Politically incorrect prog??

This thread got real depressing.

Getting punched in the face for saying something stupid is an age old tradition all around the world. Government can't protect you all the time. Most people with any common sense know not to say things that might get you smacked in the head.

^ I’m just responding to claims you or others are making. But sure, blame me. Or punch me in the face! I surely deserve it ;)

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 09 2023 at 00:09

Atavachron wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ What does it have to do with Europe? Please name your favorite country on this planet where it is legal to go up to someone and punch them in the face. As the seat of some of the most egregious Fascist civilizations ever, I think European history is quite relevant.    As for a legal place to punch someone I'm guessing Haiti but I could be wrong.   I certainly wouldn't want to live there, but don't miss the point : If a man wants to force women to have abortions, allow everyone to own military assault weapons, cheat on elections when they're side is losing, and wants me to go along with it, that's a problem.   Under such circumstances, if the only way I can convince him to stop it is to pick up my own gun (or better, punch him in the nose), then I might have to do that.   It's called standing up for yourself and what you believe in.

Edited by Atavachron - September 08 2023 at 16:02

^ What does it have to do with Europe? Please name your favorite country on this planet where it is legal to go up to someone and punch them in the face.

Atavachron wrote: Saperlipopette! wrote: ^^ Yeah I wouldn't trust your jugdement in regards to what's right either. I'm not particularly idealistic. I think a State monopoly on violence is better than you running around and breaking the noses on people you dislike. Oh...  r e a l l y ? So you believe in Totalitarian government... better to have secret police & trains running on time than a few fistfights in the street, is it?

Perhaps a bit off-topic but regarding censorship in Prog, this is a funny case:

^ That's not a totalitiarian government, but how an actual functioning democracy works. Taking the law in your own hands is anarchy.

Stressed Cheese wrote: ^^Logan, of course in that scenario violence isn't warranted, and that sounds like an awful thing to experience. A lot of people wouldn't have been able to keep things from escalating like you managed. Now I'm not a violent person myself (I've never once gotten into a fight - not even as a kid), and I'm not saying that there's a fool-proof way to determine when a punch is warranted. All I mean to say is, some people's views are so abhorrent that not only might you wish to see them punched, but if you did see it, it'd be satisfying. It comes down to the old question, "is it okay to punch a nazi?". Some people like to over-think this question, and come up with addendums like "who decides who's a nazi?", or "what if they're already being punished by law for the things they say", but that's besides the point. The answer, in a broad sense, is yes. Yes it is okay. At the end of the day, some opinions and statements go beyond mere disagreement and reach into detestable territory that it's only natural to want to see them suffer (to some degree - I doubt even the most progressive person would want to see a Nazi get lynched). E.g., regardless of whether or not, say, Theirry Baudet suffers legal ramifications for some of the things he says, I'd still be happy if I was him on the news with a black eye and a bloodied lip. Doesn't mean I'm going to be the one punching him, but my moral compass tells me he deserves it, and I have zero respect for the man. I know it's a bit off-topic and it has nothing to do with that biden parody anymore, but I felt like I should clear that up. Just so people don't think I go around punching people who cut me off in traffic or who disagree with me.

Oh, I understood you and had not assumed you to be the kind of droog who is up for a little of the old ultraviolence.

A problem I have is that in what scenario it is warranted is, outside of laws, subjective, and I think going the way of thinking it is okay in some cases of perceived or definite insult/ discrimination/ parody/ intolerance is very problematic.

I am not okay with punching a Nazi unless it is self-defence or used in the defence another person, and I don't think that it is an effective strategy that will win the hearts of people or change minds. If it was, then I might change my mind (as a moral consequentionalist kind of thinking). I'd happily see all murderers and rapists spontaneously get bloody noses. I knew a Neo-Nazi (for my college days), very intelligent guy with abhorrent views and a difficult upbringing and he came to change his mind as he studied at university. His ideas were challenged, not his face. Attack the argument, not the man, as the saying goes, unless you really need to. And be prepared to own up to and accept the consequences.

I would get no pleasure from seeing a beaten up Nazi, well I might well in some cases as with many other groups and individuals. and I heartily dislike violence. I have a strong a sense of empathy, and that goes towards people whose views I may find abhorrent. I also wonder why did they turn out that way? I'm a determinist. I can feel very sorry for some because they were raised with those views and surrounded by others with those views, and maybe they have not learned to be critical thinkers. It's like lot of people are raised with racist views or discriminatory religious views. Some aren't too smart, some want to fit in, some are just the dregs of humanity, the dispossessed and hopeless, who need to feel better than somebody else, group, or race. Trash as we might call them.

And I wish so many people did not think it acceptable to quickly resort to violence or to threats of it, or even to contemplate it as a course of action and legitimise and rationalise it as much as some do (often it's such an emotional reaction). It may be in our nature, but I think that has become far too normalised as a response and desire. I am not a big fan of retributive justice, I do tend to favour restorative justice, and I don't get pleased to see people hurt. Doesn't necessarily mean that I will be displeases depending on the scenario. Of course sometimes violence is necessary, particularly when acting on other's violence.

Oh and I am one that can see breaking the laws sometimes that one sees unjust or because of emergency as long as one is willing to accept the consequences, at least in a society like mine where we have more freedoms than in many places and generally norms and laws that I am on-board with.

On a side note, there is an anime called Death Note where someone has a notebook which you can use to execute people. I have thought that if I had that I would be using it -- maybe starting with a bad hostage situation or known murderer or rapist on the loose, then to other killers including world leaders who wage war on others and persecute people, and then, despite being against the death penalty on principle, maybe to get rid of a lot more people who might already be imprisoned, and then who knows?