tangerine62 wrote: I've noticed that the believers (religious nutters) are creeping into this prog forum.......................only one question to ask? Why do you believe in a being that has never ever been seen? and that is a fact: no one has ever seen the so called god.

oh? how do you know? in fact this is exactly what mystics claim: that they have seen God. so how do you know they are wrong?

OPEN LETTER TO KANSAS SCHOOL BOARD

I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.

Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.

Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.

I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.

You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.

"But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Jesus) Mat 5:22

"You fools!" (Jesus) Luke 11:40
"You blind fools!" (Jesus) Mat 23:17
"How foolish you are" (Jesus) Luke 24:25

"But God said to him, 'You fool!' " (Jesus) Luke 12:20

"You foolish Galatians!" (St. Paul) Galatians 3:1
"You foolish man" James 2:20

(Also - Psalms 14:1 and again at 53:1 - you have to think me a fool because I have said in my heart that there is no God  - oops, both of us in hell now!)

Like a Monty Python sketch except these quotes are from The Bible.

A Christian wrote: "God did not create evil. Evil is simply the state where God is not present."

Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam

Believe what you want to believe, just don't shove your beliefs down people's throats, and don't meddle in the personal lives of others, with your beliefs.

That's all I have to say.

some people seem to be of the opinion that one can't believe in evolution AND in God (some fundamentalists in the bible belt, for example). I personally don't see a contradiction there. what a wonderfully clever idea evolution is! what better way is there to create a world?

I highly recommend the lecture of Raymond Smullyan's "Is God a Taoist?"; here a link to that wonderfully witty and funny dialogue between a mortal and God: http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm - http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm

Tony R wrote: Foolery In The Bible "But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Jesus) Mat 5:22 "You fools!" (Jesus) Luke 11:40 "You blind fools!" (Jesus) Mat 23:17 "How foolish you are" (Jesus) Luke 24:25 "But God said to him, 'You fool!' " (Jesus) Luke 12:20 "You foolish Galatians!" (St. Paul) Galatians 3:1 "You foolish man" James 2:20 (Also - Psalms 14:1 and again at 53:1 - you have to think me a fool because I have said in my heart that there is no God  - oops, both of us in hell now!) Like a Monty Python sketch except these quotes are from The Bible.

I have seen this argument before. It goes along with the judge not for you too will be judged passage in the Bible But in Christianity Jesus/God is the judge so those rules just don't apply to him.

Laurent wrote: Believe what you want to believe, just don't shove your beliefs down people's throats, and don't meddle in the personal lives of others, with your beliefs. That's all I have to say.

.....and to the topic creator,FAITH plays a huge part in most religions.

Faith:

-Confident belief in the truth,value,or trustworthiness of a person,idea,or thing.

-Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

-Loyalty to a person or thing,allegiance.

-The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and trusting acceptance of God's will.

-The body of dogma of a religion

-A set of principles or beliefs

BaldJean:

Actually, Darwin himself believed as you do.  Here is a quote from the "Summary and Recapitulation" of "The Origin of Species":

"Authors of the highest eminence seem to be fully satisfied with the view that each species has been independently created.  To my mind, it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed upon matter by the Creator that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes...There is grandeur in this view of life...having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one."  (Emphases mine.)

Thus, Darwin believed that the "laws of the universe" - including evolution - were "impressed upon matter" by God.  There is no other interpretation of his statement.

It is arguable that this makes Darwin the first proponent of intelligent design...

Peace.

tangerine62:

"Believers are creeping into this forum?"  No, we've been here all the time.  (I have personally been here for over two years: how long have you been here?)  As have many non-believers.  And new members are comprised of both believers and non-believers.  What bothers you is that we have dared to become increasingly confident in expressing our faith-based views in those threads in which they are relevant.

As for no one having ever "seen God," let me ask you something: Have you ever seen a neutrino?  Has anyone?  No, their existence is extrapolated from other scientific hypotheses.  Let me ask another: Have you ever seen the wind?  No, you have perhaps seen and felt the effects of the wind, but you have never seen the wind itself.

We who believe in God - whether Jewish, Christian, Muslim or other - believe that we have seen and felt "the effects" of God, just as all of us, believers and non-believers alike, have seen and felt the effects of the wind, but have never seen it.

Perhaps you need to use a better example.

Peace.

i don't understand the point of this thread.

Well I Guess It Would Be Nice
If i could touch your body
I know not everybody
Has got a body like you

But i've got to chink twice
Before i give my heart away
And i know all the games you play
Because i play them too

Oh but i
Need some rime off from that emotion
Time to pick my heart up off the floor
And when that love comes down
Without devotion
Well it takes a strong man baby
But i'm showing you the door

'Cause i gorra have faith....

Baby
I know you're asking me to stay
Say please, please, please, don't go away
You say i'm giving you the blues
Maybe
You mean every word you say
Can't help but think of yesterday
And another who tied me down to loverhoy rules-

Before this river
Becomes an ocean
Before you throw my heart back on the floor
Oh baby i reconsider
My foolish notion
Well i need someone to hold me
But i'll wait for something more

Yes i've got to have faith....

NetsNJFan wrote: Enough of this fighting between faithers and atheists Enough You are both wrong I am God!

Is your name Jon Anderson, then

stonebeard wrote: i don't understand the point of this thread.

To make squirrel.

cobb wrote: is that a food? or did you misspell quarrel?

Yes!

Goose said, "There's no point in using science to try and prove or disprove the existence of a higher being since science is within what the higher being (or lack of) created. It's like trying to break open a box with a crowbar that's already inside the box."

Absolutely brilliant! 

I also notice that tangerine - and all the other rabid atheists in the group - have chosen to ignore my post.  Could that be because they realize they cannot answer the question?  That all they can do is continue to resort to tired old atheist mantras, and simply repeat them over and over?

Ah well.  I had hoped for more stimulating discussion and debate, and not just a bunch of mealy fundamentalist atheists...()

Peace.

Tony R wrote: OPEN LETTER TO KANSAS SCHOOL BOARD I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design. Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him. It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith. Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease. I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t. You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature. In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence. Sincerely Yours, Tony R

...Very humorous.  However, I'm afraid I must disagree with your theory of creation.  All intelligent people know that the universe was created by the accidental coming together of chocolate and peanut butter, which caused the coming into existence of the great Reese, who then created the universe in order that there would be life to enjoy the deliciousness of the combination of chocolate and peanut butter.  This is known as the Reese Theory of Intelligent Design and there is much scientific evidence to back this up.

cobb:

I truly hope that no one is "intimidated" by the "admin group" title.  I am just another member when it comes to discussion and debate in the forums (unless I specifically state that I am speaking "officially").  Indeed, anyone who thinks I would "use" my position to stifle debate or otherwise "punish" a member has not read my posts on freedom of speech on the site.

So perhaps I should simply state it for the "rabble" (): In matters of general discussion, please feel free to ignore the "admin group" moniker that appears under my name, since it has no bearing on anything whatsoever.  Trust me, I can handle myself well enough in discussion and debate not to feel even the slightest twinge of a wish or need to "exert my authority" in any regard.  Indeed, as anyone who has been here for any length of time will tell you (and I say this not as self-aggrandizement, but as fact), I am without question the #1 champion of free speech on this site.  Yes, there are "guidelines," created and enforced by the admin group.  But those guidelines are minimal, and free speech and debate are strongly encouraged - no matter what your point of view.

Hope that clears that up...

Peace.

Velvetclown wrote: Well I hope there´s som intelligent life out there in space, cos It´s bugger all down here.

Well, not in Sweden in any case!

Velvetclown wrote: Well I hope there´s som intelligent life out there in space, cos It´s bugger all down here.

"The Galaxy song!!", superb.

God Song by Matching Mole; lyrics Robert Wyatt

What on Earth are you doing, God?
Is this some sort of joke you're playing?
Is it cause we didn't pray?
Well I can't see the point of the word without the action
Are you just hot air, breathing over us and over all?
Is it fun watching us all?
Where's your son? We want him again!

And next time you send your boy down here
Give him a wife and a sexy daughter
Someone we can understand
Who's got some ideas we can use, really relate to
We've all read your rules, tried them
Learnt them in school, then tried them
They're impossible rules, and you've made us look fools
Well done, God, but now please...

Don't hunt me down, for Heaven's sake!
You know that I'm only joking, aren't I?
Pardon me I'm very drunk!
But I know what I'm trying to say, and it's nearly night time
And we're still alone, waiting for something unknown, still waiting
So throw down a stone, or something!
Give us a sign, for Christ's sake!

 i started this thread to find out if there are many believers and what drives them to believe. I was brought up roman catholic ( a one way ticket out of religion if ever there was one), and throughout my education kept getting it thumped into me catholics were better than anyone else. I don't understand religion, i don't want to, there are too many worshipping the same thing. But none can agree on what that is. god does not exist for me hence the small g, and from what i know has never been proven to exist. Sketchy sightings from aeons ago written aeons after the event, makes dodgy grounds for stating that god existed. Anyway i don't believe nor ever will, so each to their own and as i've stated elsewhere in these forums, the only god plays keyboards.....Keith Emerson.

tangerine62 wrote: The bible is a nice story book.........but thats all.

• Bill Hick Revelations (1990's comedy routine)

Snow Dog:

...And a dyslexic atheist is someone who is certain there is no dog...

BaldJean:

From a college english teacher: "God is not a little old man with a beard in a nightshirt writing down your good deeds in a golden book."  Love that one!

tangerine:

The problem with your "big bang" vs. "7 days" position is the same mistake that both atheists and faith-based people make: that issues like this have two mutually exclusive positions that are hopelessly at odds and completely irreconcilable.

I (and many other devout Christians - and, I'm sure, many atheists) do not believe this to be the case.  Indeed, if you have read my posts in the ELP thread and here, you will know that it is because of my own initially atheist (or possibly agnostic) grounding in academics, rationality, empiricism, the scientific method, etc. that now, as a believer (and an evangelical at that!), I have, well, maybe not a "unique" perspective, but certainly a more "well-rounded" one than someone who was either raised in a faith-based home (and thus "indoctrinated" (a word I abhor) at an early age) - and who therefore may be "suspicious" of science or hostile to it - or someone who was raised in a rabidly atheist, rational household, who may therefore consider faith and God so much "hooey" or may be hostile toward it.

I am equally grounded in "both worlds": my knowledge of science, rationality, etc. is as deep as my knowledge of the Bible, Christianity, etc., and I continue to read both science- and other "rational"-based books and articles, and the Bible and faith-based books and articles.

This is why I find people like you and Arteum so maddening.  Not because you maintain an atheist stance - or are even hostile to faith and God.  Rather, it is because, for all your talk of logic, rationality, etc., you show absolutely no interest - even an intellectual interest - in the subject.  How rational or logical is that?

You, Arteum and others will accuse faith-based people of having "flawed brains," of not being able to "think freely," of being "stupid" or "irrational" or "scientific ignoramuses" or what have you.  Yet many Christians - possibly even most (though obviously not all) - have a far greater interest in, tolerance for, even knowledge of science, etc. than atheists like you have of faith, God, religion, whatever - again, even simply from an "intellectually curious" point of view.

The "Judeo-Christian construct" in which I believe has far more room for "secular" concepts and beliefs such as science, psychology, philosophy, etc. than your suuposedly "greater" world of logic and reason has for faith, God and religion.

It is the complete lack of intellectual curiosity coming from the atheists here that I find...illogical.

Finally, you are right (for the most part) about Roman Catholicism being a "one-way ticket out of" faith and God.  And I am truly sorry you were subjected to that, and that it affected you the way it obviously has.  However, your hostility is just as obviously an "over-reaction" and "over-compensation" that results from your anger and resentment.

I believe that, over time, the very intense level of your hostility will diminish - though it may never fully disappear.  And although it may be too much to hope that your hostility, anger and resentment will subside enough for you to reconsider your spiritual beliefs and path, as the saying goes, "God works in mysterious ways."  In this regard, although I know it will mean little or nothing to you (now), I will pray for you - since that is all I can offer you right now in the face of your hostility.

Peace.

BaldJean:

Thank you for your kind words.  Although I know something of the Gaia belief system, I admit to not being as knowledgeable about it as about other beliefs, including, among others, the Native American Great Spirit belief - with which I believe the Gaia belief has much in common - and the Australian aboriginal Dreamtime belief.

Since I am always interested in broadening my knowledge of spiritual belief systems, perhaps you could recommend one or two books that would give me a fairly solid, if basic, grounding in your belief system.  I would really appreciate that.

Peace!

BaldJean wrote: well said, maani. I just want to add that to believe in a deity does by no means necessarily mean it is the "Judeo-Christian" deity; I myself am of a so-called "pagan" religion that worships Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth (and even a High Priestess of it). of course "Gaia" is just a name; the most important difference of the religion I am a member of to the Judeo-Christian religions is that being aware of nature ("Mother Earth") is an essential part of it. but this makes my religion in no way "better" than any other religion; it is just my preferred choice of belief

"my preferred choice of belief"

Religion as fashion and lifestyle choice BJ?

I dont suppose you want to elaborate on why you choose to worship the Ancient Goddess Of The Earth? I have to make the observation that it does seem rather conveniently aligned with your sexuality.Are your hormones not interfering with your braincells?

BaldFriede wrote: Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame. - Albert Einstein

Albert's own faith messed his theories!  He added something to his theory of relativity, that would make the universe stable, as expaning universe didn't match his own view of the world. He later shamingly removed it.

Stephen Hawking's crusade towards god is silly also. But he has suffered so much pain in his life, that it's easy to understand why he doesn't believe in all-loving god.

I think it would be wisest to keep science and religion separated, as science can't answer what was before our universe, so there's allways room for the creator. Religion and science clash, when religious authorities start to tell their followers, what kind is the physical world we're living in. Our world can be measured following the rules of scientific method, and the results of proper research are fact. This leads to the result, that the words in sacred pergaments claiming anything other are wrong.

James Lee wrote: ...most atheists reject the possibility of god's existence out of hand but accept buttloads of hearsay when it comes to scientific theories

You are right. Theories should be treated as theories. One shouldn't start to believe in them, until they are scientifically proven true completely. But I think it's just too tempting to many...

Eetu Pellonpää wrote: Stephen Hawking's crusade towards god is silly also. But he has suffered so much pain in his life, that it's easy to understand why he doesn't believe in all-loving god.

Stephen Hawking believes in God and but isn't Christian.

Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception.

BaldJean wrote: Snow Dog wrote: This thread finally proves that Baldjean is a fruitcake.......mind you, I like fruitcake was that proof really necessary?

Good answer Baldjean!

Tony R wrote: Stephen Hawking believes in God and is a Christian. Just thought I would make that point.It shows that clear thinkers can have warped perception.

I don't believe you.

goose wrote: It's impossible to prove anything without making assumptions. Assumptions required to believe in scientific theory are just easier to make in this day and age.

The satellites orbitting earth prove the theory of gravity right. What kind of assumptions I have to do about it?

Logos wrote: "He [the pope] told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference - the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation."

I also got my impression about him from this kind of verses in that book, which I also have read. I'm not sure about his theories, but the main body of the book is a good history of physics, and there's some fundamental, scientifically proved theories explained in it.

I would recommend the books by finnish Kari Enqvist, though I'm not sure if his books are translated to any other landquages?

Tony R wrote: Logos wrote: Tony R wrote: I know what it is. Hawking mentions several time that he believes in God. Very surprising. I've never noticed that. And although he might have hinted that he believes in the existence of god ( which I still seriously doubt ) he certainly doesn't say IN THAT BOOK that he is a Christian. That I know for a fact. On the contrary , here's a quote from the book: "He [the pope] told us that it was all right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that he did not know the subject of the talk I had just given at the conference - the possibility that space-time was finite but had no boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of Creation." Sorry Logos a typo: I meant to write that he does believe in God but isnt a Christian!! () My bad,I cant even read my own posts properly....

that's whay you need to put a disclaimer in your sig like me.

VVVVVVV

Now it seems to me, there are several people here who just pass off the Bible as 'just a book'.  I have to ask, have you ever actually studied the Bible?  I never met one person who has actually studied it and passed it off as 'just a book'.  While everyones view of the Bible is different, I feel you really have to study it before making judgment.  I mean, how many of you would spazz out if I said 'Prog Rock sucks!' because I heard one song by Rush and Geddy Lee's 'gay hamster voice'? 

Moving on, I thought I should share what my dad wrote about the Bible.

The B-I-B-L-E: What it means to me

Leviticus 11:1 – 8

Acts 10: 9 -16

The B-I-B-L-E what does it mean to me?  It is a question I ask myself multiple times each day.  Is it the best selling book of all times?  Is it a history of a people?  Is it a collection of adventure stories with action heroes? Is it a trail guide as Dane pointed out last week in the children’s sermon?  Is it something that most homes in America have at least one of - we have at least 8 – 10?  How many of them are read?  How many sit on the shelf next to Dickens, Conan Doyle and Emerson gathering the same dust, so others think you are well read?  Hopefully they’re not shelved next to Jacqueline Susann and Tom Clancy.

Before I start to relate what the Bible means to me, let’s take a look at what it is and how it has been used.  Some definitions --

From the CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY we get this definition – A book or collection of sacred writings. The term "bible" is best known in reference to the Christian Scriptures consisting of the both the Old and New Testaments. The word comes from the Greek, biblios, meaning "book."

Or from Body and Mind -- The sacred book of the Christian religion, that consists of the Old Testament which is also sacred to the Jewish faith and the New Testament.

Or - The holy scriptures of the Christians, comprising 66 books: 39 in the Old and 27 in the New Testament.

From the Netdictionary - bible -- A detailed and sometimes authoritative reference book  covering a particular operating system, platform, or application. Originally, this was used generically to describe fundamental source books; more recently, it has been embraced by computer book publishers as a marketing ploy.  (AND SOMETIMES authoritative reference book )

These are all good definitions but not one of them or even all of them combined truly represents what the Bible means to me.  It is the holy word of God.  It is the authority and voice of God speaking to us. 
The Bible was probably originally conveyed orally. In a time when few people were literate and printing unknown, this was appropriate.  Since wide spread literacy is a fairly recent event, memorization and re-iteration of Bible lessons was and is quite common. The Book of Job is thought by many scholars to be the first of the books written down.  The “Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.  It is so sacred to some Jews that they will run into a burning synagogue to save it – in fact some declare that to be doctrine from what I have been told.

Over history, people’s access to the Bible has been repeatedly hindered.  During the Dark Ages it was written in a language that the common people did not understand (Latin) and chained to the altar of the Church.  People could listen to the word but not hear it.  Image if this message was in a language you didn’t understand. 
A  bom  Sum David.
23:0   
23:1    |  joH'a'  ghaH  wIj  DevwI':
23:1      jIH  DIchDaq  Hutlh  pagh.
23:2    |  ghaH  chen  jIH  Qot  bIng  Daq
   SuD  tI yotlh.
23:2      ghaH  Dev  jIH  retlh  vIHHa'  bIQmey.
The famous Gutenberg Bible was the first major work to be printed with movable type thus allowing for greater circulation.  Two of the earliest components of the Reformation were the translation of the Bible into the vernacular and unchaining the Bible from the altar. By the way the King James Version was not the first English translation.  In England it was chained up again to stop it from being stolen.  Today the Bible is available in almost every language, including at least one that really doesn’t exist.  If you haven’t figured out what I just read to you it was Psalm 23: 1 – 2 in Klingon.
People hunger for copies of the Bible.  They go to jail for having a copy.  Yes they even suffer physical torture and even death to read the Bible!  This is not from the past this is going on today especially in some Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Sub-Saharan Africa and Communists countries like China.  Why – there must be something in the Bible that makes these dictatorships fear.  Can it be the true Word?  Can you image not being able to read or own a Bible! Like so many things in our lives, we take this privilege for granted.  Would you be willing to risk your liberty or even your life to have access to God’s word? 
This is from an April 2003 news article: “Rules in Muslim host countries such as Kuwait "mostly prohibit the entry of alcoholic beverages, narcotics, munitions, pork and its by-products, pornography and material contrary to the Islamic religion," US Defence Department said.
Capt Tommy Vaughan, an army chaplain said nothing prohibits soldiers from carrying the Bible. "Soldiers are told they are permitted to carry two books; their soldier's handbook and a Bible."
Bible societies say the prohibitions on "material contrary to the Islamic religion" don't include Scripture and US troops and chaplains are requesting thousands of Bibles, the 'Washington Post' reported.
The Campus Crusade for Christ said it has been swamped by an average of 25,000 requests per month. Over 400,000 Bibles have been sent to troops in the past 18 months via military channels. Currently, it has orders for 42,000, many of those orders coming from the war zone, the group said.”

That is my quick history of the Bible’s spread.  Now I will tell you what it means to me.

Understanding the Bible has been a life long journey for me.  The more I study it – not just read it, the more I learn and the more I realize how much more there is to learn.  I have gone through phases in this journey, which in some respects follows the way the Bible has been used and accessed as I just outlined. 

Phase 1. Being told stories
I received my first Bible on June 14, 1958 from my parents.  I didn’t start school until August 1959 so obviously I wasn’t reading it myself.  When I think back – the earliest stories I remember hearing are those from the Bible – Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses, David, Jesus.  The earliest lessons I learned on how to behave came from the Bible – the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments.  By the way, Barbara and I have done the same with our kids; one of the first books they all received was a King James Version of the Bible.  And they have read them cover-to-cover.   

Phase 2. Reading and memorizing
Reading and memorizing passages and the books of the Bible in Sunday School, whether I was at the Baptist church in Stillwater, OK or the Lakeview Heights Reformed Church in Clifton, NJ or the ecumenical classes at Ft. Know, KY or Canterbury Presbyterian Church in Cornwall, NY.  It seems the stories were the same.  The stories of Moses – the basket in the bulrushes, the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea.  Or there was David and Goliath – there is a story for an Army brat like me.  Of course who can forget Noah and the Ark or Daniel and the Lions Den. 

Then of course I heard the stories of Jesus.  Of his birth in a stable, how he walked on water and calmed the sea.  I don’t recall the story of the changing of water to wine at the wedding feast - probably to controversial for a Southern Baptist church.  I was told that he died – that he was crucified (what ever that meant) – and that he rose from the dead to save us. 

Phase 3.  Reading for myself
I then started to read these stories for myself along with the good old stand bys of the Lord’s Prayer and Psalm 23 – in English not Klingon.  Reading children’s versions of Bible stories was probably my first effort at this.  I know my kids started out that way.  I would memorize some versus but I do not think that I understood what they really meant. 

These “classics” where the stories I remember and that Barbara and I told to our kids when they were very young.  But do you notice what is missing from these stories.  We hear of the great accomplishments of the Old Testament leaders and of the beginning and end of Jesus’ life on Earth.  What is missing?  That takes me to phase 4 of my sojourn with the Bible. 

Phase 4 – The beginning of questions and answers
I have read the Bible through several times and am doing it again.  I read it nearly every day.  Each time, I find myself asking more and I think better or at least more thought provoking questions.  The first few times it seemed I was raising more questions then getting answers. 

How come does it seem the Bible contradicts itself?  I would ask.  It doesn’t but you have to study it to see the answers.  For example the reading for this morning from Leviticus tells us that we cannot it pigs, yet one of the traditional Easter meals is ham.  Why?  Or why can we eat cheeseburgers when the Jews are forbidden?  Acts 10: 9 – 11 helps answer this.  Now granted this is not necessarily a deep theological question for 21st century Christians, yet dietary laws are extremely important to many Jews today.  And until the Second Vatican Council members of the Roman Church were forbidden to eat meat on Fridays. 

Or – and this is the historian in me coming out – why are there few or no historical records supporting the Bible?  Biblical minimalist in history and Biblical Archeology play down the truth and accuracy of the Bible.  Yet there are more and more discoveries that corroborate the Bible’s accounts – not the other way around.  Here are two examples.  First - Until a few decades ago, the Hittites were only known through the few passages in the Bible that mention them.  Since then, extensive archeolical evidence has been found on Hettite civilization.  Second – King David is held by these naysayers to be a myth.  They pointed to the fact that no records of him exist.  A few years ago a document identifying a king as of the House of David was found. 

Phase 5 – Studying and the birth of understanding
Like many employees of Corning Incorporated I tend to work through most lunch breaks.  However, on Wednesday’s you can usually find me gathered with some co-workers meeting as the Sullivan Park Bible Study. 

Here we study in-depth specific books or topics.  Over the past three years we have studied, Job, Revelation, Ruth and now James.  What I am finding out is that the more I study, the more I understand.  The book of Revelation use to scare the pants off of me!  It was God going to get us.  Then came Erich Von Daniken, - Chariots of the Gods – and others who said that the Revelation of John was space ships and alien creatures.  This along with most of Von Daniken’s theories has been debunked.  Through the Bible study, I came to realize that instead of being the scariest book ever written, it is one of the most uplifting.  If you truly believe in Christ and his divine powers, you have nothing to fear.  Only goodness can come to you from the events in Revelation.

I also learned through studying Revelation and James that to understand the New Testament, you need to understand the Old Testament.  Something many Christian do not do enough of.  A good example of this is my better understanding of this morning’s readings. As I cited above, the two passages look like commentary on dietary laws.  But what Acts really is about is Jesus admonishing Peter for refusing to spread the Gospel to Gentiles.  Peter was a devout Jew who followed the Mosaic Laws.  These laws told Jews that they could have no contact with unclean things including Gentiles.  Jesus tells Peter that he (Peter) cannot make unclean those things that he has made clean (Gentiles) through his sacrifice.  Without understanding the Old Testament context of this story, its deeper meaning is lost on us.

The late Minister of Defense – Reggie White who besides being an incredibly talented football player was also a mister of the Word, realized this fact.  He did not preach the Word the last five years of his life because he came to feel that he did not understand the Old Testament enough.  Instead he studied it in its original language in an effort to better understand it.  Now I think that is admirable but it is not necessary or even feasible for all to do this.  What I feel is right for me is to find the best translation I can.  I believe that God reveals his Word to us in our hearts as well as our minds.

Phase 6  -- What’s next
My Bible journey does not have a 5-year plan. I am not certain what phase 6 will be.  But I am certain there will be a phase 6 and perhaps 7, 8 and beyond.

So there is what my dad has to say about the Bible.  I hope you find it educational, informative, somewhat moving and entertaining as well.  I know I did when he gave the sermon.  As for me, I have only read the Bible once, all the way, but probably 15 years of Bible study.  This Wednesday I head off to college to really begin to study the Bible and will gain more knowledge and understanding of 'that book'.

Tony:

May I add one?  This is Hawking on the "anthropic principle" (i.e., that the universe was created for the "purpose" of creating human life; i.e., that everything from the Big Bang forward led directly to "us"):

"It would be very difficult to explain why the universe should have begun in this way, except as the act of a God who intended to create beings like us."  Stephen Hawking.

Peace.

BaldJean wrote: hmm, I can't understand what the bible suddenly does in this thread. one can believe in a deity without the bible; there is more than just one religion

I thought I explained why I brought it up.  In fact, it was the first thing I brought up.

Yes, one can Believe in God without the Bible.  But the Bible is a great source of information, right?  And one who is studying the nature of God should use different resources.  Be it the Holy Bible, the Quoran, or Pain of Salvation's BE.

BaldFriede:

The anthropic principle is not based on a "backward" view of time, but a forward view.  It's premise begins with the Big Bang, it does not end with it.  Hence (and I admit to being very simplistic here, as well as leaving out a few steps...):

1.  As a result of the Big Bang, energy was "released"
2.  Had that energy not been released, it would not have created helium, hydrogen and the other initial elements.
3.  Had those elements not been created, other elements would not have been created.
4.  Had all the elements not been created, there would not have been "matter."
5.  Had matter not been created, there would not have been nebulae, etc.
6.  Had those nebulae not been created - and had gravity not played its part - there would be no stars or galaxies.
7.  If stars and galaxies had not been created, there would be no star systems.
8.  If star systems had not been created, there would be no planetary systems around some of those stars.
9.  If planetary systems had not been created, our sun would not have "captured" the nine (not ten?) known planets in its system.
10.  If the sun had not captured the nine planets in its system - in the exact configuration and distances - there would not have been a planet in that system that had an "atmosphere" in which life could be created.
11.  If that atmosphere around the third planet had not formed exactly as it did, it would not have trapped the necessary elements and molecules required to generate life.
12.  If it had not trapped the necessary elements and molecules required to generate life, then even one-celled life would not have formed.
13.  If one-celled life had not formed, then two-celled life could not have formed.
14.  If two-celled life had not formed, then the evolution of life would not have occurred.
15.  If the evolution of life had not occurred exactly as it did, then some amphibians would not have become reptiles; some reptiles would not have become birds and mammals; some mammals would not have become primates; some primates would not have become Australopithecus; Australopithecus would not have become Homo habilis; Homo habilis would not have become Homo erectus; Homo erectus would not have become Homo sapiens; and Homo sapiens would not have become Homo sapiens sapiens.

Certainly one could look at the timeline "backward."  But that is not how the anthropic principle is arrived at.

Peace.

Tony R wrote: Sorry Logos a typo: I meant to write that he does believe in God but isnt a Christian!! () My bad,I cant even read my own posts properly....

Now that's more like it.