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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 14:25
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Well, my point is that Moonmadness and most certainly Rain Dances have their fair amount of jazz rock leanings added to the music.


And this after our National Health discussion....

Jeez, Pablo, what doesn't sound like jazz-rock to you?  Next thing you'll tell me about Holdsworth-esque licks in Selena Gomez's latest single.  Wink
 
Genesis, Yes, ELP, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, The Who, The Beatles, Dire Straits, The Decemberists, Atomic Rooster, Rush, Harmonium, Kansas, Marillion, Pendragon, Shakti, Ashra, Tangerine Dream. All those bands don't sound like jazz rock at all.Big smile
 
When I say sound I'm not classifying the band/album as pure jazz rock, just stating a pretty obvious imo influence/sound, which in the case of Moonmadness, Rain Dances and National Health's s/t, it is jazz rock.
 
Mind you that sounding like Jazz Rock doesn't mean that it has to sound to Return to Forever and Mahavishnu Orchestra.
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 14:47
Have to say that Canterbury is one of the fuzziest genres we have here on PA. I was half way through a Gilgamesh review before I realised this band weren't deemed straight up Jazz Rock/Fusion.
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Points: 2318 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 14:55
HEY!!! now that you guys  are having a pretty large argument about the Canterbury scene.
I am almost done with my Collage dedicated to the Canterbury's bands..I'll keep you guys posted!! and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


Edited by darksideof - March 11 2010 at 14:57
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:12
Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL


Edited by micky - March 11 2010 at 16:13
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:25
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 
If Richard Sinclair wouldn't have joined Camel, I would still think that Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene.
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Points: 2318 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:35
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 I guess you are right perhaps!!!
Look at  Bruford band when he first started he had The Legendary Dave Stewart on keys! ! The man that played some of the best Canterbury bands: National health, Egg, Khan, harfield and The North! Then he became part of the Bruford Fusion band. Does that mean that Bruford was Canterbury band? mmmmmm Confusedjeeeee!!!!!LOLLOLLOLLOL
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:36
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 
If Richard Sinclair wouldn't have joined Camel, I would still think that Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene.


and that is...  what sound?   The think is Pablo.. and sure this has mentioned in the previous pages.  There is NO Canterbury sound.. that is what makes it one of the odder (though still completely valid) subgenres here.  It is by association... it was a 'scene'  Musically Camel.. and a 100 other groups may sound like this group.. or that one.. which are considered by all to be part of the Canterbury scene.   Camel being considered 'Canterbury' is a valid notion... but only because of Sinclair.  Which considering exactly what the Canterbury sub-genre is... not a musical one.. but a historical/association based one.  Is quite a weighty case. 
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:39
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 
If Richard Sinclair wouldn't have joined Camel, I would still think that Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene.


and that is...  what sound?   The think is Pablo.. and sure this has mentioned in the previous pages.  There is NO Canterbury sound.. that is what makes it one of the odder (though still completely valid) subgenres here.  It is by association... it was a 'scene'  Musically Camel.. and a 100 other groups may sound like this group.. or that one.. which are considered by all to be part of the Canterbury scene.   Camel being considered 'Canterbury' is a valid notion... but only because of Sinclair.  Which considering exactly what the Canterbury sub-genre is... not a musical one.. but a historical/association based one.  Is quite a weighty case. 
 
Micky, please read what I said:
 
"Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene. " What I mean is that Camel's debut has similarities to bands from the Canterbury Scene.
 
Just in case you didn't read some of the previous posts, I'm not saying that Camel belongs to the Canterbury Scene.
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Points: 2318 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:41
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 
If Richard Sinclair wouldn't have joined Camel, I would still think that Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene.


and that is...  what sound?   The think is Pablo.. and sure this has mentioned in the previous pages.  There is NO Canterbury sound.. that is what makes it one of the odder (though still completely valid) subgenres here.  It is by association... it was a 'scene'  Musically Camel.. and a 100 other groups may sound like this group.. or that one.. which are considered by all to be part of the Canterbury scene.   Camel being considered 'Canterbury' is a valid notion... but only because of Sinclair.  Which considering exactly what the Canterbury sub-genre is... not a musical one.. but a historical/association based one.  Is quite a weighty case. 
good point!Clap
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:42
Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 I guess you are right perhaps!!!
Look at  Bruford band when he first started he had The Legendary Dave Stewart on keys! ! The man that played some of the best Canterbury bands: National health, Egg, Khan, harfield and The North! Then he became part of the Bruford Fusion band. Does that mean that Bruford was Canterbury band? mmmmmm Confusedjeeeee!!!!!LOLLOLLOLLOL


hahahha...  gotta love trying to pound square groups into round holes.  I could swear that Bruford has been listed on some sites as Canterbury LOL
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 16:51
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

and Yes Camel will be included it for you info LiquidEternity according to my researches about the Prog sub-genre Camel were Canterbury!Tongue


hah...don't forget Yes as well  they had that Canterbury jazzy thing going on as well and as much connection musically  as Camel did to Canterbury.  Seriously.. if Sinclair never joined Camel this would probably have never been thought of.  Once the seed is planted... you can take musical minutia and make a case for most any group x fitting in subgenre Y since these groups threw the kitchen sink into their music.  Take the Yes-men...   they'd fit just as well in Crossover as Symphonic (and actually is the most accurate place for them to be honest)...  and had consistency more jazz influences directly in their music than pure 'symphonic' moments.  At least till Bruford jumped ship... but since we are picking minutia and individual albums here...   Yes's first 4 should be enough to get them in Canterbury...  Tales was the only real quasi-symphonic they had. 

Think it over at least LOL
 
If Richard Sinclair wouldn't have joined Camel, I would still think that Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene.


and that is...  what sound?   The think is Pablo.. and sure this has mentioned in the previous pages.  There is NO Canterbury sound.. that is what makes it one of the odder (though still completely valid) subgenres here.  It is by association... it was a 'scene'  Musically Camel.. and a 100 other groups may sound like this group.. or that one.. which are considered by all to be part of the Canterbury scene.   Camel being considered 'Canterbury' is a valid notion... but only because of Sinclair.  Which considering exactly what the Canterbury sub-genre is... not a musical one.. but a historical/association based one.  Is quite a weighty case. 
 
Micky, please read what I said:
 
"Camel have some similarity to the Canterbury Scene. " What I mean is that Camel's debut has similarities to bands from the Canterbury Scene.
 
Just in case you didn't read some of the previous posts, I'm not saying that Camel belongs to the Canterbury Scene.


I'm not either...   I could honestly care less where they are.  And as I posted earlier... I don't see them moving even if we all thought they should move.

and yes.. I read your post.  As I said....  100's of bands from across the spectrum have a sound or albums that sound similar to a paricular band in the Canterbury scene. Are any of those groups considered Canterbury.. nope... the reason Camel has a case... or in some people's view ARE Canterbury is simply because of who played in various lineups of Camel.  My post went on to say why that is not technically wrong.  It isn't like trying to argue a band is symphonic, that is only vaguely symphonic, because they have some association with a leading member of a legendary symphonic group.  Symphonic is a musical subgenre... and one Camel fits well.   Canterbury is a historical/association one...with all kinds of groups that sound very little alike.  From poppy.. to quasi-sympho.. to hard core jazzers.. to pure T stoners hahah. 
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2010 at 17:12
though.. for sh*ts and grins...   it can be said that symphonic is not a purely musical a sub-genre as we might think.   It could be called... classic prog. Not as much a musical sub-genre but one of  association...  not by members... but simply being the leading lights of 'classic' prog.   Look at Yes...  whose whole musical foundation was .. supercharged and technical pop music. The band whose supposed symphonic 'mastermind' quit the band and did not return until the band started to write songs again.. .songs. Not symphonic works of prog.  That was what Yes was about.. and why they slammed into the 80's with no problem...  90125 was not an aberration... but merely a progression of where they had always gone.  In fact... it can be argued.. once they perfected long form prog-pop songs on CttE, they ... they took another decade before they perfected short form prog-pop.   So perfect that people ate the album up... brought legions of new fans... old fans loved it recognizing what they were doing.   Unlike Genesis that alienated their early fan base with their brand of pop music.. Yes stayed true to their roots... and kept old fans...and brought scores of new ones in.  

  
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Points: 2318 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2010 at 08:25

You know I took my time and read many of you guys responds to this subject and let me tell you I got mad confused ConfusedLOL.....! Now I really don't know what makes a band to be Canterbury. I am guessing that the musicians that went to school there or actually lived in the city around the 60's or 70's? are the true Canterbury bands? Confused I don't know!!LOL

 This make a bit of a sense Wikipedia:
The Canterbury scene (or Canterbury sound) is a term used to loosely describe the group of progressive rock, avant-garde and jazz musicians, many of whom were based around the city of Canterbury, Kent, England during the late 1960s and early 1970s. Many prominent British avant-garde or fusion musicians began their career in Canterbury bands, such as Hugh Hopper, Steve Hillage, Dave Stewart, Robert Wyatt, Kevin Ayers, Daevid Allen, Mike Ratledge, Fred Frith, and Peter Blegvad.[1][2] Over the years, with band membership changes and new bands evolving, the term has been used to describe a musical style or subgenre, rather than a regional group of musicians.
 SO camel weren't....Confused
 


Edited by darksideof - March 12 2010 at 08:26
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Points: 366 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2010 at 10:01
Well, Canterbury scene is CLEARLY here because of the sound or some other musical similarities, not for some bloody people/scene relations. What are those elements of Canterbury Scene, it's a bit harder to discuss, but I'm sure people could think many of them. I'm not going to list them here.

Sometimes there's much similarities with some other jazz rock/fusion, RIO and even Zeuhl, so the classification can be hard to do, but that doesn't matter.

But yes, there's different genre's inside Canterbury scene, likewise inside progressive rock...

PS about Yes.. not to crossover but to eclectic prog.

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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2010 at 14:20
Originally posted by darksideof darksideof wrote:

You know I took my time and read many of you guys responds to this subject and let me tell you I got mad confused ConfusedLOL.....! Now I really don't know what makes a band to be Canterbury. I am guessing that the musicians that went to school there or actually lived in the city around the 60's or 70's? are the true Canterbury bands? Confused I don't know!!LOL

 This make a bit of a sense Wikipedia:
The Canterbury scene (or Canterbury sound) is a term used to loosely describe the group of progressive rock, avant-garde and jazz musicians, many of whom were based around the city of Canterbury, Kent, England during the late 1960s and early 1970s. Many prominent British avant-garde or fusion musicians began their career in Canterbury bands, such as Hugh Hopper, Steve Hillage, Dave Stewart, Robert Wyatt, Kevin Ayers, Daevid Allen, Mike Ratledge, Fred Frith, and Peter Blegvad.[1][2] Over the years, with band membership changes and new bands evolving, the term has been used to describe a musical style or subgenre, rather than a regional group of musicians.
 SO camel weren't....Confused
 


no they probably  were not... however.. yes they might be.

Isn't the beauty of it...   in the end it really doesn't matter one iota does it LOL

the problem with wiki though...   'the term has been used to describe a musical style'

what musical style?  If anyone can answer that...  and cover all the major bands of Canterbury.... they should be shot up the ladder to admin .. made chief admin...given a forum guru tag.... and promoted to M@X's #1 drinking buddy.
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Points: 2318 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2010 at 16:41
Well back to the argument!
My collage is done!!! TAKE A LOOK! Do all  these bands were part of the great scene?
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