1. Be polite. Do not insult people, no matter how strongly you disagree with them or how wrong or misleading you think their posts are. You may insult them back if they insult you first (and moderators choose to stay away), but of course not much good will come of that, since it escalates the bad behaviour. (I've often failed to resist the temptation)

1.1. Do not mock people or make fun of their arguments unless they indicate that they're not being serious about the topic either. You would not do that in real life discussions, would you?

2. Do not tell others what to say or do, or how to think. You can criticise them as much as you want, or say that you would do it differently, but you are you and they are them. Treat them as fellow human beings who are entitled to making their own decisions.

3. When you write a lengthy post, you do so at your own risk of it being ignored. Other users are under no obligation to a) read it or b) write a lengthy post themselves to address your points.

4. Similarily, when someone makes a particular point, you can ask them to elaborate, but they are under no obligation to do so. We are all here in our spare time, which may be scarce - so everybody is always free to choose how much time they would like to spend on a particular discussion. Of course you can always say that unless they provide more info, you won't accept their claim.

4.1. Do not declare yourself the "winner" of a discussion just because your "opponent" is not responding how you asked them to. The joke would be on you.

5. Whatever is being discussed, try not to take anything personally. If the topic is of a nature that is too close to you, so that you can't help getting angry or annoyed when you get confrontend with people thinking differently, it might be best to stay away from the topic altogether.

That's it? That's all?

Nothing about washing your hands after using the washroom or eating with your mouth closed? 

Hi,

Kind of impossible when you got different factions, where anything said or word is an insult. Heck back in the day some 45 years ago, playing soccer with Nigerians and other Africans, was neat and they called each other "nigger" and then we all laughed together and went and got drunk after the game!

Methinks that some folks are so hogtied to their ideas they can't laugh ... 

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ... 3. When you write a lengthy post, you do so at your own risk of it being ignored.  ...

Incorrect. In many ways, it shows the simplistic notion that 2 words are better than Sense and Sensibility, or Moby Dick, Crime and Punishment, Dune, or some other book. I always tend to think that the educational value shows up quickly ... where "length" for them is about "brick" and not value!

If you don't know, care for the difference, how the heck can you appreciate music, in its splendid history of long pieces, instead of 4 and 5 minute cuts? C'mon ... grow up and learn!

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ... 4. Similarily, when someone makes a particular point, you can ask them to elaborate, but they are under no obligation to do so.  ...

Agreed. Although it's easy to tell when some folks reply to a post or two, that they did not bother reading it. Taking one sentence out of context of the whole post is bad English and one would have gotten knocked in school for it in my days!

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ... 5. Whatever is being discussed, try not to take anything personally. ...

Impossible. Try that in many places around this earth ... regardless of where it is! Don't try this in a few countries around the world ... you'll regret it! 

In America, it's a different story. Folks are so tied up to the commerciality that they think the 30 second jingle is it, and the only excitement in their life is the most recent top film that opened to 100 million ..... wow ... it must be good ... with little regards to how much advertising made you think so. The next week the take is only 10 million and you know that it isn't that great ... but you already gave when you went to it ... I call it the church of giving it away for cheap excitement. 

As a writer, and published, and the son of a famous writer published in over 36 languages, there is NOTHING that can be said about posting, writing, painting, playing music that will help ... it doesn't matter, since the only important side and part of it, is your own internal feeling, and how you interpret it and bring it out. To some it's not nice. To others is fine. Heck, all forms of art had that problem during their lifetimes, including composers being lynched and abandoned, as well as writers. Heck, Henri Miller was not appreciate here in America, but he goes to France, and everyone thought he was great! 

Liking, or not liking comes with the territory. It doesn't really bother me, because if it matters to someone and they are intelligent folks they will ask and find out more ... but in some places, the ego is more important then the ID of it all ... remember ... "the father and I are one" ... and it's true, but we choose to stick to graven images, not the reality, or learning about it!

You either appreciate the human spirit, or you find excuses to hate it and bomb it ... it doesn't matter who it is! And that's the saddest truth of it all!

These tips look fine to me, but the most important is of course to keep the PA rules:

https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083" rel="nofollow - Site rules and guidelines

I disagree with almost every point made in the OP.   

But then, of course I do.

1. Be rude, insult people.

1.1. Make fun of people.

2. Tell others what to do.

3. When you write a lengthy post, all other participants of the discussion must read it and respond by an equally lengthy post.

4. When you ask someone to elaborate on a point, they must do so. Failure to elaborate means that you win the argument.

4.1. If the "opponent" rejects the rules you define, you win instantly

5. Whatever is being discussed, go out of your way to take it personally.

There you go ... sound more reasonable to you? 

Actually the OP sounds as much a self-observation as it does advice to others.

But in seriousness, I don't think the guidelines you've laid out are practicably applicable, nor enforceable.   I certainly don't intend to follow them and though I have no desire to hurt someone's feelings, I also have no illusions about political debate.   

'Be polite?'  'Don't tell others what to do or think?'    I mean, isn't that the point?   As far as taking things personally, I'm not living in a war zone or a dictatorship, so if those people who are want to take something personally then they're gonna do that.

1. Put an asparagus in your ear and listen for moonquakes.

2. Eggs are allowed in the discussion. Do not put your knees or kidneys in other people's eggs.

3. Using vitamins is unfair, but you are allowed to argue from inside a hamper.

4. Spreadsheets are welcome, as well as combovers.

5. Farting is permitted, but please give at least 30 seconds advanced notice so that we can prepare for your wrath.

6. No throwing poop, unless you have gloves on.

7. When an impasse occurs, both parties must go into a field and moo for an hour at each other.

8. Rubber duckies are allowed in the bathtub. So are colanders.

9. Bring your own archipelago. 

10. You are only allowed to post a Gish gallop if you use the word "mayonnaise" in it at least 15 times.

11. Postage is due if you roll marbles through a puddle of butter.

12. You are permitted to share soup recipes only after the first posting of the words Uranus, swimsuit, or thermometer.

13. All recliners should be on a leash. If your recliner poops, you must clean up after it. Poopbags are available in the Just for Fun section of the forum.

14. You can save face by offering everyone a pretzel dipping sauce or showing off your favorite Norman Fell t-shirt.

15. Be more like cornmeal. 

16. If your argument comes in a paperback version, please share it with either teeth, walnuts, or photocopier paper.

17. Cereal maps and directions to a functioning toilet are always welcome.

18. Only share your bellybutton lint if it has been immunized.

19. Use your front mouth for talking, your side mouths for producing snow, and your rear mouth for forwarding e-mails.

20. No melching in the belchbox, please.

21. If you have a free wall, please give it to Richard Sanders.

Thank you for your cooperation. 

This thread makes my puppy lipstick say hi.

Favorite?   You mean of four different shirts spanning the years 1969 thru 1977 ?   I don't think I can, they're like children to me.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ it’s not always the intention to take things out of context though, sometimes when you respond to a lengthy post you just don’t want to quote the whole thing.

You're dang right! Sometimes I'm too lazy to read the whole post, but there's a statement near the beginning that catches my eye and I feel an urge to respond. xD Usually this doesn't lead to any misunderstandings or me taking something out of context. Well, sometimes however, it does. :P

and yet, these counterpropositions seems to be the way things go all too often on this forum.

.

It all makes Perfect Sense to me, and Roger Waters appears to agree.  

OK, I'm going to ask, no offence intended, but why do you spend your time thinking up and typing in this stuff (or is it AI-generated)?

I can say, I only quote what I relate to in my answer and what I consider to be the main point, but I always think about whether I get all the context in my quotation. 

Hey! You're melching in the belchbox!

I could certainly wish, I had been treated better, but it's fortunately mostly in the past.

Something else, I'd say there's in general all too little respect for the OPs, which is of course a problem in various ways.

 

I agree. Sometimes, a reply is to a small section of a larger post. Editing the post being replied to makes it clear which specific part of the post is being replied to, as well as reducing the visual clutter on the page. It's only a problem if one is deliberately taking the section out of context for the purpose of attacking a point that was not intended to be made.

 

I also prefer much when others do it, instead of maybe quoting a large text and only relating to a little part of it.

No offense taken. I have a weird sense of humor and get a kick out of inserting gibberish into what are otherwise serious or semi-serious threads. This mostly started when I took a stab at writing my own lyrics and poetry when I was a teenager and has some of its influences from I Am the Walrus and Jon Anderson's stuff. The lyrics eventually were put to music in my own music project which I think I've posted about elsewhere. So, it pre-dates AI and PA. Otherwise, I blame it on Man With Hat.

Oh, the irony!

 

It reminds me of Monty Python's "Dirty Hungarian Phrasebook" sketch:

 

 

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ Well, this thread is about how I think one should discuss. I'm not telling anyone what to do.

This is exactly what the imperative mood is normally used for.

Also, by rather recently having broken about half of these rules and having regularly accused others who had different points of view from yours of having broken some of these, you don't seem to be in the very best position to moderate a discussion on this topic (as valuable it might be).

Hi,

Sadly, as you can see here, there are some folks that don't believe in FREE SPEECH and would rather try to find some kind of this or that ... to make them feel that they can "control" the environment. 

I always thought that the best control was no control at all! But, even in America, FS is not exactly believed when the media sets out to enhance ... "you're fired" ... as a way to ruin people's lives and make sure that said person is not "competing". At that point, the rules of the "game" are no longer FS, but something that should be addressed sooner or later.

I agree with a part of your criticism, Lewian, but I've been thinking of the intention with this thread as a good opportunity to improve oneself - maybe too naively thinking so, but it can still happen. 

Awwww. I was hoping you were trying to tell us the secrets to the universe and the ingredients of Hostess cupcakes in code. I am sooooooooo disappointed 

There are indubitably some strange ideas of "free speech" floating around here. 

Not even that ... the OP was simply trying to formulate what could be good guidelines for anyone, and hoping for constructive criticism/feedback on what other members think is most important. I've already drawn some good conclusions from all the responses so far, so at least to me it has been valuable.

That's good. If even a few people listen then your efforts haven't been for nothing.

Lewian wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_mood" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperative_mood

Yes that's ironic. Now let's move on. If I had kids I would try to teach them not to tell others what to do and how to think as well. Like any sane parent should. If these imaginary kids responded "but dad, now you just told us what to do and how think yourself!" - I would reply with something like "haha oops yes I guess I did, very clever... but children please remember not to tell others what to do and how to think". I'm more interested in hearing whatever issue you have with this very reasonable advise in itself.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: 2. Do not tell others what to say or do, or how to think. You can criticise them as much as you want, or say that you would do it differently, but you are you and they are them. Treat them as fellow human beings who are entitled to making their own decisions.

-And regardless of whatever I think about the issues being discussed*, my impression is that MikeEnRegalia is among the better ones at staying on topic and rarely the first to take things personal (I might be wrong, as I usually only check out non-music discussions by mistake. Because they appear to be are about music. Like Propaganda and Politially Incorrect Prog:). I've never noticed Mike being the first to personally attack others either. While many who seem to get "a pass" from you are far, far worse "rulebreakers", and often very unpleasant in their aggressive way of replying.

*we do seem to be among the few left agreeing that freedom of speech is a common good and well worth protecting - even if that freedom can be used to say something we don't personally approve of .

Sardonic condescenscion ... not a good strategy in any conversation, in my humble opinion.

Let's boil this down to an abstract example ...

Person A says:

"Here's my rules for how I think people should behave: 1. Be polite! 2. ..."

Person B says:

"Be polite!"

Now, which of these persons told others what to do?

Wow, I'd forgotten about that skit. I haven't seen that one in years. Though not at the same level of humor, and unintentional, there was a precursor to this actually published:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_as_She_Is_Spoke

I love that line: "I wish to plead incompetence." 

Before Gorman Thomas had a beard, napkins were ionic and made out of peat bog. Sal Bando will bring you your airplane wheels. Thanks for the interview.

This Tuesday I am going to go to a pet store and squeak dog toys for three hours. It should be a hoot!

Anyway, I appreciate this thread as a very good idea... and bravely done.

I was disappointed to read that your "gibberish" doesn't contain a secret hidden code after spending hours trying to decipher it.  

perhaps you should play it backwards?

Sorry Paul.  I certainly hope it didn't distract you from the several thousand albums you listen to every day. 

This reminds me of an e-mail I sent some colleagues of mine back in the 1990s. It was full of numbers but with spaces in between to make it look like they could have been words. They spent an hour trying to figure it out, but all I sent them was numbers with spaces in between. Oops. 

(5) Now I have some training and even some fun doing confrontative discussion, so you will not always find me peaceful in such exchange. Also I think that the really good stuff will stand if we try our best to make it fall. So I will sometimes try to make "opponent's" arguments fall (the best way for me to learn), and my own behaviour won't necessarily look like some of the things I said above... and it happens that I get carried away or assess a situation and the tone of somebody else or my own wrongly. But then I give myself the chance to find out where I'm wrong, and this helps to get the most out of it.

While many who seem to get "a pass" from you are far, far worse "rulebreakers", and often very unpleasant in their aggressive way of replying.

I'm not giving anyone "a pass", just discussing the behaviour of anyone else in particular is not my topic here (and the "rules" to be broken are not mine anyway, they are Mike's, and that's exactly the thing).

Thank you for pioneering the art of how to not discuss and also for not ejaculating on the furniture on Albanian holidays.

How quaint.

There never has been "free speech', only an arbitrary line which should not be crossed.

It is control of where that line is drawn that people are so invested in, especially politicians and comedians.

I understand that I'm missung a lot of context here, so I'll stay away from all of this like I usually do. But

Lewian wrote: (3) There is no objective threshold for "insulting" and "becoming personal" in discussions. Something that may not be intended as insult can be seen as insult; potentially something may have been stated as insult unconsciously even if the person who said it was not consciously aware of it. Also even without any bad intentions (conscious or unconscious) on one side there can be good reasons to perceive something as insult on the other side (for example because of cultural differences). Also arguing against an opinion held by somebody else can very easily involve personal attack, potentially in a rather subtle and often unconscious manner. People who have no personal involvement may not normally be the best qualified people to discuss something, but people who are personally involved may react in a personal manner.

I know there's no objective threshold for "insulting" and "becoming personal" in discussions. But I don't need objective thresholds - most of the time. By and large I trust my own abilities to tell the difference. Like most things in life objective thresholds are non-existing or irrelevant. Personal/not personal is somehow related - or on a scale. Relatively often from a "Your favorite vocalist sings out of tune" to something in the line of "f**k you, idiot" (and how about adding a "I'll break your nose it we'll ever meet")

& we think differently:

Lewian wrote: (1) A major principle of mine is that we can't convince other people; people can only convince themselves.

The way I see it, if someone provides me with a new perspective that makes me change my mind or think differently, then that person has convinced me. I wouldn't have been changed without that person's input, but probably stayed the same. Something external changed me internally.

https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083" rel="nofollow - https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13083

I was that guy. If you need to wash your dirty laundry in public, at least go all the way.

Well, maybe this was the first time in 16 years on this site that you singled-out and attacked a member a dozen times. There's a first for everything.

I think it's a pity if a thread with such a good topic just get very personal. There has been much violating of PA rules by not so few persons, and I think it would be much more constructive try to prevent that the same will happen in the future.

E120 is a red colouring obtained from the cochineal beetle. Fluid from the beetles is mixed with other substances (e.g. tin) to make it more colour-fast. The colouring is used in various well-known food products — chocolate, yoghurt drinks, etc. — as well as in pharmaceutical products. In order to obtain the colouring, hot water is poured on the insects (after which they are dried), and they are ground and steamed. In order to obtain 1 kg of E120, 155 000 insects are needed.

^ the thread is about how NOT to discuss so i'm demonstrating how NOT to discuss

Too much drama on this site so i'd rather learn about bugs

Weren't you the one preaching about not taking things personally?

Better practice what you preach

Hi,

If you were in America, you would see the media in newspapers say nothing, and instead add articles and materials that confuse matters even more ... if you, AT LEAST, knew their political leanings, as in left or right, you might get a better idea of it all, but it has become about misinformation and not giving a darn about the public and what it is telling them. This was the case with the Covid thing, and it was/is the case with Mr. Trump and it continues on and on with rich folks in congress controlling it all, and specially in some states, some politicians adding anti-abortion rules, that in some cases the public have overruled ... to give you an idea. 

The whole thing is so weird and out of touch with reality ... and what is stranger is that so many American folks won't vote in order to make the changes that make sense. In one state, they have almost 30% of the population being people of color, and they don't all show up to vote, in order to make a difference. In another state, it is like over 30% spanish speaking, but their leaders are not even close to it!

One wonders how, and why, and when ... some things will make sense. And misinformation is not helping ... it is sending folks away instead!

Reminds me of an ex-president in America that joked ... let them all smoke dope! I'll win all the elections! ... now you know the "truth" in many states in America.

FREE SPEECH!!!  Yes!! ....but while keeping the PA rules. 

I guess, most people around here will know what kind of free speech I'm talking about. 

I know that you know that you are a smart man, Silly Puppy.  You know how to craft a post-breaming with plausible deniability.  What bugs me?  I know you're a good man Silly Puppy, and you know what you are doing. You know that you put a bug in Mike's ear.  You know Mike knows what you mean.  Now you know that I know you know. Do know what I mean?  

About violating the PA rules, I'd say, the PA top has the main responsibility that it doesn't happen.

I must be missing something here, as I've really no idea of what Silly Puppy's mention of "E" numbers is supposed to relate to. 

I was testing his reaction to see if he practices what he preaches. He doesn't!

NO, you  took it personally otherwise you WOULD HAVE ignored it. OK, since it bugged you so much i apologize. Obviously you don't like bugs. However i will say you're friggin' wasting your time and spinning your wheels. Nobody will adhere to any rules or respectful dialogue because that hasn't been the pattern so far. Good job trying for sure. You have more patience than i do. I never considered myself trolling but rather showing irreverence to the drama that haunts these forum threads much like progaardvark. I'll tread on your thread no longer, my friend! Cheerio.

I agree, there's been too much drama, and I'd say, that's not least due to too much violating of various PA rules which is of course a problem for different reasons, for instance not good for PA's reputation.

Hi,

I think the American founding daddies had the right idea ... but they did not exactly follow it and eventually it all led into a Civil War of sorts, which was blamed on such ideas as "slavery", and not the Constitution at all. It's been said that it was, in many ways, very naive ... which I don't agree on, however, in this day and age, with 1 million lawyers trying to break the law and the Constitution, I'm not surprised that it's almost impossible to define and specify what "free speech" means ... not to mention that for the last 75 years the American Supreme Court has fiddled and distorted the Constitution left and right, making it even worse and more difficult to interpret. 

Makes one think that the Supreme Court lacks the moral ethics to even consider the issue, is my thought.

 

 

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png

 

It violates free speech when the Government pressures a social media site to cancel you.  It's a violation of free speech when the Government pressures banks to close your accounts.  The Twitter files proved both happen.   

Argentinfonico wrote: I can't believe how little Mike is asking for, and yet some people nag. It's simple: respect for each other and keep order whatever the conversation. It's the basis of any interpersonal relationship. But it seems that the nicer you are, the more they'll call you authoritarian. And what would be good for these people? Stirring plates? We came into the world to disagree and to learn from other realities. Although the truth is in oneself, it is discovered by observing. I think we will all agree that insult can never be the best we can come up with.

Nonsense.

Mike posts things.  Mike gets commentary on those things.  Mike doesn't like the comments.   Mike gets into an argument.   Mike doesn't like how the argument goes.   Mike then complains he's being abused.

No one's buying it.

See what happens when two big guns test their credibility in open discourse.

A championship bout of little or no consequence.

Oh the drama!

Be there, or be uninterested.

Onerous Collaborators

Hi,

Yeah, but nobody reminded Mr. Trump of that and took action ...!!! And the media predilection these days is throw stones until they are dead ... guilty or not!