Artists you question or object to in PA

The idea for this came up in the top ten bands you'd like to see in PA.

Keeping in mind that we add artists/bands rather than just albums (except in Various Artists) and so an act may be included specifically for the relevance of one or a few of many albums, I'd like people to present names of bands/artists while stating what they think would be the most relevant albums to PA if objecting to the inclusion, and why they think those specific albums don't fit. Sometimes when people complain they don't understand the reasons why something was included, nor have they heard the most relevant to its category albums (sometimes people do argue from ignorance). Listing what you think are the most relevant albums or what you think others would think the most relevant shows an awareness of the discography and artist..

Please be willing to discuss any objections in a civil, reasoned manner (this goes for any objections to ones included in PA, as well as objecting to those who suggest that something doesn't fit). Expect and be prepared for debate/ back and forth discussion. And please try to mention the category it is included in and to keep in mind the parameters in the category as written in the sub-genre definitions pages. It can help to read the bio too, as this often explains reasons why an act was included.

This is not intended to be just another lists type topic, I hope that people will explain where they are coming from, and be willing discuss that with anyone who has a different perspective. I hope people come with open-minds and open-ears.

This topic can also be used for those not very familiar with artists/bands who are not sure of suitability and might need some pointing in the right direction.

One that comes to my mind from one not that familiar to her music is Tori Amos (in Crossover prog), but I don't know her discography well enough to form a strong opinion about her suitability and do not object to the inclusion (and likely I wouldn't object even if I had a different perspective). Here is her bio: http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=5755

I hope this can be a positive discussion and a learning experience for some. I've done this in General Music Discussion because this topic includes ones included in the "Prog" (or Prog-proper or...)* subgenres as well as the Prog Related and Proto-Prog categories. I would judge each act, and the particular albums by the acts, in the context of the category. This isn't about what categories we would rather not be in PA or find inappropriate.

* I say this as to me there is plenty of music I would call Prog in Prog-Related and Proto-Prog so I feel uncomfortable calling those non-Prog categories, and indeed Proto-Prog has an early Prog/ embryonic Prog connotation. Pre-Prog and Prog-Precursor could works okay for some, but which came first the chicken or the embryo? But I digress.

Edited by Logan - June 21 2021 at 10:43

Psychedelic Paul wrote: I don't have a problem with any of the artists included here, but there are some artists I feel may be better-suited to being assigned to a different genre. For instance..... Affinity:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz Rock/Fusion Alquin:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz/Rock Fusion Jon Anderson:- From Prog Related to Crossover Prog Audience:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz Rock/Fusion Kate Bush:- From Crossover Prog to Prog Related Dead Can Dance:- From Prog Folk to Eclectic Prog David Gilmour:- From Prog Related to Crossover Prog Jon Lord:- From Prog Related to Symphonic Prog Mostly Autumn:- From Prog Folk to Eclectic Prog Vangelis:- From Prog Related to Progressive Electronic ....to name just a few.

I'm glad you brought that up actually. I was thinking when writing about that issue but then didn't mention it as that is related. I might edit into my first post something on that topic later. I too would favour Kate Bush in Prog-Related (love the mighty Bush). I think Vangelis could maybe go in Crossover Prog (because he is eclectic and mainstream and not of the Berlin school and related ilk). I'd sooner see Kitaro in Prog-Related (the early albums are the most convincing to me for PA). Dead Can Dance, I think I might put it in Crossover for its alternative/ indie qualities (I really love Dead Can Dance). With Affinity, while it has jazz-rock qualities, I also hear psych, some symph and heavy prog qualities, so to me it fits well enough in Eclectic Prog as it has qualities of various Prog genres.

Progishness wrote: ^ I'm mystified as to why Miles Davies and The Who are here too. I'd also query the inclusion of Rush, Styx, Queen, and Kate Bush. [Probably also much of Tech/ Extreme Metal and JR fusion.] Santana I'd put in prog related, as to me their style has been more like Latin rock than Jazz.

I would think Santana better suited to PR too even though I think Caravanserai fine for JRF. As for Rush, that's interesting, and would like to know more of your thinking (you probably elaborated on it in one of those Rush threads). The first Rush album I got to know and love is Hemispheres (this was in the 80s, and I sure thought it was prog). Some big acts might have been added for clicks and hits (I think that may be part of the reason why we have the Prog Related category, or at least why some acts were added. It's more complicated than that cause in the early site days there wasn't the same quality control, and lots got moved to other categories. The Art Rock category was robust). As for the Who I've never questioned its suitability for one of the so-called "non-Prog" categories. Kate Bush, PR I'd sooner her in (I do think she has her prog moments, Rocket's Tail with Gilmour, the Ninth Wave suite). Queen and Styx I don't listen to much. I seem to remember that Queen was originally in the now defunct Art Rock sub. PA has a complicated history, and so is there a level of inconsistency as approaches and standards have changed, and as the site has evolved as a database and with team management.


Edited by Logan - June 21 2021 at 13:12

Psychedelic Paul wrote: I don't have a problem with any of the artists included here, but there are some artists I feel may be better-suited to being assigned to a different genre. For instance..... Affinity:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz Rock/Fusion Alquin:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz/Rock Fusion Jon Anderson:- From Prog Related to Crossover Prog Audience:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz Rock/Fusion Kate Bush:- From Crossover Prog to Prog Related Dead Can Dance:- From Prog Folk to Eclectic Prog David Gilmour:- From Prog Related to Crossover Prog Jon Lord:- From Prog Related to Symphonic Prog Mostly Autumn:- From Prog Folk to Eclectic Prog Vangelis:- From Prog Related to Progressive Electronic ....to name just a few.

moshkito wrote: Psychedelic Paul wrote: I don't have a problem with any of the artists included here, but there are some artists I feel may be better-suited to being assigned to a different genre. For instance..... Affinity:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz Rock/Fusion Alquin:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz/Rock Fusion Jon Anderson:- From Prog Related to Crossover Prog Audience:- From Eclectic Prog to Jazz Rock/Fusion Kate Bush:- From Crossover Prog to Prog Related Dead Can Dance:- From Prog Folk to Eclectic Prog David Gilmour:- From Prog Related to Crossover Prog Jon Lord:- From Prog Related to Symphonic Prog Mostly Autumn:- From Prog Folk to Eclectic Prog Vangelis:- From Prog Related to Progressive Electronic ....to name just a few.  Hi, I kinda of agree ... we probably need to revisit where some of these things were placed, and why. The main concern still is, that many of these changed some over time, and then later they did not fit. As an example, I could like to see DCD moved to something like ... "New Age Quasi Prog" ... as it feels way too cardboard and fake for me, and I don't find the lyrical content that strong at all.

moshkito wrote: The main concern still is, that many of these changed some over time, and then later they did not fit.

One band I object to is Jeronimo. They are the German answer to Creedence Clearwater Revival, and we highly doubt anyone would want to include them. The two bands even released an album together in 1970 called "Spirit Orgazmus", with side one being by CCR and side two by Jeronimo.


Edited by BaldFriede - June 21 2021 at 14:27

One I'm hoping someone will bring up is Cardiacs. I know Tim Smith didn't want to be called Prog, preferred the term pop, but I have argued before over the Prog and progressive merits of Cardiacs. I support it in PA. I might like to see it moved to Crossover Prog, though. I don't feel it's quite eclectic enough for a great Eclectic fit, though it could go there. It's not very avant-garde and of course it's not RIO. There's something rather Neo-Prog about it to me without being Neo-Prog. I would quite like it in one of the art rock subs for its art punk qualities (mind you, there is huge overlap between categories and it doesn't really matter). Square pegs in round holes and all that. Placement isn't as important to me commonly now as it was (more-so while on the Eclectic team).

The Residents is another I support in PA, but not all have, and that might be an interesting one to debate. Nightwish, not really interested (but that's just me as I'm more interested in those I am very into or have been into).

Of course we could debate whole categories, but that is something I wish to avoid. I'd rather accept the categories and the definitions, and then see if people think the most relevant albums by the acts fit or don't fit, and as an auxiliary how well they fit overall. Then we might consider if it does better fit another category, or none at all.

Edited by Logan - June 21 2021 at 15:18

Logan wrote: Of course we could debate whole categories, but that is something I wish to avoid. I'd rather accept the categories and the definitions, and then see if people think the most relevant albums by the acts fit or don't fit, and as an auxiliary how well they fit overall. Then we might consider if it does better fit another category, or none at all.