cheese wrote: But again, if I ask "is it okay to punch a nazi", I mean, is it okay to punch a nazi. Nothing more, nothing less. A nazi. Saperlipopette! wrote: ^^ Yeah I wouldn't trust your jugdement in regards to what's right either. I'm not particularly idealistic.  And you shouldn't. You should follow your own moral compass. And mine says that I don't have sympathy for nazis getting punched in the face. If yours says that punching that same nazi isn't justified, than I must respect that, even if I can't understand that. I think a State monopoly on violence is better than you running around and breaking the noses on people you dislike. I don't do that, nor advocate for that. Violence is usually wrong, but some people take their hate to such an extreme that they prove an exception to that rule. It's not about people I dislike, it's about people who seem to make it their main goal in life to make this world a worse place. I'm a very emphatic person - which I guess you'd just have to take my word on after all I said - but some people are not deserving of sympathy or respect.

Very quick, just to clear up in what appears to be a misunderstanding: Although we do see things differntly, this comment wasn't adressed to you (hence the ^^). That said: I simply don't believe in violence as a legitimate response to (non-threatening) words or opinions - period. That doesn't mean I can't understand where you're coming from - or that I think you are a violent person. I'm your typical "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - who's admittedly not really willing to die for anything of the sort. Freedom of speech is a fundamental right to me, which means I have to "tolerate the intolerable". 

^ It’s certainly avant-garde, and andI’ve never understood how to distinguish between non-prog ag and prog ag in an objective way. I’ll grant that this (and squeeze my macaroni)is certainly the least prog track on the album.

omphaloskepsis wrote: What happens if the person who you think is a Nazi claims that he/she is not a Nazi?

omphaloskepsis wrote: What happens if the person who you think is a Nazi claims that he/she is not a Nazi?

@Logan, I'll just keep this very short (or at least I'll try), because I think most people would've had enough of my ramblings by now. But the main thing is, I don't think violence is the answer. I don't think it's the just punishment. There's just some people that have lost their humanity to such a degree, that I either don't care that they get assaulted, or in some cases that they downright deserve to get a black eye. It's really that simple. I don't think it's the solution, I don't think we should systematically punch nazis in the face. It's just that it's morally perfectly fine by me, and if I think someone is bad enough, it might even be satisfying to see. The moment people start to overthink it, you lose what's at the heart of the matter - that I just really hate nazis.

Some food for thought though, here’s what Ayn Rand had to say about violence. I’m not an objectivist, but I heard some libertarian leanings here (which I agree with in principle), so it might be interesting to see what the mother of modern libertarians thinks about the topic.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 09 2023 at 01:19

Death Note is a good anime.

Stressed Cheese, or Ian if I may call you that, I don't think you're a bad person. And I also know sometimes that people are really bad according to beliefs and to cultural norms. Commonly it is because those people act in their own self-interest without concern/ consideration for others.

I agree that attacking someone will (most of the time) not be the thing to convince them of their wrongs. But that doesn't mean they deserve sympathy if they get attacked for their views. There's a difference. I know it probably won't solve anything, but again, that's the hypothetical taken too far. But we've also seen that people are getting a little bit too comfortable recently with their alt-right beliefs, and we've already seen where it leads when people try to take rights away from women and LGBT+ folks. Having a bit of a backbone regarding this isn't a bad thing IMO.

I agree that that does not mean they deserve sympathy, and as a corollary, I never bought into this idea that I hear from some people at this forum that you automatically deserve respect. For me it's not much about just deserts / what is deserved. And I believe in standing up to injustice, I just generally prefer a different way. I can think of many cases where violence may be required. I take issue with pacifism and I take issue with passiveism, or just being passive in the face of evils.

All this is true, but it's also too easy to excuse yourself or hide behind your upbringing. Yes, some people will legit believe that group X they were taught to hate is truly evil, twisted, an affront to god. But most people ain't that stupid, that I truly believe. A lot of people can't be persuaded by debate. Some heavy resistance might make them reconsider. But it can also isolate them further, and drive them further to their alt-corner. But all of that can't change the fact how I feel about punching a true-blooded nazi.

It can be too easy for people to use it as an excuse, and hide behind it, but there are reasons for what we we believe and how we behave, even if it can seem ineffable, and I want to recognise that as well. In that way it can be better to address the conditions that lead to general types of a****lery and worse. I like a pragmatic and thoughtful approach that also conforms to certain ethics. My fundamental assumption, by the way, involves thinking that a society that puts an emphasis on maximising well-being while minimising suffering tends to be a good one. Of course there are nuances, and even if people agree to that we might have very different approaches. And my ideal world would be both more compassionate and more rational.

That isolation is a problem, and pushing people to hide their views and conspire with others of similar mind out of sight can be a major problem. There is a saying that sunlight is the best disinfectant. I do think that both "sides" often push other into extremes. Not everyone is up to rational dialogue and people feel that their world views, which is also part of their personality, is threatened by differing views. AT PA I have seen how this leads to people trying to shut down conversations and how it has led to threats of violence (against people on a forum who we don't even really know because of different ideas -- pride is part of the problem).

I prefer a kind of dialectic to debate.

I'm fully against any form of physical punishment wrt our legal systems. And yet morally, things are more grey. To stress again, I don't go around beating people up. I don't try and get people beat up. But if some people can go around and get away with devoting their life to making life hell for other people, my moral compass tells me a black eye is them getting away easy. I do hope that you don't think of me as a bad person. I have a lot of sympathy and respect for people...but if they do not, I won't return the favor - upbringing be damned. I know reality is more complicated. I'm sure many people have seen friends or family go down the wrong end. I know I have - going from being a close family member to spouting anti-gay and anti-trans propaganda whenever they can. If you accept hate like that into your heart, you have to bear the consequences and can't come crying to me if someone cuts you out of your life or breaks your nose. And trust me, there's a lot of people who are less compromising than me - and with the way certain things are going in the world, I can't blame them.

I don't think of you as a bad person, and I don't want to treat disrespectful people respectfully and I don't like to tolerate the intolerant, or tolerate intolerant beliefs and belief systems.

And I am determinist (causal chains) who does think it often better not to think that way and take responsibility for ones actions even if one never had truly free will.

Anyway, apologies to the OP for derailing this thread, but I need to at least make clear what I mean, you know.

I didn't derail this thread, just added to the derailment, but I figure it could be nudged back on track if someone cares (might take some persistent nudging).

Edited by Logan - September 08 2023 at 19:28