Atom Pawn Hearts Mother: VdGG and P. Floyd suites
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Topic: Atom Pawn Hearts Mother: VdGG and P. Floyd suites
Posted By: Logan
Subject: Atom Pawn Hearts Mother: VdGG and P. Floyd suites
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 16:05
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Two tracks that I adore off two rather divisive albums -- with Pawn Hearts especially I have seen both loving and loathing at the forum and of course certain Pink Floyd members have been critical when it comes to Atom Heart Mother, perhaps due to Geesin's involvement in large part (the AHM suite is my favourite music put out under the Floyd name). Just in case anyone here needs refreshing, or even possibly does not know both (a shocking notion, I know): ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 16:08
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I'm not the biggest fan of Van der Graaf Generator, so Pink Floyd. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 17:15
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Despite the fact that I honestly can't choose, I'll always choose, and my choice is... Plague of Lighthouse Keepers. Just about. |
Posted By: jamesbaldwin
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 17:37
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I love Atom Heart Mother, which I consider the album with which Floyd inaugurates their prog phase. The Piper, remains, in my opinion, their absolute masterpiece (but we are outside the prog), AHM marks their turning point and Wish You Were Here in my opinion represents their peak of mannerism, which transcends prog. AHM enjoys two great masterpieces, the suite and Summer '68, the latter being one of the best Floyd songs ever. Then it contains two more beautiful songs and finally a half misstep: APBreakfast, which brings down the effort, the tension, and the quality of the album. The suite, despite being the first of the PFs, is the most elaborate, cultured, planned down to the smallest detail, it is certainly the largely resultof Geesin's job, it represents a unicum in the Floyd's production, it is practically perfect but at the same time it is too much "studied to the table", it is very schematic, it is a production masterpiece, of those who know how to do their job and use all the weapons and all the tricks of the trade. A Plague is all its opposite, the suite is not perfect, it has repetitive pieces, it has fast improvisations resulting from harmonic jumps, it is pure instinct that is then edited, controlled, and assembled. The dissonances are not planned as for AMH, they are the result of the progression of music but above all in Plague there is the soul of Hammill, his lyrics and his dramatic, apocalyptic, penitential singing, for me they are priceless and definitively pose this suite a notch above AMH, because on the one hand (the Floyd's) there is an infinite wisdom of craftsmanship, on the other (the Vdgg's) there is the bleeding soul of Hammill, for me the vocals and the singing are two dimensions that, if inspired, if beautiful and adherent to music place it close to contemporary operas, and in fact A Plague could be considered an expressionist and existentialist opera where the author reaches musical and lyrical peaks of the highest level (surpassed even more by Man-Erg on 'the other side). In short, in my opinion, we move in the best of the best of rock music, bordering on the quality of contemporary cultured music. ------------- Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 17:49
| I'll go with AHM. Though I like both very much, I listen to AHM more often. Hammill's vocals are certainly not my cup of tea. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 19:17
| Atom Heart Mother. I love about the first half of Plague, but then it goes downhill as far as I am concerned. |
Posted By: TheLionOfPrague
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 19:21
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I clearly like Floyd more than Van der Graaf but I clearly like Lighthouse Keepers more than Atom Heart Mother. Pawn Hearts is one of the best prog albums ever made and Lighthouse Keepers is one of the best songs ever written, plain and simple. I know Atom Heart Mother (the album) is divisive but I thought basically everyone who likes VDGG rates Pawn Hearts highly. I still rate Atom Heart Mother highly, both the song and the album, but VDGG's song and album in this case are superior. ------------- I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 21:56
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^ With Pawn Hearts I was thinking more about being divisive in Prog circles generally (VdGG generally could be said to be so too, but then most everything is somewhat divisive generally), but actually (and I was thinking about this too), I have found quite a few at PA who will rate H to He, Who Am the Only One and/or The Least We Can Do is Wave to Each Other and/or Still Life highly while being very critical of Pawn Hearts, of "Lemmings" specifically, and certainly of "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" specifically. Pawn Hearts, I think, can have something of a similar effect that Zeit has with people who like other Tangerine Dream, the effect Can's Tago Mago can have on general Prog audiences, King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic and Lizard in comparison to In the Court of the King Crimson etc. Pawn Hearts can be seen as the more avant-oriented than some other albums by VdGG, more pretentious, more disjointed, more overwrought, overblown, less concise, and with more unpleasant moments than, say, H to He, and maybe less safe than some other albums. This is not say that most who are generally into VdGG would not appreciate Pawn Hearts, but there are quite a few who have more problems with that album than specific other VdGG albums and do hold it in lower regard. Many do consider it to be VdGG's masterpiece. I think one could really appreciate Pawn Hearts without really appreciating Godbluff, and vice versa. I do think for quite a few it would be a more challenging album than various other VdGG albums. Like Dellinger, I've seen various people (for instance Micky) who think that the first half of "A Plague.." is great, but these second half is inferior, and so that brings down the enjoyment of the whole album (a letdown ultimately). I love the whole suite, and in fact it is the second half that I would be more likely to want to repeat. I love the directions that "A Plague" goes and how it ends. And to those who have dismissed "Plague" as overrated crap that no one should like, a "pox" on all your houses. ;) ^^^ Thanks for the thoughtful write-up, Lorenzo. Interesting thoughts. ------------- By the way, just as some much prefer the first half of Plague, and while loving all of it I tend to favour the second half, with Atom Heart Mother I do favour the choral Breast Milky part despite liking the whole thing. That's the part that immediately resonated with me. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 22:54
I couldn't frame a better answer. Lighthouse Keepers for me as well.
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TheLionOfPrague wrote:Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 22:55
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Plaguey plague. ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 27 2021 at 23:52
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VDGG. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 01:05
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Well, I won't choose. Both are very great listens to me, but so very different that I cannot consider a preference of one over the other. Maybe I listen more often to AHM, it is easier to the ear, but the music on The Plague... is so wonderfully challenging. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 02:45
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Atom Heart Mother. Plague is too much a sequence of ups and downs. ------------- 
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Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 04:08
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I think of Plague as on another level of greatness. For me the ultimate prog rock epic. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 04:27
| AHM |
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 06:03
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Love both songs, but VDGG gets my vote here. ------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 07:01
I think I like it even better than that.  ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 08:15
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It is rather interesting how polarised opinion has been on "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers", both in this forum over the years and in the review section. Of course one will also find very balanced opinions. I've seen it called the most overrated track in history. I think that great art of its milieu (I don't have to like art to consider it great) commonly will polarise opinions more than mediocre art. It may be more controversial, riskier, less comfortable to many, and more threatening. Threatening because others appreciate something that doesn't fit one's own standards which can provoke a sort of xenophobic (fear of the other and fear of the strange), intolerant response. That people get so passionate about "Plague" from a love and hate it standpoint, defensive, righteous, and sometimes resentful of those who have a differing opinion, and headstrong about it in terms of the claims says something about its impact. Meh music tends to be "Whatever... Like it or not, I don't care" and might be damned with faint praise. It will more likely get a moderate response. I think people often are more likely to explicitly recognise the inherent subjectivity of music appreciation when it does not evoke a strong reaction. It may become everyone should like this or no one should like this instead of a more balanced appraisal that recognises to each his ow her own tastes. Is it great? Plague certainly is for me. If it isn't for others, I'm fine with that too (well, depending on the claims used if made to justify a belief). Vive la difference. Of course a large part of it because it so highly respected by many that it is more likely to provoke a contrarian response from those who would rather what they like be lauded, and so I think quite often the strong negative reactions are aimed at the people who appreciate something than at the music or art itself. A bit of a heavy-handed and heavy post considering the even-handed and reasonable responses in this thread, but I'm drawing on 15 years of perceived (by me) history at PA. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: The Anders
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 09:48
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I like it musically, and there are many interesting aspects of it for sure. I think my main issue is the vocals. They are a bit too theatrical for my taste. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: August 28 2021 at 10:05
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It would have been a tie qualitywise, but Pink Floyd didn't make anything remotely like AHM ever again and it stands as their avant-prog masterpiece. VdGG made many great tracks like Plague. ------------- I'm guitarist and songwriter for the prog-related band Mother Bass. Find us at http://www.motherbass.com. I also enter stages throughout the Netherlands performing my poetry. |
Posted By: VianaProghead
Date Posted: August 29 2021 at 03:53
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I can't choose between them because I love both.
------------- "PROG IS MY FERRARI". Jem Godfrey (Frost*) |
Posted By: Ronstein
Date Posted: August 29 2021 at 05:15
| Atom Heart Mother is one of my favorite Pink Floyd pieces, so that gets my vote. |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 29 2021 at 13:05
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I really like AHM, but I loathe VDGG in general. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 29 2021 at 13:27
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VDGG stands out for me. I still remember years ago making a run to the store while we were having a bbq with people over and coming home and out of the car I could hear this particular VDGG tune blasting from the back deck. Made me so proud that the bro-in-law took the initiative to do that while I was gone. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: August 30 2021 at 00:15
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I'm proud of PA on this poll for not just steam rolling Pink Floyd as winner because Pink Floyd, lol. This particular VDGG track is incredibly strong and most certainly deserves its rightful place as a heavyweight contender for one of the best extended tracks of that era, let alone in prog in general! ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: August 30 2021 at 07:45
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Had to go with VDGG for this one, but just barely. It was very close. ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 02 2021 at 03:10
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AHM. Love VDGG, but could never get my head around Plague. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Olape
Date Posted: September 11 2021 at 13:20
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Both are outstanding, immortal, pieces of music. That said, I go with the Floyds. ------------- 
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: September 11 2021 at 22:56
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My fingers feel like seaweed I'm so far out I'm too far in
------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: September 26 2022 at 23:53
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Van der Graaf Generator - "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers" ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
Posted By: I prophesy disaster
Date Posted: September 27 2022 at 06:27
I prophesy disaster and then I count the cost... I shine but, shining, dying, I know that I am almost lost. ------------- No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man. |
Posted By: digdug
Date Posted: September 27 2022 at 09:20
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Floyd ------------- Prog On! |