"Selling Out"

Rush, a classic prog band, has had a streak of 30+ years with gold and platinum records.  Genesis had it for almost 20 years.  Yes were incredibly commercially successful for nigh on 2 decades.  ELP dominated the 70's with a string of sold-out tours and best-selling records.

I really don't think that there is anybody in the world who listens to the Jonas Brothers and Riverside.

I mean, I strongly believe that most people are more eclectic and open-minded than people here like to pretend because pretending so makes us feel special. But that has to be for Christmas. And I do agree that some forms of prog are popular among certain non-prog crowds, particularly post-rock and metal.

nahnite wrote: Rush, a classic prog band, has had a streak of 30+ years with gold and platinum records.  Genesis had it for almost 20 years.  Yes were incredibly commercially successful for nigh on 2 decades.  ELP dominated the 70's with a string of sold-out tours and best-selling records. Now, even bands who were at one time thought of as "inacessible" are scaling the charts.  Dream Theater's latest disc reached the top 10 in the States.  Last year, Opeth reached the top 20, and Porcupine Tree followed them this year into the top 20 as well.  Hell; I was in the store a few days ago, and the guy ahead of me had Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Riverside & DT in his hand.   Is this considered "selling out"?  Are we on the verge of our bands becoming bland and watered-down?  Or is it simply a zeitgeist; are people for whom prog is not the norm getting more and more into prog?   My take on it is this: I think it's simply becoming more commonplace to listen to more challenging music.  I feel that certain parts of the populace are getting fed up with hearing about Britney and Jessica all the damn time, and are starting to explore other parts of the musical world.   What's your take on it?

Evolver wrote: Becoming popular isn't selling out.  Compromising musical values in order to become popular is selling out. See Love Beach, Giant For A Day, anything Genesis did after And Then There Were Three, for examples.  Rush never were completely prog.  What they have done over the years has been completely consistant with their musical vision all along.

Well said.

Henry Plainview wrote: I mean, I strongly believe that most people are more eclectic and open-minded than people here like to pretend because pretending so makes us feel special. But that has to be for Christmas. And I do agree that some forms of prog are popular among certain non-prog crowds, particularly post-rock and metal.

Agreed. It is perhaps the metallic genres of prog that are most palatable to non-prog consumers. The latter may find the compond meters and harmonic territory alien to their expectations at times but the surface 'attitude' and 'aggression' they can relate to and recognise 'straight out the box'.

In many ways, the metal prog genres could provide a gateway into other realms of prog for the uninitiated. Opeth appear to have been particularly successful in this regard. Possible flaw: it's the lions who would be teaching the lion tamers.

continuing from above, a lot of metal has always been 'uncool' to like (asside from most kerrang bands). therefore it did not have to conform to 'popular' compromises, and therefore underground metal was allowed to experiment and include prog elemants

ExittheLemming wrote: Henry Plainview wrote: I mean, I strongly believe that most people are more eclectic and open-minded than people here like to pretend because pretending so makes us feel special. But that has to be for Christmas. And I do agree that some forms of prog are popular among certain non-prog crowds, particularly post-rock and metal. Agreed. It is perhaps the metallic genres of prog that are most palatable to non-prog consumers. The latter may find the compond meters and harmonic territory alien to their expectations at times but the surface 'attitude' and 'aggression' they can relate to and recognise 'straight out the box'. In many ways, the metal prog genres could provide a gateway into other realms of prog for the uninitiated. Opeth appear to have been particularly successful in this regard. Possible flaw: it's the lions who would be teaching the lion tamers.

In my expression it's the exact opposite... most progressive metal bands are much more popular with people who mostly listen to progressive rock than with people who mostly listen to metal. Even then, it's completely different prog metal bands that are popular in prog rock circles than in metal circles - those who mostly listen to prog rock listen to prog metal bands that are more prog than metal (Ayreon, Dream Theater, Isis, Mastodon, Protest the Hero, Threshold). Those who mostly listen to metal listen to - surprise, surprise - prog metal that's more metal than prog (Death, Fates Warning, Gorguts, Manticora, Mekong Delta, Ulcerate)... is that what you meant with "the lions taming the lion tamers"?

Okay, there are some bands in the overlap in that they appeal to both prog fans and metal fans (e. g. Agalloch, Atheist, Behold the Arctopus, Queensrÿche and to some extent Opeth) but to my knowledge they're in the minority.

As for "selling out", I think that only really applies when there's been a change in style that's presumed to be the cause of sudden mainstream acceptance and alienates a lot of a band's old fanbase. Basically, it's a shift in intended audience from a niche audience to the mainstream. I guess the trick is to change style without losing your original audience...


Edited by Toaster Mantis - December 26 2009 at 05:28

If you don't sell records, how do you make enough money to live and finance the recording of more albums?

Having lived through the halcyon years of the 70s when the album charts (and at times, the singles charts) were dominated by prog bands, I see no problem with popularity, so long as it's not achieved at the expense of the quality of the music.

Genesis, ELP and, to a lesser extent, Yes did sell out in the late 70s/early 80s because they deliberately compromised their music to achieve greater commercial success. Sadly, the other day I mentioned that I was a Genesis fan to a colleague and he said he was as well; turned out he had everything from Abacab to Calling all Stations but had never heard anything from Trespass to Lamb Lies Down and didn't even know that Peter Gabriel had ever been in the band. We hadn't a lot in common!

Dean wrote: While that may be the situation now,  don't think that was how it was 5, 10 or 15 years ago when the people who listened to most (if not all) of those bands were predominately Metal fans and many only they picked up on Prog as a result.   From my own perspective I first listened to them back then it was because they were metal bands.