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richardh View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 04 2025 at 20:01
^ love that album!
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On my digital playlist of BBS (the album) I have BSS (the track) slotted in *between 'Benny the Bouncer' and 'Karn Evil 9' which for me makes for a nice enhanced version of the album..

*maybe where it was originally intended to be, but was ultimately dropped (possibly) due to the constraints of what you can fit on two sides of a slab of vinyl.

Edited by Floydoid - March 04 2025 at 10:49
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^ I like So Far To Fall although it might fall into the 'goofy' territory slightly (''She did a thing to my thing like it's never been done before''). Although only a cover I also like Show Me The Way To Go Home. ELP in relaxed bar room mode.
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That could work. I thought about this not too long ago.

Another possibility could be to have several band compositions (the two Works 1 songs plus "So Far to Fall") spread across the album then one solo piece for each member, like Yes's "Fragile".

Side A
Fanfare for the Common Man
Any of Keith Emerson's solo works
C'est La Vie or Closer to Believing
Brain Salad Surgery or When the Apple Blossoms Bloom

Side B
So Far to Fall
The Enemy God or LA Nights
Pirates

Edited by BasedProgger - March 04 2025 at 08:48
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^ That version of Bolero on 'Works Live' is brilliant.  At no point in the discussion so far is the fact that ELP were primarily a live band and 'Works Live' is a fine testament.  Other recordings of that period such as Live at Nassau Coliseum are excellent, especially as this shows what the band could do although they had ditched the orchestra at this point (i.e. Emerson's reworking of Pirates, etc).
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Originally posted by BasedProgger BasedProgger wrote:

Works vol. 1 isn't on the same level of quality as their first four albums but I do find each side to be better than the last. If Works vol. 1 was a single album that only consisted of the band efforts and Carl Palmer's solo works, I'd enjoy it more.

Perhaps maybe for the band I would combine the best of Lake and Palmer's side for a killer side 2.:
Fanfare for The Common Man
Pirates
The Enemy God
Hallowed By Thy Name
LA Nights
C'est La Vie
Food For Your Soul
Closer To Believing

Perhaps a Keith Emerson solo album combining Vol 1 and 2 might have been worth exploring:
Piano Concerto No1 
Honky Tonk Train Blues
Maple Leaf Rag
Barrelhouse Shakedown
Abaddon's Bolero (Orchestral version)*

* this was recorded the same time as Piano Concerto No 1 and eventually found its way onto Emerson's 1995 solo album Changing States as a bonus track.
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^ It's not really about classical-influenced prog competing with classical, it's about the blend of the two realms and how an artist approaches that.   What makes prog & fusion interesting is the mix of different genres, not whether those genres are well-represented individually.   That would be more like purism, and prog rock fans have never really been too interested in that in their prog or rock fusion.   
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Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

It was evident that ELP had lost its inventiveness after Brain Salad Surgery and a tiring tour. They chose to have a double LP with each member contributing a side and the last side being a collaborative effort, instead of a one-disc album where they perform as a group. And the result of such a decision is probably the most terrible double-LP album in the history of the genre. Only Lake's material has some lovely moments as well as parts with him on the vocals on Pirates.

Love Beach, despite its awful sleeve design, is a masterpiece album in comparison with Works.


Only Lake's material? What about Piano Concerto No. 1? It's a genuinely good avant-garde, psychedelic, neo-classical song. It's on par with The Nice live records such as Five Bridges. Yes, it is messy, but isn't that the point of this kind of music?

In his early musical days, Keith Emerson refused his music teacher's suggestion for him to study classical music in London because young Emerson had little interest in classical music at the time and chose jazz piano. With the popularity of progressive rock, however, Keith Emerson was recognized as a very talented keyboard player who often fuses rock and classical music sounds, and as a first-class entertainer, gifted for extroverted and theatrical performances—firstly in The Nice and then in the trio Emerson, Lake & Palmer—he became a superstar in the 70s, perhaps one of the most iconic that ever existed in rock music, and such fame may have been the reason Keith Emerson developed an egomaniacal aspiration to be recognized as a serious classical music composer as well, and that ambition led him to create Piano Concerto No. 1. But this grand ambition has exceeded his writing skills in the classical genre. The Piano Concerto No. 1 is shallow and lacks refinement and sounds mechanical. Although the idea was to produce something substantial, the execution fell short of the expectations one has with classical music.

For those who frequently engage with classical music and are well-acquainted with the compositions of renowned composers, the initial two movements of Keith Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 may come across as lacking originality and exhibiting a formulaic structure. These movements do not have the richness or emotional depth of more typical concertos from the classical masters. The excessive use of standard forms and tropes dilutes the overall impact of the piece, rendering it less memorable than other pieces in the genre. Although the third movement in Emerson's concerto is more lively, it is also much different from the first two movements, and that inconsistency may disturb the listener in attempting to see cohesion within the work as a whole. A perfect concerto has to have stylistic coherence of some variety throughout its multiple movements, something that Piano Concerto No. 1 does not possess. 
Compared to piano concertos by renowned composers, such as those Keith Emerson aspired to be like, it lacks content.



Thanks for your explanation. I do think though that the Brahms comparison is a bit out of place. It is much closer to Stravinski at core. I think the messiness is a feature, not a bug. You are in for a crazy psychedelic ride, and you expect an epic classic tune. ELP has always been more avant-garde jazzy-esque or blue-esque than traditional European music.
One could find worth in both pieces. Even a silly gnome statue from the garden can find a cherished place in our hearts. Though, one can't help but notice that, in contrast to Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1, Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 has the depth of a kiddie pool.


Pretty weird statement. In contrast to Prokofiev's Battle on Ice or Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde, Close to the Edge also has the depth of a kiddie pool and so is a lot of prog classics. It reminds me of jazz purists bashing on Steely Dan because it is closer to Yacht Rock than real stuff like Coltrane and the likes. As much as I like Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman, they will never be as good as Ravel.
I understand what you are trying to say. However, Keith Emerson had no intention of making another "normal," just longer-duration progressive rock track; I mean, something like, let's say, a supposed Tarkus 2. In interviews, he expressed a desire to create music that could stand alongside classical masterpieces while, due to blending it with progressive rock elements, still appealing to a contemporary audience. This ambition is evident in his Piano Concerto No. 1, where he didn't use just classical music sounds here and there but directly employed orchestral arrangements and harmonies of classical music. It is clear from his compositional style and aspirations that he intended Piano Concerto No. 1 to be taken seriously within the classical tradition while showcasing his unique voice as the then-prog-rock superstar. 
Thus, it has to be said that Emerson's ambitious attempt to blend progressive rock with classical music yet to be at the level of classical masters was ultimately unsuccessful on his Piano Concerto No. 1, which is, by the way, the central piece at Works, the album you are trying to "defend."


I get your point. Nothing much to add. I'd be curious to know your opinion of classical-influenced prog like Gentle Giant or PFM. Should it compete with classical music?

Thanks for bringing up Joan Tower, her music is amazing.

Edited by Nergdnur Ddot - March 02 2025 at 12:55
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Like many such albums, Works 1 is a good album that could have been a great album distilled down to one record. In fact, I would go far as to say one could distill Works 1 and Works 2 into one album and have a masterpiece.

Side One
"C'est la Vie"
"Hallowed Be Thy Name"
"L.A. Nights"
"Nobody Loves You Like I Do"
"Maple Leaf Rag"

Side Two
"Tiger in the Spotlight"
"The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits"
"I Believe in Father Christmas"
"Fanfare for the Common Man"

Stripped of bloat and pretension, focusing on songwriting yet still highlighting each member, the album could perhaps have been ELP's most popular. It would be fun (and the great addition of Joe Walsh on "L.A. Nights" is the very definition of fun). It certainly would have staved off ELP's eventual decline and stagnation, and might have even changed the pervading critical view of the band as prog dinosaurs.


It would be better but I'm not sure it would have been more popular than their earlier albums. I personally would trade "Nobody Loves You Like I Do" for "Closer to Believing" and all of the Works 2 songs (with the possible exception of "Maple Leaf Rag") for "Pirates".
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Works vol. 1 isn't on the same level of quality as their first four albums but I do find each side to be better than the last. If Works vol. 1 was a single album that only consisted of the band efforts and Carl Palmer's solo works, I'd enjoy it more.
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Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

...
It is clear from his compositional style and aspirations that he intended Piano Concerto No. 1 to be taken seriously within the classical tradition while showcasing his unique voice as the then-prog-rock superstar. 
Thus, it has to be said that Emerson's ambitious attempt to blend progressive rock with classical music yet to be at the level of classical masters was ultimately unsuccessful on his Piano Concerto No. 1, which is, by the way, the central piece at Works, the album you are trying to "defend."

Hi,

Similar, but not the same, is Frank Zappa's comments, many times, about "serious music" and he went on to create so much stuff that we can not even sit and appreciate some of the avant-garde material he put together, and where he fits in terms of composition ... just recently I head DD do The Adventures of Greggery Peccary" ... and even he admitted that the compositional side of that whole thing was incredible and insane. And he even made the point that he bet that it was all scored, for folks to play ... and when you hear it ... good gracious ... how can one person come up with so much?

Keith, was not as much under the radar as Frank was, meaning that he could not get away from the fan side and the critical side of rock music ... Frank had already in his early years, flipped a lot of that stuff off and went on to create a lot of material that a lot of folks could not handle ... but these days, are so appreciated in a much better light, than we are in terms of Keith's work. 

I simply, find it really sad, that even in his dead state, he can not be a serious composer, because ... so many of us don't like it. The whole thing is so surreal it's not even funny!
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^ People are allowed to like this music. It's just not your own opinion that counts. Why not put up some reviews from classical magazines for instance. Where is classical music nowadays? Does it have all the snobby elitism of prog rock? I guess so!
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Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

It was evident that ELP had lost its inventiveness after Brain Salad Surgery and a tiring tour. They chose to have a double LP with each member contributing a side and the last side being a collaborative effort, instead of a one-disc album where they perform as a group. And the result of such a decision is probably the most terrible double-LP album in the history of the genre. Only Lake's material has some lovely moments as well as parts with him on the vocals on Pirates.

Love Beach, despite its awful sleeve design, is a masterpiece album in comparison with Works.


Only Lake's material? What about Piano Concerto No. 1? It's a genuinely good avant-garde, psychedelic, neo-classical song. It's on par with The Nice live records such as Five Bridges. Yes, it is messy, but isn't that the point of this kind of music?

In his early musical days, Keith Emerson refused his music teacher's suggestion for him to study classical music in London because young Emerson had little interest in classical music at the time and chose jazz piano. With the popularity of progressive rock, however, Keith Emerson was recognized as a very talented keyboard player who often fuses rock and classical music sounds, and as a first-class entertainer, gifted for extroverted and theatrical performances—firstly in The Nice and then in the trio Emerson, Lake & Palmer—he became a superstar in the 70s, perhaps one of the most iconic that ever existed in rock music, and such fame may have been the reason Keith Emerson developed an egomaniacal aspiration to be recognized as a serious classical music composer as well, and that ambition led him to create Piano Concerto No. 1. But this grand ambition has exceeded his writing skills in the classical genre. The Piano Concerto No. 1 is shallow and lacks refinement and sounds mechanical. Although the idea was to produce something substantial, the execution fell short of the expectations one has with classical music.

For those who frequently engage with classical music and are well-acquainted with the compositions of renowned composers, the initial two movements of Keith Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 may come across as lacking originality and exhibiting a formulaic structure. These movements do not have the richness or emotional depth of more typical concertos from the classical masters. The excessive use of standard forms and tropes dilutes the overall impact of the piece, rendering it less memorable than other pieces in the genre. Although the third movement in Emerson's concerto is more lively, it is also much different from the first two movements, and that inconsistency may disturb the listener in attempting to see cohesion within the work as a whole. A perfect concerto has to have stylistic coherence of some variety throughout its multiple movements, something that Piano Concerto No. 1 does not possess. 
Compared to piano concertos by renowned composers, such as those Keith Emerson aspired to be like, it lacks content.



Thanks for your explanation. I do think though that the Brahms comparison is a bit out of place. It is much closer to Stravinski at core. I think the messiness is a feature, not a bug. You are in for a crazy psychedelic ride, and you expect an epic classic tune. ELP has always been more avant-garde jazzy-esque or blue-esque than traditional European music.
One could find worth in both pieces. Even a silly gnome statue from the garden can find a cherished place in our hearts. Though, one can't help but notice that, in contrast to Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 1, Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 has the depth of a kiddie pool.


Pretty weird statement. In contrast to Prokofiev's Battle on Ice or Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde, Close to the Edge also has the depth of a kiddie pool and so is a lot of prog classics. It reminds me of jazz purists bashing on Steely Dan because it is closer to Yacht Rock than real stuff like Coltrane and the likes. As much as I like Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman, they will never be as good as Ravel.

Edited by Nergdnur Ddot - March 01 2025 at 12:12
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Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

Originally posted by Nergdnur Ddot Nergdnur Ddot wrote:

Originally posted by Hosydi Hosydi wrote:

It was evident that ELP had lost its inventiveness after Brain Salad Surgery and a tiring tour. They chose to have a double LP with each member contributing a side and the last side being a collaborative effort, instead of a one-disc album where they perform as a group. And the result of such a decision is probably the most terrible double-LP album in the history of the genre. Only Lake's material has some lovely moments as well as parts with him on the vocals on Pirates.

Love Beach, despite its awful sleeve design, is a masterpiece album in comparison with Works.


Only Lake's material? What about Piano Concerto No. 1? It's a genuinely good avant-garde, psychedelic, neo-classical song. It's on par with The Nice live records such as Five Bridges. Yes, it is messy, but isn't that the point of this kind of music?

In his early musical days, Keith Emerson refused his music teacher's suggestion for him to study classical music in London because young Emerson had little interest in classical music at the time and chose jazz piano. With the popularity of progressive rock, however, Keith Emerson was recognized as a very talented keyboard player who often fuses rock and classical music sounds, and as a first-class entertainer, gifted for extroverted and theatrical performances—firstly in The Nice and then in the trio Emerson, Lake & Palmer—he became a superstar in the 70s, perhaps one of the most iconic that ever existed in rock music, and such fame may have been the reason Keith Emerson developed an egomaniacal aspiration to be recognized as a serious classical music composer as well, and that ambition led him to create Piano Concerto No. 1. But this grand ambition has exceeded his writing skills in the classical genre. The Piano Concerto No. 1 is shallow and lacks refinement and sounds mechanical. Although the idea was to produce something substantial, the execution fell short of the expectations one has with classical music.

For those who frequently engage with classical music and are well-acquainted with the compositions of renowned composers, the initial two movements of Keith Emerson's Piano Concerto No. 1 may come across as lacking originality and exhibiting a formulaic structure. These movements do not have the richness or emotional depth of more typical concertos from the classical masters. The excessive use of standard forms and tropes dilutes the overall impact of the piece, rendering it less memorable than other pieces in the genre. Although the third movement in Emerson's concerto is more lively, it is also much different from the first two movements, and that inconsistency may disturb the listener in attempting to see cohesion within the work as a whole. A perfect concerto has to have stylistic coherence of some variety throughout its multiple movements, something that Piano Concerto No. 1 does not possess. 
Compared to piano concertos by renowned composers, such as those Keith Emerson aspired to be like, it lacks content.



Thanks for your explanation. I do think though that the Brahms comparison is a bit out of place. It is much closer to Stravinski at core. I think the messiness is a feature, not a bug. You are in for a crazy psychedelic ride, and you expect an epic classic tune. ELP has always been more avant-garde jazzy-esque or blue-esque than traditional European music.

Edited by Nergdnur Ddot - March 01 2025 at 10:22
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
We don't need to compare it to Brahms. That is plainly ridiculous.

Hi,

I have no issues with the comparison, except one ... it is an attempt to make fun of Keith's work and not take it seriously.

The same goes for TARKUS in the hands of Rachel Flowers ... a beautiful Piano Concerto, but none of us here will ever wish to raise the level of things beyond a stupid "song" ... and downplay the value of our generation's talents ... comparing it to Brahms? What's the point? Modern music is stupid and not worthy of the name?

I would think that person is not listening to music at all, and has to create comparisons to point out his/her taste in music is far better than Keith's.

Oh well ... subjectivity is alive and well on PA, specially when it is ridiculous and not exactly well founded in music directions and understanding ... so music has not changed since Brahms, and everyone else is crap! Had to happen on PA for sure! Wink
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Like many such albums, Works 1 is a good album that could have been a great album distilled down to one record. In fact, I would go far as to say one could distill Works 1 and Works 2 into one album and have a masterpiece.

Side One
"C'est la Vie"
"Hallowed Be Thy Name"
"L.A. Nights"
"Nobody Loves You Like I Do"
"Maple Leaf Rag"

Side Two
"Tiger in the Spotlight"
"The Enemy God Dances with the Black Spirits" 
"I Believe in Father Christmas"
"Fanfare for the Common Man"

Stripped of bloat and pretension, focusing on songwriting yet still highlighting each member, the album could perhaps have been ELP's most popular. It would be fun (and the great addition of Joe Walsh on "L.A. Nights" is the very definition of fun). It certainly would have staved off ELP's eventual decline and stagnation, and might have even changed the pervading critical view of the band as prog dinosaurs.


Edited by The Dark Elf - March 01 2025 at 10:20
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Emerson was one of that band of keyboard plays who were inspired by the classics and were also aspiring composers, Along with Rod Argent, Rick Wakeman, and Jon Lord.

In the case of the bands Argent and ELP there was also the rivalry/conflict/contrast between the composer and the songwriter - i.e. Emerson-Lake and Argent-Ballard.


also Jobson - Wetton in UK?


Ah yes, and Monkman of course was another classically trained keyboardist / composer often in conflict with his other band members, notably leaving both Curved Air and Sky to move on... whether it was due to conflicting personalities I don't know.

Edited by Floydoid - March 01 2025 at 04:32
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I love Aerie Fairie Nonsense most by The Enid. Yep RJG is one of a kind could even upstage Emerson with his antics when covering Hendrix at one famous festival back in the day!
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Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

Emerson was one of that band of keyboard plays who were inspired by the classics and were also aspiring composers, Along with Rod Argent, Rick Wakeman, and Jon Lord.

In the case of the bands Argent and ELP there was also the rivalry/conflict/contrast between the composer and the songwriter - i.e. Emerson-Lake and Argent-Ballard.

also Jobson - Wetton in UK?
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Another big shout-out for Robert John Godfrey - The Professor of Prog. Smile

 4 stars 1974: Robert John Godfrey - Fall of Hyperion - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_TaS3ukydpKggplszMt_cWZOgljkSwwE
 4 stars 1986: Robert John Godfrey - The Music of William Arkle - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI4vnCiJMsU
 3 stars 1987: Godfrey & Stewart - Joined by the Heart - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_TaS3ukydpIgt2EC_GDSJa2SuFt3Cpql
 5 stars 2013: Robert John Godfrey - The Art of Melody - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_TaS3ukydpL0_Fd5d0vkqk5Fvy88_idi

ROBERT JOHN GODFREY        He may have the appearance of a college professor with his long beard and studious expression, but Robert John Godfrey is the main driving force behind THE ENID, the Symphonic Prog band that's been around now for well over 40 years. Although this album, "Fall of Hyperion" (1974), is billed as a Robert John Godfrey solo album, it's really an album by The Enid in all but name, and presumably, that's why this album is included at the beginning of The Enid albums roster on Prog Archives. Most importantly though, this album SOUNDS like The Enid, with all of the symphonic pomp and ceremony you might expect from such a distinguished Prog-meister as "Professor Godfrey". His first album release as The Enid, "In the Region of the Summer Stars"was released two years later in 1976, followed swiftly by the humorously-titled "Aerie Faerie Nonsense" album in 1977. This solo album "Fall of Hyperion" features vocals, although the first four albums by The Enid proper were all orchestral pieces with no lyrics. It wasn't until the release of the band's fifth album, "Something Wicked This Way Comes" in 1983, that lyrics were featured for the first time. Robert John Godfrey worked with Barclay James Harvest in the early 1970's before deciding to go solo. Godfrey and The Enid have 20 studio albums to their credit, and despite him being diagnosed with Alzheimer's Disease in 2013, The Enid still continues to this day with many changes of line-up along the way. Although Robert John Godfrey has had to retire from touring due to his illness, he IS The Enid, because without keyboard maestro Godfrey ever- present at the helm, the band would never have existed.

The album opens in grand symphonic style with "The Raven". This anthemic piece of music is so extravagantly ostentatious in in all of its glorious pomp and splendour, that you may feel the patriotic urge to stand up and give a rousing rendition of "Land of Hope and Glory", or maybe the "Star Spangled Banner" if you're an American. Yes, it really IS that anthemic. It's booming, it's bombastic, and it's fantastic! You really have to hear it to believe it. This grand stentorian, orchestral symphony would have been equally at home as a magnificent finale to the album. And so, how do you follow up such a marvellous 9-minute album opener? You follow it with "Mountain", a 7-minute-long, energetic and euphonic piece of music with classical glissandos galore. Even classical music buffs couldn't fail to be impressed by this flawless fugue. This theatrical and emotionally uplifting music is like Renaissance with knobs on, where the dynamic and dramatic classical influences are even more in evidence. This is masterful Symphonic Prog taken to even more powerful extremes of classical greatness. Sailing onwards now on a patriotic wave of glory, comes the 6-minute "Water Song". You can expect to hear a profusion of grand- sounding keyboard runs on the piano with the ever-present full orchestra there in all of their magnificent power and glory.

Side Two opens with "Isault", an emotional powerful song with all of the grand theatrics of a BBC costume drama. It's grandiose and spectacular and just what we've come to expect by now from such an accomplished keyboard maestro as "Professor Godfrey". And now we come to "The Daemon of the World, a 15-minute long 6-piece suite to round off the album in grand style. Listen in awe and be prepared to be swept away by the magnificent grandstanding on display here in this powerful symphonic opus. It's melodious and triumphal with constant changes of tempo, staccato breaks, and sparkling fast and slow keyboard runs. This marvellous finale is sure to delight fans of The Enid and the whole Symphonic Prog genre generally. There's even the stentorian sound of a pipe organ thrown in for good measure. What more could you ask for!?

A gloriously powerful album of passionate majestic anthems that's guaranteed to astound and delight fans of classically- inspired Symphonic Prog. This album might be described as overblown and pretentious (just like this review) by those who aren't in the know, but to prog aficionados, this is prog heaven! Let Robert John Godfrey carry you away to a Land of Hope and Glory in this unashamedly pompous and sonorous extravaganza. It's an absolute must-have album for connoisseurs and collectors of classic British Symphonic Prog.




Edited by Psychedelic Paul - March 01 2025 at 02:40
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