2000-2003 studio albums: 20 of my faves and 5 more
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Polls
Forum Description: Create polls on topics related to progressive music
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=135148
Printed Date: June 29 2025 at 22:36
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 2000-2003 studio albums: 20 of my faves and 5 more
Posted By: Logan
Subject: 2000-2003 studio albums: 20 of my faves and 5 more
Date Posted: June 27 2025 at 18:21
|
Down but posting again. Felt like I should log-in earlier, but taking the time to post 20 twenty of "the usual suspects for me" albums that I have enjoyed from 2000 to 2003, and the final five are popular albums in the PA chart that I have not got into to give this more variety and be less just about my questionable tastes. Again, multiple choice is not enabled, please vote for just the one album. And if you like any please mention it in a post. Feel free to mention others, but please try to vote for one and mention that in a post if any of these albums are both known and hold any appeal. Air - 10 000 Hz Legend (2001) Aphex Twin - Drukqs (2001) Boards of Canada - Geogaddi (2002) Bohren & der Club of Gore - Sunset Mission (2000) Boris - Flood (2000) Broadcast - The Noise Made By People (2000) The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots (2002) Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven (2000) Kayo Dot - Choirs of the Eye (2003) Motorpsycho - Phanerothyme (2001) The Necks - Drive By (2003) Pram - The Museum of Imaginary Animals (2000) Rachel's - Systems/Layers (2003) Radiohead - Kid A (2000) Secret Chiefs 3 - Book M (2003) Sigur Rós - ( ) (2002) Stereolab - Sound-Dust (2001) Sufjan Stevens - Michigan (2003) Ulver - Perdition City (2000) Woven Hand - Blush Music (2003) Neal Morse - Testimony (2003) Porcupine Tree - In Absentia (2002) Spock's Beard - V Transatlantic - Bridge Across Forever (2002) Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane (2002) ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Replies:
Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: June 27 2025 at 19:47
I went with In Absentia over V with Kid A making my top three. I don't know that Motorpsycho record or The Flaming Lips album and some others. Okay I don't know 13 of these.  ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2025 at 20:15
|
^ Yeah, Absentia for me as well. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 27 2025 at 20:29
Over 50% is a pretty good batting average for this 2000-2003 poll. ;) EDIT: getting confused, I read back on that and I should have said 48 percent. I've been batting less than 50 percent (even less than 48%!) with many of your polls. If I had only listed my favourites (the top 20 with five more I like), then I'm sure that your percentage would have gone down significantly. ;) The top three are not in PA, nor is Sufjan Stevens, and a bunch of these were added to PA in recent times: The Necks most recently. Not sure how much you listen to is outside of PA for these years, but a lot of what I like is what Mike at Awesome Prog might call more Prog adjacent. I'd make a playlist to sample, but I know you favour physical product. By the way, I should try In Absentia again. Frankly, when I bought it in 2004 or 2005 I could not stand it. It was the first Porcupine Tree album I heard. I have heard PT that I liked subsequently, and my tastes have broadened since then. I still don't "get" much Spock's Beard and Neal Morse stuff (there are elements I like and some SB I have quite enjoyed), but then many don't appreciate music I like such as Art Zoyd, Magma, Swans, Faust, Fishmans etc. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Mellotron Storm wrote:Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: June 27 2025 at 21:04
|
I really liked that Kayo Dot title a lot. I like the POS and Sigur Ros. I don't much dig Radiohead, and I haven't heard quite a few of the others. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sQD8uhpWXCw" rel="nofollow - It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...Road Rage Edition |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 27 2025 at 21:43
I like Kayo Dot a lot, although it's mostly been Blue Lambency Downward, Coyote and Hubardo that I would turn to. With Radiohead it wasn't until the release of A Moon Shaped Pool that I would really be getting into the band. Also hearing its unused "Spectre" theme and because I was a huge fan of the Westworld HBO series and loved how "Exit Music (For a Film)" was used in it played a significant role. And then I really explored all of its albums about a year or so ago. Kid A was a grower for me -- love it now. Don't watch if you have not seen it and don't want spoilers: Not that I expect anyone to listen, and I shared this in another topic earlier today, but I made a playlist some time back of a favourite song of mine off each Radiohead LP album, plus "Spectre". I went to a book store not too long ago in Vancouver and they were playing all of OK Computer. At a recent talent show at my son's high school, a girl in a the Beatles tee-shirt played on guitar and sung with another girl "Creep". I appreciate that some of my favourite music is quite mainstream (and I heard Sufjan Stevens playing at the mall quite recently). ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 00:17
| Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane |
Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 00:34
| Don't know Pram but I know Priam. Who knows Priam? Lol. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 05:41
| In Absentia over V and Kid A. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 06:36
|
Very hard to pick just one from this list, went with Radiohead Ahead of The Necks, Secret Chiefs 3, Godspeed, Sigur Ros & Porcupine Tree ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: mathman0806
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 08:02
| Voted for Porcupine Tree over Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Radiohead, Kayo Dot. |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 09:46
|
Had to flip a coin to choose from among the six GREAT albums that I love on this list: Yoshimi Kid A Phanerothyme Choirs of the Eye Sound-Dust ( ) ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: essexboyinwales
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 10:30
|
Transatlantic 😎 ------------- Heaven is waiting but waiting is Hell |
Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 11:26
|
1. Transatlantic - Bridge Across Forever 2. The Flaming Lips - Yohimi Battles the Pink Robots 3. Porcupine Tree - In Absentia 4. Neal Morse - Testimony |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 18:14
|
Transatlantic gets the nod. ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 19:18
|
Love, to like alot: Radiohead - Kid A (2000) - (voted for) Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven (2000) Bohren & der Club of Gore - Sunset Mission (2000) Kayo Dot - Choirs of the Eye (2003) Secret Chiefs 3 - Book M (2003) Broadcast - The Noise Made By People (2000) Pram - The Museum of Imaginary Animals Sufjan Stevens - Michigan (2003) Woven Hand - Blush Music (2003) Rachel's - Systems/Layers (2003) The Necks - Drive By (2003) Aphex Twin - Drukqs (2001) Porcupine Tree - In Absentia (2002) Not heard - or don't know well enough to have an opinion: Boards of Canada - Geogaddi (2002) Boris - Flood (2000) Sigur Rós - ( ) (2002) Stereolab - Sound-Dust (2001) Ulver - Perdition City (2000) Air - 10 000 Hz Legend (2001) Not interested/dislike: Neal Morse - Testimony (2003) Spock's Beard - V Transatlantic - Bridge Across Forever (2002) Pain of Salvation - Remedy Lane (2002) |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 20:05
|
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 20:31
|
^ If every opinion is valid, so is mine. Not interested/dislike is just a normal dismissal of something that's not for me. I don't understand what's problematic about it. My dislike/disinterest isn't snobbery. It's honest and I haven't got the time for any more self censoring just because you are tired of it. Stating what I do not enjoy is as natural part of conversations about any kind art as stating what I do enjoy is. I couldn't care less whether you dislike a band I love - something you do every once in a while. Can't you just ignore me and my opinions? Besides, what is worse: you being very direct in your dislike of me, or me disliking some band? and BTW: I haven't noticed Greg telling others about his dislikes more often than you do yourself. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 22:58
|
A) I don't believe that every opinion is valid as not every opinion is soundly based in logic, fits the evidence, or is based in fact. B) I don't think what art I appreciate is inherently or necessarily better than what another likes. I have consistently stressed the subjective nature of appreciation and have often spoken out against the expression of "good" and "bad" in art. Some things are better for me than others, some things resonate, others don't, but saying it's snobbery implies that I think it superior. I think that that's an uncharitable assumption about my character. What I like is based on what resonates for me and there are a myriad of reasons for that. My interests, my likes and dislikes, reflects on my personality. And sometimes what I dislike in the now I might like in the future, and what I once liked I no longer like. I see nothing wrong in mentioning what one likes and doesn't. Claims of good and bad often irk me. It helps to get to know people' tastes, what appeals, I find, for enjoyable interaction. It helps with recommendations, and I'm interested in finding common ground with people while recognising the differences. I find it to be a far worse type of negativity, discouraging, and a more antisocial display of intolerance in terms of social interaction to say things like "Your snobbery shows and it's disgusting" (that comes off as very mean-spirited to me) than "I don't like Spock's Beard". I won't think less of you if you mention not liking Magma, for instance. I don't think less of Saperlipopette! because he does not appreciate Cardiacs. I know some people seem to take it as a personal attacks when one mentions not liking something. I treat it as normal in sincere conversation. Comments like Will's I find very off-putting, and makes me not enjoy participating in this forum (very negative, very unpleasant and discourteous). It's the kind of really unpleasant thing that he has made me not want to stay on here. It's disheartening, it's very unpleasant, it's sad. I wish we could be more tolerant and accepting when it comes to accepting and expressing differences of tastes and interests. I am a pessimist who does tend to prefer putting more time into focusing on the positive and what I appreciate, and I think I do that, but that does not mean that I think I should feel like I have to keep to myself negative experiences. I don't think you, Will, should have to either. We both should try to consider people's feelings, I think, in how we express ourselves -- demonstrate some empathy and kindness ideally, If my expression comes off as mean-spirited, or insulting, then I apologise to whomever -- often the words and ideas could have been expressed better. But I am not insulting someone by saying that I don't like some art they appreciate, and I don't feel insulted by them expressing the same as to what I like. I think it helps to know what people are into and not into when trying to get to know and understand them, and I genuinely care about people as individuals. I am surprised at the complaint, because I thought, you Will, have been open about your dislikes, and have not shied form negativity (you do comes off as grumpy). And when you have had complaints, seems you often have complaints with me which i have often put down to misunderstandings of intent, I have tried to address them sincerely and explain my perspective, which I had hoped might be appreciated. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 23:29
I value expressing one's negative opinions with well argumented constructive criticism much more than the positive ones. Negativity has a certain aura to it that doesn't let its message through without leaving differing reactions.
------------- 
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 28 2025 at 23:48
My son has expressed how he values such negative commentary with constructive criticism much more than the positive ones. I wish that I always was as mature.
Yep, that sounds right. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Enchant X
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 04:40
Went with the 'Beard' on this one Spock's Beard - V, but what a really good list. 
|
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 07:03
|
Greg, you always state that you enjoy the interaction with forum members, but you enjoy it more with those that share your tastes. Fair enough. You have mentioned before that some of my posts are negative and discourteous, and you also told me in a post you no longer wanted to interact with me because my posts were bringing you mental stress. You mention being tolerant and accepting when it comes to differences of tastes, yet in the "Five best albums for someone brand new to prog" you weren't accepting of my mentions of Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, or Kansas. You simply stated you would have disliked them as a noob and still dislike them. I was trying to be helpful by choosing albums that were accessible. If you noticed I didn't mention Allan Holdsworth, because that is not for a noob. Sap, also in the same thread said he would have lost all credibility for suggesting Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, Marillion or Kansas to a noob. He further stated he didn't like any of them. Were you trying to be funny with that credibility statement? Also, Sap you mention I have been very direct in my dislike of you as a human being. I don't ever recall that. Care to tell me when that was and what I said exactly? As you requested, I will ignore your opinions, and you should give me the same courtesy. As for being tolerant of others opinions I agree, Greg. However, when I said I didn't like "Rock Bottom" you wrote a thesis on why everyone should. You also called me out on some words I used in my review of "In A Silent Way". I don't see that as being tolerant. Yes, we can always improve, and yes I'm grumpy at times, but I don't think I've ever been mean or cruel to any forum member. Unfortunately, I've seen that from both of you. Anyway, I wish you both peace and the best of health. |
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 08:25
But seriously if you can't stomach me writing that I do not like-or care for a band that you love - my best advice is simply to not read future Saperlipopette!-posts. I think how I phrase it is a mild, non-offensive way of sharing such opinion. What I enjoy - and do not enjoy are two sides of the same coin for me. I still stay away from every single thread/topic regarding bands and artists I know are not my bag, and I focus at least 90-95% on the positive and the music I love. I did remember trying to explain out different approaches after several complaints about my way of commenting though:
|
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 11:42
Understandably I have tended to converse more with people who share more points of interest as I enjoy talking to others who share the same interests and also feel enthusiastic about such things. I also really enjoy talking with people who I feel are accepting of me, who I feel that I can talk to easily and feel comfortable with, and who I feel understand me and can appreciate aspects of me. I wish I was more comfortable with people generally, but I actually am quite a shy introvert (I do have social anxiety, but am good at hiding it in real life). Other than my kids, my wife is my favourite person, she is my best friend and biggest supporter, and she does not enjoy most of the music I listen to. We have both shared a love of so-called art-house film and it helps to have interests in common. But I respected her immediately because I saw that she is kind, accepting and good. That she was not into Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin was hardly a deal-breaker. You actually are one of the people who I have enjoyed talking to at times, which is why I might have thought this rift would have seemed easier to get over and become water under the bridge. I genuinely do not like to hold grudges. I have found quite a few of your posts to be negative and discourteous, I too have written negative and discourteous posts, we can all have bad days. I do feel like you have made posts that have been attacking of my person (my character), and that you have assumed the worst of me. And when I have tried to explain I did not think you tried to understand. Yes, I was upset with you and I also was dealing with some nasty issues with my sibling after my mother's death. Believe me, he was far more unpleasant to my wife and I than you have ever been to me (and my wife recently loaned his daughter 15,000 dollars which we may never get back because he would not even help out his own child -- I actually was angry with my wife for not conferring with me). I said at that time when I was very upset that I did not want to communicate any more with you partially out of frustration because you did not seem to understand what I was saying and I found you continued to be unpleasant. By the way, I have said that to my wife too at times. Sometimes we say things when we are frustrated and upset, but then we get over it. I think that was after making a joke about preferring Parisian croissants to Topeka tarts in reference to Magma and Kansas I've never had a Topeka tart, it was a stupid stab at light-hearted humour. I wish I'd said Kobaian kroissants. I had a wonderful time in Paris some years ago, and, maybe oddly, the buttery croissants were a highlight for me (Magma I believe was formed in Paris, and not Kobaia) As for that topic mentioning Spock's Beard and some others, it wasn't so "simply". I was much more explanatory than that, my first post was not as detailed as I wish it had been (sometimes it's a lack of time) and did go into details and try to explain my perspective and points in depth especially later. I want people to understand what I think, and to refine my own thinking in conversation with others. That does require actively listening to each other, and it does help often to avoid making assumptions. It can be easy to jump to the wrong conclusions, but it also can be easy to sincerely and cordially talk things out and clear up misconceptions if people are willing to engage and listen while avoiding “prejudice”. The point that I wanted to make is that there is no five bands that would appeal to everyone and it is better to take the individual tastes into account. I mentioned as examples of bands/albums that had been mentioned that had not done it for me, and I mentioned other bands I like that might not do it for others. And much like I disagree with your assertion here that every opinion is valid (and stated why), I disagreed with your assertion there that "Swans and Magma would be more disliked by a prog noob than those you dislike". It surely depends on the noob. I generally try to be careful when making claims and avoid making such absolutist statements. "However, when I said I didn't like "Rock Bottom" you wrote a thesis on why everyone should." Are you sure that I said that everyone should? Excuse me if I don't accept your claim without proof. Link please to see specific claims and context, otherwise I will look it up, but I would hope you would have double-checked to ensure your accuracy. I find that very hard to believe and would appreciate a link to where I claimed that as I do not believe that nor can I imagine ever believing that. The burden of proof is considered to be on the one who makes claims. And I don't remember ever claiming that everyone should like it even as a joke or by mistake (sometimes we misspeak and further clarification is required). It is an album that I like and appreciate very much (and I believe that one can appreciate things without liking them) and I went into details on what I find it special and significant and why I do not think it should be dismissed easily. As for it being a "thesis", I actually put effort into trying to explain my perspective. I'm fine with people not enjoying it, but I would hope that people would recognise the circumstances surrounding that album, the hardships that Wyatt was going through, and the love of others when it came to helping him out with the album. He had fallen out of a window and broken his back, literally hitting rock bottom. It's like Bowie's Blackstar which also gets me in the "feels". I understand people not liking it, to each their own tastes, but I have wanted to explain why it is special to me and why I think casually dismissing it as, say, “bad” bothers me. I would consider the circumstances, but that doesn't mean that I would tell someone that they should like the album. It is obvious to me that you are not understanding me and that does make dialectic very hard, even torturous. As for my ideas on tolerance generally, I believe that tolerance should have its limits. I believe in tolerance within reason (and hopefully the reasoning is sound, and generally comes from a humane perspective). It is clear to me that you often misunderstood my points and my jokes, I do think you miss the context, have missed out on nuance (my thinking is often not black and white), and have taken an uncharitable position when it comes to your claims of intent and actions from me. I wish I could have more pleasant conversations with you where neither of us feel attacked. I would rather have conversations with you that focus on things that we both feel positively about (music or otherwise). We have many differences but also interests in common and when you have focused on our differences I have wanted to focus on our common interests. I have enjoyed many of our interactions and I would rather more of those. I do think you often don't read and think things through carefully enough, or perhaps I'm just really unclear. I would like to think that I'm a reasonably intelligent and articulate poster (less so as I get older, I know) and hope to communicate, but I recall an articulate poster who seemed to really hate me (I felt bullied by) who told me that he could barely understand a word I said. I suspect that it was not the words themselves so much (we all have access to online dictionaries) but rather the way I ordered the words. Weird to be attacked by someone who claims that they can't even understand you as he would. But I am prone to being too much of a literalist. Misunderstandings are common, but hopefully reasonably tolerant and intelligent people can be willing to try to talk things through in a rational and cordial manner. Edited for a garbled sentence, that does happen to me especially when I try to be detailed. And I had my son talking to me while I was typing it out. My kids are extroverts and really big talkers. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 16:10
|
Well, I like a lot of others, but my vote goes to The Noise Made By People (I've got to say that I see this album head and shoulders over the rest of Broadcast's catalogue, chances are they are more even in your Greg's appreciation?). Should I mention anything else? Uh oh, there's the "if I mention this I should also mention that" thing, but just for the sake of it I think that Drukqs is mightily strong and rarely mentioned here (other than albums like In Absentia, which is also mightily strong but generally appreciated, and even Michigan probably has a good number of mentions in the forum now). Also Sunset Mission even though I learnt in the last year or so that Bohren & Der Club of Gore have a few admirers here. There are at least three further albums here that I really love but won't mention. Any guess? ------------- I make typos so you see I'm not a machine, but I may be a machine pretending to not be a machine. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 17:18
|
^ Pram, Boards of Canada, Air, Godspeed? I’m posting on my crappy phone in the car while my wife and son go around the mall, I could only take so much (sensory issues). I mention because it’s hard to type and read. But then I remember text to speech. Will, I guess this is the topic where you called Rock Bottom “pretty pretty bad” in response to Paul, where you claim that I wrote a thesis saying that everyone should like Rock Bottom. I am not seeing that and certainly do not believe that. I disagree with your claim that it is really, really bad if meant as an objective statement of quality , but also recognise that it might be bad for you. I am not claiming you or others “should” like it. See https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134710&PID=6181158#6181158" rel="nofollow - here CLICK . Do people think I was unreasonable or rude in how I presented that? Be interested to see if others have the same interpretation as Will. If that’s the case then I am very badly miscommunicating. Still hard to compose on my phone. By the way I actually don’t like calling albums bad as I said before and find saying I don’t like something more polite and often sensible. Maybe you referred to it as pretty bad out of sour grapes, and that is not very nice either. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 17:33
Actually there are even at least five albums I love other than those already mentioned. The Pram album would probably have rank 4 among these and Godspeed in the top 3. Despite your best efforts you never got me into Air, and I know and like a number of Boards of Canada albums but I think I've never heard this one. So we have still 2 out of 3 missing and 3 out of 5.  ------------- I make typos so you see I'm not a machine, but I may be a machine pretending to not be a machine. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 17:50
|
Never got you into Air you say. Now that was a big failure of mine. 😉. And that is my second fave BoC studio album. Sigur Ros is likely, maybe Ulver, Rachel’s, Woven Hand? Maybe something even from the bottom five I have not got into, but also would not call bad or even pretty pretty bad. If you like those good on ya, to each their own tastes and interests as I often intone. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 17:54
|
OK I tell you, yeah, Sigur Ros and then (of course ) Kid A in the top 3 and The Necks complete the top 5. Plus of course those already mentioned. Actually the Secret Chiefs 3 is also great. I don't know the Woven Hand and Rachel's. Ah, some more listening to do. ------------- I make typos so you see I'm not a machine, but I may be a machine pretending to not be a machine. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 18:10
|
Oh of course Radiohead, forget you had not mentioned that — hard to post read AND think in this hot stuffy car. Did not know you liked and knew that The Necks, or maybe I did and forgot. A good reason to carefully read back over things for accuracy as it can be so easy to misremember details. Details matter, the devil is in them, but I digress back to my response to Will. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: June 29 2025 at 18:50
You agree that tolerance should have its limits (tolerance within reason) and some opinions are more tolerable (and more sensible, comport more to reality, can be better justified, and are generally more valid) than others? And I hope you agree that discussing and dissecting opinions can be useful, both your own opinions and others. Of course there is importance in understanding the opinion/position/perspective for it to be a really meaningful exercise, and to try not to misrepresent others opinions/ beliefs and statements. I hope you also appreciate exploring ideas, evaluating and re-evaluating beliefs. I posted that link a few posts up for context, but here is what I wrote after you called Rock Bottom “pretty pretty bad” in response to Paul. Which has a more negative and judgmental feel to me than saying I don’t like it. Note that I also was responding to Paul as you were and he has been quite harsh I would say in his appraisals of both Rock Bottom and Blackstar. He has some strong opinions and I disagree with Paul on many issues, and I agree on others. We tend to express ourselves (share ideas) differently. If by thesis you mean long, it's not long by my standards (or by the standards of my work), EDIT: And here is the link again, context is important and sure would be sad to misrepresent the actual "discussion": https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=134710&PID=6181158#6181158" rel="nofollow - Your one and two star album ratings?
Where did I say everyone should like it or even imply that? I wrote that people can and will like what they like. I was sharing my feelings and it was sincere and came from my heart (even if it is a "disgusting" heart). I’m fine if people don’t like it, but I will explain why I appreciate it and don’t see it as bad. Is it wrong for me to share that, a less worthy forum commentary than "it's pretty pretty bad"? And even if one does not appreciate the results I would have hoped that some could have felt something sympathetic about the situation behind the recording. Here is what I wrote in the text (most of the rest of my post) of my post (there was more to my post than the "thesis" (intended hyperbole?) above as I covered several things) where you shared an opinion (and list before) in a discussion topic. I disagreed with a claim you made in your lowly rated In a Silent Way review. I find that was fairly relevant and I think I addressed it fairly reasonably.. It came after responding to your frank, if honest and thought out, comment on Rock Bottom. Is it intolerant to disagree and have a different perspective and to share that in an discussion about our own and two star ratings?
So you entered a discussion topic about low ratings and then commenting on an aspect of your review that justifies ratings is intolerant? Okay I know you were playing on the ratings descriptions maybe in fun. I’m fine with you not liking In a Silent Way, but yet again you made a claim that I disagree with and how can say what is essential to my collection? It is either not a sensible opinion or it is dishonest, I think. Either way, I don't think it's valid (to use your term). Or maybe it's just really badly expressed. Or I do think it was in fun based on the ratings descriptions. Still, I took it seriously and mentioned why I disagreed. Misconceptions are easy, sarcasm and humour can be hard to read. Just ask the Topeka tart. Is any of that that I wrote really worse or less civil than (as you posted earlier in this topic):
And are you as critical of people who dislike the same things you dislike and call pretty pretty bad (including yourself)? That was your example of an exchange where you took issue with me and made claims that I know don't comport with reality (with my thinking, and therefore I do not value your opinions (your interpretation) when it comes to those claims, including that it is snobbery when I don't think what I like is superior and often talk about matters of taste. It's up to you to prove such claims, but it's a very uncharitable interpretation. You find it disgusting and I find your words, your claims depressing and not sensible. With some people there is no point in trying to have good faith, sincere and reasonable conversation. Maybe you think that I am that person. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
