"Selling Out"

Henry Plainview wrote: Well, I wouldn't go that far because I still loathe Phil Collins' pop music, but I just find it difficult to conclusively say that he did it for the money. I have trouble believing somebody who was already successful as an artist would feel the need to do that.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: How did he compromise his artistic integrity exactly?  I guess you could start with the fondant and formulaic piano fuelled ballads used in 'Romantic Comedies', the stiffer than a 90 year old kitten Motown covers, the warm and cosy nostalgic big band jazz atrocities, the assimilation of cyclic beatbox funk that makes pale Russian bank clerks seem positively urban etc (the list goes on) Assuming you've heard any of Collins solo output (and I think you have) the question is at best disingenuous. REO Speedwagon for "Progressive Electronic' anyone ? So what you meant is that progressive music has more merit than pop music. I was challenging that assumption.

Henry Plainview wrote: Why would renouncing prog make him be selling out? Wouldn't that make it more likely that he didn't sell out?

Evolver wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: Why would renouncing prog make him be selling out? Wouldn't that make it more likely that he didn't sell out? Maybe not. But he made a career, and his name playing with a number of progressive groups and artists.  He would not have a chance to play his uninteresting pop without that history.  Renouncing all that makes him an ungrateful t**t.  A sell-out?  Perhaps that's more for fans of Genesis to determine.

So Phil Collins has an obligation to you to keep making progressive music for you because he made it in the past?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: How did he compromise his artistic integrity exactly?  I guess you could start with the fondant and formulaic piano fuelled ballads used in 'Romantic Comedies', the stiffer than a 90 year old kitten Motown covers, the warm and cosy nostalgic big band jazz atrocities, the assimilation of cyclic beatbox funk that makes pale Russian bank clerks seem positively urban etc (the list goes on) Assuming you've heard any of Collins solo output (and I think you have) the question is at best disingenuous. REO Speedwagon for "Progressive Electronic' anyone ? So what you meant is that progressive music has more merit than pop music. I was challenging that assumption.

Yes I was aware of that, but with all due respect, you me and everyone else's value judgement is reflected in our wish to join the site. I like to think that any internet resource dedicated to what its members deem to be progressive music has to resemble the defining exclusiveness of PA  e.g. Calling a steakhouse 'the World's Worst Vegetarian Restaurant',  may be pedantically inclusive of all tastes, but you sound like an animal rights activist applying for a job as its chef. (but have no intention of taking up the position if successful )

On a more serious note, I would say that there is shed-loads of music out there that would not be considered either progressive or pop that I prefer to the Progressive Rock celebrated on these pages.
(So perhaps I do agree to a limited extent re your comment on 'merit')

For those who do not have compassion for sell outs, remember that many musicians (especially during their youth), are starstruck during that record label signing or the prospects of the outcome from touring. Many who don't realize their social surroundings and even those who do, will give in to the record company decisions. The unfortunate reality for many musicians is that they are working for criminals. The record executives have their private meetings in which they will decide which bands will be chosen for the highest promotion. Many bands will go to the back burner. A business that is ruled by true evil doings. Various musicians I knew who were tossed out of the band before getting signed. All because they refused to give sexual favours. Record scouts are notorious for that act. It's a very tough business because of the sexual over-indulgence from the higher ups. Drugs are of superb quality when handed down from a record company. All these pressures from the dark side of the music business should be taken into account as well. It's relates to the selling out process. Many musicians can't bare the criminal activity and they just bail out. It's a bit like visiting Hell. Dante's Inferno would be a far better comparision. All the different circles in Hell with each circle representing a specific group of criminals. These people should have a circle of their own.   

I knew this would get good, where is that popcorn smiley...

Evolver wrote: Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out. See Love Beach, Giant For A Day, anything Genesis did after And Then There Were Three, for examples.  Rush never were completely prog.  What they have done over the years has been completely consistant with their musical vision all along.

You should have said anything after Wind and Wuthering when talking about Genesis!!! That is the point where Genesis became Genesin't


Edited by Ellegon - December 29 2009 at 01:37

Henry Plainview wrote: Evolver wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: Why would renouncing prog make him be selling out? Wouldn't that make it more likely that he didn't sell out? Maybe not. But he made a career, and his name playing with a number of progressive groups and artists.  He would not have a chance to play his uninteresting pop without that history.  Renouncing all that makes him an ungrateful t**t.  A sell-out?  Perhaps that's more for fans of Genesis to determine.  So Phil Collins has an obligation to you to keep making progressive music for you because he made it in the past?

He has an obligation to not brush off the fans who liked him because of what he was, not what he became.   Without the popularity he gained in Genesis, he would not have become Britney.

Maybe the guy had kids. DT for him and miley for the kids. I remember cds i got for my daughter when she was only 5. I started her on Todd Rundgren. Commercial music always has and always will be the main, at least they create jobs for the musicians. Still amazed at how the average listener goes to a Yes concert or Genesis, etc etc. Thank God they do..

rick