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Dean 
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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 Posted: February 11 2013 at 12:48 |
 timothy leary wrote:
As for the abuse of random raters, of course i was aware of it and if you search through past threads i quite often reported such abuse to no avail. |
Considering the number of hours I spent deleting 100's of thousands of bogus ratings and blocking and suspending dozens of fake user accounts, plus the time analysing the average votes and ratings of several 2013 albums looking for evidence of abuse, plus the time and effort I expended PMing people whose voting patterns had caused concern just to ensure I didn't inadvertantly delete the ratings of a whole bunch of people who just happened to live in the same house sharing the same broadband account, I must repectfully ask how much "avail" is worth these days. 
And inconclusion of all that I think it is actually a glorious waste of time, both of mine (every sodding year for the past four sodding years), and of the damn irresponsible and selfish cu- prats who abuse the rating system, but because some people think it is important and because some people do raise legitimate concerns I am duty bound to investigate. Next year I may not bother at all.
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What?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 12:51 |
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I don't blame you for being tired of it all. When I said to no avail I meant it seems neverending.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 13:27 |
timothy leary wrote:
sleeper wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
sleeper wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
Well of course there is no top 50 albums it is the top 100 albums and i think if you look you will find Discipline somewhere around 46th or so. I was not referring to Opeths album being on the top 100 of all time. I still stand by my opinion that the top 100 albums of the year is a more accurate reference tool than is the collaborators poll. Since it is only an opinion you should treat it as such. |
I disagree. If by accurate you mean "catters to the average fan who likes mostly Neo, Symphonic and vanilla Prog Metal" then yes, your probably right. However, have you taken a good look at the tastes of the people we have as collabs on this site? The strength of this list is that it comes from a very diverse selection of people, those whose tastes focus on metal, those on Avant/RIO/Zeul, thos eon Neo and Symphonic etc, etc. If an album scores highly, it's because it appeals to a wide range of people and best yet, as a member of this site, I know these people, or at least have been here long enough to get an understanding of the kind of music most of them like where as with the top 100 lists most of those ratings come from random people I know nothing about and may in fact have little to no knowledge of prog or focus on a very small section of it. Given that, I'll trust the collab end of year lists far more (except when it comes to Steven Wilson, I have an allergic reaction to his music ), especially with the last couple of years seeing a lot of neo and symphonic albums receiving a lot of 5 star ratings.
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You are certainly welcome to trust whichever poll you want. I am sure collaborators have not heard the 100 albums of the year in its entirety. Random people have no agenda. A lot of collaborators belong to teams having to do with one sub genre of prog. Maybe you are right, time will tell if collaborators are on the money with their choices. |
So what does being part of a team have to do with anything? Even as part of the Prog Metal Team I voted for other, none metal albums as well, the collabs are unpaid volanteers who have demonstrated a decent knowledge of prog either in general or in a certain genre. There's no conspiracie(s) going on here, I can assure you.
As for your first two sentancies. A couple of the collabs might have (I'm thinking Windhawk and Coner particularly) but most wont have mostly because there will always be albums that won't appeal to certain people, but I'd bet the "average" collab has heard as much of that list as the "average" prog fan. As for random people having no agenda, did you not see the blatent and offensive level of rating manipulation Perhaps supporters where getting involved in last Autumn?
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I never said collaborators are not competent, nor did I say the collaborators poll is without importance. What I did say is for myself the top 100 albums of the year has more weight than the collaborators poll. As for the abuse of random raters, of course i was aware of it and if you search through past threads i quite often reported such abuse to no avail. |
But you did indirectly accuse us of having an agenda, which was the main point of my last post.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 13:35 |
timothy leary wrote:
I don't blame you for being tired of it all. When I said to no avail I meant it seems neverending. |
That's not what you wrote, but never mind. It is the rating abuse that is futile not the reporting and deleting of those ratings. Our weighting system negates the need to delete these pesky bogus ratings - they are an irritation but they mean practically nothing. John's album was unusual in that it has so few actual reviews - now it has 5 reviews the weighting system makes those equivalent to 70 ratings-only scores (which by some amusing coincidence is exactly the number of ratings-only it has). When you consider that the abusive ratings account for a small fraction of the 70 ratings-only votes then the reviews far out-weigh any effect these puerile little pillocks think they can achieve, even with multiple accounts and retaliation ratings.
Here is the real effect of rating abuse and its removal on a album's average rating (the blue line is the average rating over time with the bogus ratings included, and the red is with them removed):
(This is very typical - all albums look like this - they take time to settle on their "true" value - generally once an album has more than 30 ratings, with a good number of written reviews then the average rating isn't going to change a great deal)
Now when you consider that a similar plot can be made of every album in the database and they would all show similar trending and faking then it is clear to see that for the rating abuser it's a waste of their time - deleting them is a waste of my time. Seriously. No kidding.
Edited by Dean - February 11 2013 at 18:22
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What?
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 14:22 |
sleeper wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
sleeper wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
sleeper wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
Well of course there is no top 50 albums it is the top 100 albums and i think if you look you will find Discipline somewhere around 46th or so. I was not referring to Opeths album being on the top 100 of all time. I still stand by my opinion that the top 100 albums of the year is a more accurate reference tool than is the collaborators poll. Since it is only an opinion you should treat it as such. |
I disagree. If by accurate you mean "catters to the average fan who likes mostly Neo, Symphonic and vanilla Prog Metal" then yes, your probably right. However, have you taken a good look at the tastes of the people we have as collabs on this site? The strength of this list is that it comes from a very diverse selection of people, those whose tastes focus on metal, those on Avant/RIO/Zeul, thos eon Neo and Symphonic etc, etc. If an album scores highly, it's because it appeals to a wide range of people and best yet, as a member of this site, I know these people, or at least have been here long enough to get an understanding of the kind of music most of them like where as with the top 100 lists most of those ratings come from random people I know nothing about and may in fact have little to no knowledge of prog or focus on a very small section of it. Given that, I'll trust the collab end of year lists far more (except when it comes to Steven Wilson, I have an allergic reaction to his music), especially with the last couple of years seeing a lot of neo and symphonic albums receiving a lot of 5 star ratings.
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You are certainly welcome to trust whichever poll you want. I am sure collaborators have not heard the 100 albums of the year in its entirety. Random people have no agenda. A lot of collaborators belong to teams having to do with one sub genre of prog. Maybe you are right, time will tell if collaborators are on the money with their choices. |
So what does being part of a team have to do with anything? Even as part of the Prog Metal Team I voted for other, none metal albums as well, the collabs are unpaid volanteers who have demonstrated a decent knowledge of prog either in general or in a certain genre. There's no conspiracie(s) going on here, I can assure you.
As for your first two sentancies. A couple of the collabs might have (I'm thinking Windhawk and Coner particularly) but most wont have mostly because there will always be albums that won't appeal to certain people, but I'd bet the "average" collab has heard as much of that list as the "average" prog fan. As for random people having no agenda, did you not see the blatent and offensive level of rating manipulation Perhaps supporters where getting involved in last Autumn?
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I never said collaborators are not competent, nor did I say the collaborators poll is without importance. What I did say is for myself the top 100 albums of the year has more weight than the collaborators poll. As for the abuse of random raters, of course i was aware of it and if you search through past threads i quite often reported such abuse to no avail. |
But you did indirectly accuse us of having an agenda, which was the main point of my last post.
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when i directly accuse collaborators of having an "agenda" then get back to me.
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 14:47 |
^Until then, maybe being a bit more careful with the wording of your posts can avoid the quote pyramids.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Any Colour You Like
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 15 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 12294
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 14:49 |
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E-Rating: Serious business.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
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Posted: February 11 2013 at 16:18 |
sleeper wrote:
^Until then, maybe being a bit more careful with the wording of your posts can avoid the quote pyramids.
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yes sir
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colorofmoney91
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 16 2008
Location: Biosphere
Status: Offline
Points: 22774
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Posted: February 18 2013 at 16:40 |
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Wow, this list is depressing.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14258
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Posted: March 28 2013 at 05:44 |
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I think the Collab lists are interesting and at least throw some light on some of the best albums of the year. they ar enot to be taken over seriously and should never be. they are simply a list of some of the better albums according to those who are into prog in a serious way. All collabs at least have some extensive knowledge and thats why i trust their judgement in these matters. The albums chosen in the top 10 per year are usually very reliable as to the best of the best albums per year.
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dennismoore
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
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Posted: April 07 2013 at 05:52 |
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Andy,
My sincere thanks for all the hard work that led to this list. This is a great resource & a huge benefit!
You rock dude!
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"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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CoolJimmi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2012
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 180
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Posted: May 18 2013 at 17:47 |
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Really happy to see Rush and the Mars Volta up there, two of my favorite bands. And Storm Corrosion, too, what an amazing collaboration!
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jemma
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 30 2013
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 5
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 07:01 |
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Great sharing, thanks
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Xonty
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 23 2013
Location: Cornwall
Status: Offline
Points: 1759
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Posted: August 29 2013 at 12:13 |
I loved Clockwork Angels, probably one of their best albums in my opinion (about 6th)
Amazed not to find Iamthemorning's debut "~" in the top 300...
Edited by Xonty - August 30 2013 at 03:43
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Altairius
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 14 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 187
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Posted: June 07 2014 at 23:21 |
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Echolyn - s/t
Banks of Eden
AttosecondO - Alphataurus
Whimsical Weather - Cirrus Bay
Speak - I and Thou
Not a great prog year imo
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Collaborators' Top Albums of 2012
