(Musician) Ruined ( Band) for me.
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Topic: (Musician) Ruined ( Band) for me.
Posted By: Argo2112
Subject: (Musician) Ruined ( Band) for me.
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 11:28
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This one might start some trouble bur here goes. Name the one band member that ruined a particular band for you. I'll start , I like Led Zeppelin but I think I would like them a lot more if they had another singer. I don't mind Plants voice on the softer melodic stuff but his screeching on some of the harder stuff goes right through me. Not to mention, how many times can you yell the word " baby " in one song before the lyric police fine you? (Please don't kill me Zeppelin fans  )So, Who is it for you?
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Replies:
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 12:12
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that it ruins the music for me but I've never been a fan of Martin Turner's vocals on Wishbone Ash.
On some Spock's Beard songs (from back in the Neal Morse days) there are guitar parts from Alan Morse that are grating/screeching and come close to ruining the song for me
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Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 12:53
| I think I would be bigger Opeth fan if they hadn´t used as much growl vocals as they did. I am really glad they have stopped it. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 13:55
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It's usually the vocalist(s) for me, as soon as the insipid harmonized vocals come in with bland generic lyrics I jump ship. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: MortSahlFan
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 14:13
I agree with you. I think Terry Reid would have been better. Plant gets on my nerves, and that's not counting the masturbation sounds he makes on stage.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
Argo2112 wrote:Posted By: tempest_77
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 15:41
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Jesse Lacey ruined Brand New for me. Nothing to do with his voice, just the whole sexual assault thing. ------------- I use they/them pronouns (feel free to ask me about this!) Check out my music on https://tempestsounds.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow - my bandcamp ! |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 17:30
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Peter Cetera’s a great bass player and a good singer, and even a pretty good songwriter, but the success of “If You Leave Me Now” on Chicago X turned him into the band’s resident fruitcake, and the success of his singles ensured there would be more to come. I fear that even if Terry K hadn’t died after XI, his role would have been marginalized anyway. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: dwill123
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 17:34
| I didn't like it when Adrian Belew joined King Crimson. The music got a little silly. |
Posted By: Larkstongue41
Date Posted: July 18 2018 at 18:07
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I used to spin Pink Floyd albums regularly... before I listened to a few Gilmour and Waters interviews. ------------- "Larks' tongues. Wrens' livers. Chaffinch brains. Jaguars' earlobes. Wolf nipple chips. Get 'em while they're hot. They're lovely. Dromedary pretzels, only half a denar." |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: July 19 2018 at 04:11
Heh. Recently, I feel kinda the same way after hearing some Neil Peart interviews. It doesn't make me want to listen to the music any less but it does make it a bit harder to separate the man from the art, as it were.
Growling pretty much ruins any song for me. |
Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: July 19 2018 at 05:02
Steven Wilson is kinda a grade-A d***  and it ruined any interest I had in his music. Used to own all Porcupine and solo, now none. It also didn't age well with me. I remember an old thread in these here domains, from an interview from Steven about The Flower Kings: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88744 Honestly, looking back, Steven viewing The Flower Kings as the death of progressive music, though it is a harsh opinion, is JUST an opinion. I certainly don't see his viewpoint on that progressive music nowadays needs to be needlessly heavy, infact that's what hasn't aged well with me. Doesn't sound organic to me, lots of the new heavier progressive albums. Eh. People can have Wilson. I'd say Hip-Hop is actually today's progressive (Donuts, King Geedorah, Madvillany, MM Food, Frank Ocean, Quasimoto, Viktor Vaughn..) But nobody would go for that, no.. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: July 19 2018 at 08:26
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Nad Sylvan ruined Agents of Mercy and pretty much every act he was in (including Anderson/Stolt) for me. Can't stand his choked and clogged voice. ------------- 
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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: July 19 2018 at 08:50
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90% of my choices would involve singers…but I’ll go for
something a bit different. Judas Priest had a string of terrific drummers in the 70’s,
then David Holland joined in 1979. Maybe he had spent his talent-wad on
Trapeze, but he was such a boring time-keeper with almost no fills, rolls, anything.
Granted, Priest’s stuff during his tenure was often classic, including their
biggest FM hard-rock hits as well as some of my favorites by the band, but I
can only imagine how much better songs like “Freewheel Burning” and such would’ve
sounded with a more adventurous drummer and not a dull metronome. Him leaving in
the late 80’s helped the band’s brief resurgence with Painkiller. Then the awful sex offences and imprisonment in 2004 made
him such a pariah, his name was never brought up concerning the current
re-interest in the band and their legacy. When he died this past January,
nobody blinked an eye…it was like he never existed in the first place. If
somehow Judas Priest wind up in the R&RHOF (I know, not that it matters), I
doubt David Holland’s name will be included despite playing drums on the songs
most people know them for. I try not to think of the guy while hearing “Breaking
the Law”, “You’ve Got Another Thing Coming” and such, but after awhile I notice
the plain drum beats, then think of the guy, and what he did later in life… |
Posted By: Fischman
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 23:06
| Well, Steve Perry took a band with some promise straight into sappy, saccharine arena rock hell. |
Posted By: Mortte
Date Posted: July 21 2018 at 23:54
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Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 00:47
Haha.. holy Sh-1t. Now that I'm listening to more and more of his songs, I totally got used to the nuances in the guy's vocals and I'm fine with his voice now. Who would've ever thought?  -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 03:16
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Novalis and the totally uninspired Hartwig Biereichel on drums. And I know I will get flak from Rush fans for this, but Neil Peart is also totally uninspired, though technically much better than Biereichel. But great technique does not make up for lack of inspiration. Peart is the main reason I don't like Rush. Rush fans will of course point out the famous Neil Peart drum solo, but this solo actually only proves my point. It is played exactly the same way every time he plays it; not a bit of improvisation at all. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Cambus741
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 03:27
| I don't like Purple with anyone other than Gillan as singer. |
Posted By: Quinino
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 04:46
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Dream Theater vocalist (what's his name) is totally insufferable for me (but I make an exception for Metropolis, love the album) |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 06:45
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AWESOME!!!!! Captcha is back.. got me (unsaved) with an emoticon ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 06:50
try this again, minus the emoticon.. LaBrie was FAR from the only fatal affliction that group had. Just the most obvious and most fun to sh*t upon As far as the topic itself and musicians, not singers. Really hard to say. I'd have to think back and think long to consider any and likely wouldn't be prog groups. Now a more interesting side topic would be the absence of which musicians ruined bands moving forward. The shining example in my book being Phil Shulman and Gentle Giant who lost the plot and whose sound and style completely changed and NOT for the better. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: wiz_d_kidd
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 07:38
I mostly agree, but have to say Discipline was an absolute gem (for me, anyway). After that, I think Belew exerted too much influence and moved the music in a direction I didn't care for.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: October 13 2018 at 11:06
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^ Ditto for me..... ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 14 2018 at 02:28
If there's one thing which makes a musician stand out from the crowd it's being able to play the same thing twice - so many musos just can't do that including some very famous ones. As for Peart being an uninspired drummer - well, each to their own I suppose and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. At least it keeps the discussion interesting...
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Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 14 2018 at 02:56
Yeah Labrie is cringeworthy these days. I still love the earlier DT albums up to "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" but after that they seemed to go so far downhill in terms of memorable songwriting although the musical virtuosity remains. Labries live performances were never that great and I always thought he was a bit of a wailer on stage but nowadays he just makes me cringe and I can't watch him at all. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: October 14 2018 at 22:08
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The 3 Voivod albums with Jason Newstead on bass are almost as boring is the Mehallica albums he played on. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 02:01
I totally disagree. Being able to play the same thing twice is what playing composed music is all about, so it is very basic. But for a solo, where in my opinion a musician has the chance to let his imagination flow and improvise like hell, this is extremely boring and uninspired. By the way: Most classical composers, for example Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, were great improvisors. Many of their compositions were originally improvised and only afterwards noted down. And THIS is what makes a great musician: To be able to remember what you improvised and write it down. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 03:17
Hiya, As I say : each to their own and differences in opinion are what keeps a discussion interesting. Personally it really does my head in when someone like Gilmour comes along with a performance of say "Time" and plays the solo completely differently from what I've known and loved for forty years. Gary Moore was always guilty of that too - he'd play all these great songs and then improvise for 10 minutes widdling mindlessly in an improvised solo which was basically just dull and uninteresting and nothing like the one on the original song which I had grown to love. Compare those two to someone like Petrucci for example who can deliver the same complex pieces note for note time and time again... On the other hand, the jazz guitarist Martin Taylor is a great improvisor and one of the most skilled players I've ever heard who can also repeat the most complex pieces note for note. I don't know what Mozarts or Beethovens thoughts are/were on improvisation but I like Beethovens piano sonatas and Mozarts symphonies just as they are and wouldn't like to hear improvised versions of them. Anyway as I say again, it's all just differences of opinion and no offence intended to you...
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Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 05:35
ahem. I would like to explicate what Friede said. first of all: I am a classically trained pianist and also have training in harmonics and composition, so I know what I am talking about. the way I understand you you seem to think that improvised music is somehow inferior to composed music. maybe you think it is not as complex or structured as composed music. this is, however, not true at all; an improvised piece can be just as complex as a composed piece. or maybe you are a follower of the genius cult of the romantic era. or maybe you just aren't very adventurous. I as a true Sagittarian am however very adventurous, and so is Friede as a true Aquarian (this sense of adventure is what keeps our relationship going). you also have some misinterpretations about sonatas. you think they are all totally composed. however, classical composers like Mozart and Beethoven left room for improvised solo cadences, usually in the 3rd movement. they wrote down these cadences afterwards, but originally they were improvised. what's more: many classical pianists wrote their own cadences which they and other pianists play when performing a certain sonata. so when someone plays for example Mozart it is only Mozart up to a certain point. the French-Canadian pianist Marc-André Hamelin, probably the most technically skilled pianist of today, is very well known for this. his skill is absolutely breathtaking; he likes to play very complicated pieces and make them even more complicated by additions of his own
-------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 05:40
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suit yourself |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 06:31
you misunderstand me. I am not talking about liking or not liking improvisation. I am pointing out that much of what you believe to be composed is actually improvised ------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 06:32
| OK |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 07:38
This really doesn't make any sense. If Peart never had an inspiration, then he never would have learned to play the drums or he merely would have become a studio player, playing for other people. I'm not taking issue with you not caring for Peart. That's fine but improvisation is not necessarily the same as inspiration. To call Neil uninspired is just plain wrong. If you want to call him non-improvisational then yeah, that's not really his style, although he still improvised a little bit at times.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 08:13
I will quote the dictionary for the meaning of "inspiration". inspiration ɪnspɪˈreɪʃ(ə)n/< width="14" ="" height="14"> noun noun: inspiration
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 08:58
Haha, I jump on your other suggestion. I agree Hartwig Biereichel is an amazingly bad drummer in such an otherwise good band, but there was never any Novalis without Biereichel so it's hard to say he "ruined" them for anyone. More likely is that without him the band would never have existed because I think on a personal level he was quite central and important for them.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 09:01
WURD. Seriously. After Les Binks, Holland is the worst drummer they could have had. Thank God Travis joined in later. I dislike that Travis is so fill happy but anything better than more mechanical than a drum machine Holland. While not a ruinous replacement, Jabs stepping in for Uli Roth took a lot out of the band. You don't want to hear his stabs at We'll Burn The Sky. Wait, actually with all due respect to Meine and Rudy Schenker, Uli Roth pretty much made the band. Only he screamed out genius in the entire lineup and when he was gone, they gradually became a dull, albeit far more successful, band.
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Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 09:26
Peart was incapable of coming up with "sudden brilliant or timely ideas" while creating drums parts for 19 studio albums and countless live performances? Really? If you don't like Peart (and it's obvious you don't) then just come out and say so. Don't try to justify it by cherry picking the definition you want (and being, oh by the way, dead wrong to boot).
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 09:48
Sigh; I knew this would come from Rush fans. They would (deliberately?) misunderstand me. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: The.Crimson.King
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 10:06
Same here. I like Belew's solo albums, but in Crimson he tries too hard to be weird and comes off like a poor mans David Byrne. I'd also add Tony Levin, love his Chapman Stick work but have never liked his bass playing, too funk for my taste. ------------- https://wytchcrypt.wixsite.com/mutiny-in-jonestown" rel="nofollow - Mutiny in Jonestown : Progressive Rock Since 1987 |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: October 15 2018 at 20:29
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I would like to elaborate a bit more on what I said to
flyingveepixie (about not knowing what is composed and what is
improvised). many baroque compositions are for an instrument or a group
of instruments plus basso continuo. I could explain what basso continuo
is but I will instead quote from Wikipedia: Basso continuo parts, almost universal in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_music" rel="nofollow - Baroque era (1600–1750), provided the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - harmonic structure of the music. The phrase is often shortened to continuo, and the instrumentalists playing the continuo part are called the continuo group. The makeup of the continuo group is often left to the discretion of the performers, and practice varied enormously within the Baroque period. At least one instrument capable of playing chords must be included, such as a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano" rel="nofollow - piano , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpsichord" rel="nofollow - harpsichord , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - organ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lute" rel="nofollow - lute , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theorbo" rel="nofollow - theorbo , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar" rel="nofollow - guitar , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regal_%28instrument%29" rel="nofollow - regal , or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp" rel="nofollow - harp . In addition, any number of instruments which play in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - bass register may be included, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello" rel="nofollow - cello , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass" rel="nofollow - double bass , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol" rel="nofollow - bass viol , or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bassoon" rel="nofollow - bassoon . The most common combination, at least in modern performances, is harpsichord and cello for instrumental works and secular vocal works, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera" rel="nofollow - operas , and organ for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_music" rel="nofollow - sacred music . Typically performers match the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_%28musical_instruments%29" rel="nofollow - instrument families used in the full ensemble: including bassoon when the work includes oboes or other winds, but restricting it to cello and/or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bass" rel="nofollow - double bass if only strings are involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harp" rel="nofollow - Harps , lutes, and other handheld instruments are more typical of early 17th-century music. Sometimes instruments are specified by the composer: in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOrfeo" rel="nofollow - L'Orfeo (1607) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monteverdi" rel="nofollow - Monteverdi calls for an exceptionally varied instrumentation, with multiple harpsichords and lutes with a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_violin" rel="nofollow - bass violin in the pastoral scenes followed by lamenting to the accompaniment of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_organ" rel="nofollow - organo di legno and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitarrone" rel="nofollow - chitarrone , while https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charon_%28mythology%29" rel="nofollow - Charon stands watch to the sound of a regal. The keyboard (or other chord-playing instrument) player realizes a continuo part by playing, in addition to the notated bass line, notes above it to complete chords, either determined ahead of time or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_improvisation" rel="nofollow - improvised in performance. The figured bass notation, described below, is a guide, but performers are also expected to use their musical judgment and the other instruments or voices (notably the lead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melody" rel="nofollow - melody and any https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - accidentals that might be present in it) as a guide. Experienced players sometimes incorporate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_%28music%29" rel="nofollow - motives found in the other instrumental parts into their improvised chordal accompaniment. Modern editions of such music usually supply a realized keyboard part, fully written out in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_notation" rel="nofollow - staff notation for a player, in place of improvisation. With the rise in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historically_informed_performance" rel="nofollow - historically informed performance , however, the number of performers who are able to improvise their parts from the figures, as Baroque players would have done, has increased.[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figured_bass#cite_note-3" rel="nofollow - [3] [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability" rel="nofollow - Sonata in e minor for flute and basso continuo (BWV 1034) you should be aware that this basso continuo part is not fully written out; the composer left it to the skill of the performing musician(s) to improvise that part. improvisation
is sadly not something that is taught at institutions that train modern
classical musicians (I was lucky that my second teacher put great
emphasis on training improvisational skills too, but then I did not go
to any of these institutions; I had private lessons). but musicians of
the past were expected to be able to improvise. you
should also remember that there were no recording devices at the time
most classical composers lived. so what could they do when they wanted
some of the improvised music they played to audiences to be played by
others? they wrote it down, but after it was played, not before. during
the romantic era genius was seen as being superior to skill. it was
then that improvisation started to vanish from musical performances; the
"genius" of the composer suddenly became all-important. what was
written down now was a holy cow. this attitude towards notated music has
remained until today. in recent years the interest in improvisation in
classical music had a little revival, mostly due to the rise of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historically_informed_performance" rel="nofollow - historically informed performance
------------- A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 16 2018 at 01:10
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these discussions are all bollocks anyway |
Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: October 16 2018 at 05:33
I'm not deliberately misunderstanding you. It comes down to your interpretation of inspired as opposed to mine. Reading what you wrote, I don't see that as "lack of inspiration". I see it as "lack of improvisation". You consider his lack of improvisation to be a lack of inspiration. I don't. However, reading your post above about classical music, I now have a better idea of where you're coming from. You are correct that Peart is (mostly) not improvisational in his playing. That's not his thing. He has admitted that he is far more compositional than improvisational in his playing. However, I think that dismissing his worth based on the fact that he doesn't vary up his drum fills, etc during live performances is unfair. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: October 16 2018 at 06:00
Third page and not a Phil Collins mention?? watsrongwifuguys??
Yup, though I do like most of Discipline, I'm no fan of 80's Crimson, and I can definitely blame it mostly on Ade... But then again, je was there for the 90's and 00's albums and prefer them over the 80's.
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: October 16 2018 at 06:16
You are not the first one to confuse me with my wife (same-sex marriage) BaldJean, probably because we have the same avatar (the cover of the first album of our band Bald Angels). She was the one who wrote that classical music post. She is the keyboarder and guitar player and sings some harmony vocals, I am the drummer, bass player and lead singer. Jean is also responsible for the compositions; I write the lyrics. Just to make this clear: I do not doubt the technical skills of Neil Peart. But playing the same every time is in my opinion totally boring; it makes you appear like a music bureaucrat. I myself most definitely don't do that. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: flyingveepixie
Date Posted: October 16 2018 at 07:19
cheers
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Posted By: Jeffro
Date Posted: October 16 2018 at 08:12
Fair enough and apologies for mixing up the posts.
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: November 20 2018 at 15:36
Well after reading his "Not Dead Yet" memoir and watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSNDwToWdIc" rel="nofollow - stuff like that I personally figured the whole Genesis-going-pop thing was a natural progression (sic!) of the band. Actually it looks like both Banks and Rutherford tried to write a hit (aka sappy love songs) for years, but only when Collins caught huge success with his solo output they let him write for Genesis too. Tony in particular seems to be so jealous of Phil's success and so bitter about it, while he should've been thankful to their drummer boi for creating four more albums with the band after those sensational sales of "Face Value" - because eventually these albums meant more money for Tony too. Hell, Tony's even bitter about Peter being the unique frontman that he was - quote "I felt it was Peter becoming the main focus of both the music press and the fans, not the band". Well if not Peter and his shenanigans, would've Genesis been noticed at all? Who knows... |