Prog Recommendations/Featured albums - Starless and Bible Black open discussion

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Starless and Bible Black open discussion

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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
Forum Description: Make or seek recommendations and discuss specific prog albums
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30939
Printed Date: August 08 2025 at 08:22
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Topic: Starless and Bible Black open discussion

Posted By: lucky_man123
Subject: Starless and Bible Black open discussion
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 20:42

I got SABB (King Crimson) a month or two ago from the library and still don't know what to think. I love it, but I don't understand it at all.

So, I want to know what everyone else thinks. If you have the album, please tell me what you think of it, what your favorite tracks/moments are, etc.

Here are some of my ideas:

The band is improvising A LOT. It surprised me how spontaneous the album is.
I read on Wikipedia that most of the album was mixed from live shows. Is this true? ("King Crimson" entry, search for the phrase "starless and bible black" on the page)
The band shows a lot of Classical influence in some of these songs (Bartok, mostly). In Lament, Wetton plays notes in the whole tone scale, a common aspect of Bartok's music.
John Wetton is playing Funk bass! In songs like We'll Let You Know, he actually does a bunch of slaps and pops that I've never heard KC do ever.
I wonder how this compares with LTIA or Red. It seems crazily improvised, but very loud. It doesn't seem like it's in the middle though. It sounds like a crazier version of LTIA (the instrumentals, mostly), not a transition to Red.

Replies:

Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 21:16

I personally think its a peak for the band, very bold in terms of risk taking and experimentation, I think it requires a lot of listens to grow on you, but I think it really captures the spirit of this period of King Crimson, and in the end after it had grown on me I actually prefer it to Larks Toungue, I think this album is a little misunderstood, and requires an more patient and open mind rather than a more rash decision to rrate it, I think it is far more experimental and progressive than subsequent releases that came out that I've heard by them.

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Posted By: Pulse
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 21:37

lucky_man123 wrote:

I read on Wikipedia that most of the album was mixed from live shows. Is this true? ("King Crimson" entry, search for the phrase "starless and bible black" on the page)

Yes that is true. I believe the original live versions of Trio and Starless and Bible Black are on Night Watch.

Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 21:52

I think it's a fantastic album, and a testament to the power of KC's onstage improv. I have always been a fan of Wetton with KC, both his vocals and his bass, and his best moment is Starless and Bible Black. The Wetton-era KC is my favorite lineup, and this is their strongest moment. A truly classic record.

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Posted By: Mr Krinkle
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 21:54

Probably my favorite Crimson album (no wonder if you look at my avatar!). Also the first one that I listened from this period, and I still like it from start to finish.

Yes, almost 70% of the material comes from live recorded performances. "We'll let you Know"(Crimsofunk!), "Trio" (a really beautiful one), "The Mincer" and "Starless and Bible Black" came from pure improvisation.

Fracture it's a superb composition from Fripp. It's nice to hear the precission and raw energy displayed by the band in this track, as well as the pure enjoyement in its playing (you can hear someone, maybe Wetton, screaming Woow!! in the middle of the song). Also, parts of The Night Watch are live.

Lament and The Great Deceiver are totally recorded in the studio (at least I think so).

Another thing that I like fom this album is the engineering, I prefer its sound rather than LTIA or Red

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"...I like the way the music goes...there's a few good guys who can play it right..."

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 22:14

The Night Watch and Trio is one of the most beautiful and tear jerking moments on the album. Frakture is probably the best song btw.

oh and if you want more of the funk from this era of the band, check out their live material from that era. preferably The Great Deciever

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http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm

Posted By: Asyte2c00
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 22:32

Roughly a week ago, someone posted a Starless and Bible Black thread, dicussing the highs and lows of this mediocre album.

If you search you can read more responses about this album, however, I decided to cut and paste my response from the other thread becasue I belive me comments are as relevent here as they were in the other thread

My Comments:

"Great Deceiver" - Overrated

"Trio" - sounds like a sound check gone awry

and the the title track is pretentious

The only redeeming aspect of Starless and Bible Black is "Fracture." This is coming from someone who has listened to it six times. I know many of you have listened to it more than that, but still six times and no cigar?

Did I miss something, or is it just me?

Ironically, Wetton era is my favorite era of KC, musically. Sinfield-era lyrically for obvious reasons.

Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: November 10 2006 at 23:43

You missed something. WTF.

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https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection.

Commissions considered.

Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 03:16

I'll have to agree: Fracture is the high-point of the album for me too. Each time the track kicks in I check to see if the volume is at maximum power. Big smile

However, I disagree on the album as being mediocre. I think it's upthere with LTIA and Red, just a little bit les focused. But sometimes, that's just what makes it so beautiful.

Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 04:00

This album contains one of the best KC tracks ever - "THE NIGHT WATCH"!!!

Another highlight is definetely "Fracture"

hm...and these two tracks are probably the most listened by me

I really dislike "Great Deciever" - I see the point,but I just don't like it."Lament" is also a matter of mood - I don't know whether I like or dislike it."Trio" is nice but I see no direction in its progression.As for other tracks - there were better improvisations from that era,just to mention
"The Golden Walnut"

Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 05:19

Its a very uneven album IMO, there are some really good tracks and theirs some pretty dull stuff going on their. It was an interesting decision to make an album that half of it is live improvs, could have been much better though.

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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Posted By: M. B. Zapelini
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 05:40

"Starless..." is a great album, but "Larks..." and "Red" are even greater IMHO.

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"He's a man of the past and one of the present"
PETER HAMMILL

Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 07:30

"Trio" and "Fracture" are amazing (The Night Watch versions).

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http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music!

"THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp

Posted By: flaxton
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 09:56

i think out of all the wetton albums starless is the worst, i find it rather disjointed. still a lot better than a lot of other music though.

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flaxton

Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 12:06

I cannot stand King Crimson's improvisations. I think improvisation should be limited to solos. Improvising a whole song just sounds so unstructured and boring to me.

Posted By: omri
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 14:11

I wrote here a year ago that it took me years to get into this album (well, heared, did'nt understand, left aside and then after many years heared it again and fell in love) when I allready had LTIA and Red and loved both of them.

I think there are many different styles in this album :

Ballads - The night watch and Lament, the former is excellent, the second just very nice.

Jazzy - Trio and We'll let you know that both are very nice IMO

Metal - The great deceiver which I like very much

Improvisation - Starless and bible black which is IMO the harder to understand here.

Epics - Fracture and The mincer. While the first is highly appreciated (and for good reasons) the second is mostly neglected and I think it's another great track.

So, I would give this album 5 stars but Red and LTIA I like just a tiny bit better.

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omri

Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 14:21

It's sure a weird album, but very rewarding once you really get it. KC's improv stuff is crazy.

Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 17:54

First of all I want to say that SABB, is a great album but deffinitly the weakest of the trilogy...cause the other two are masterpieces

The band is improvising A LOT. It surprised me how spontaneous the album is. It is spontaneos in some aspects, msotly in the instrumental improv...but the resto of the songs, specially Fracture and the Night watch are extremly worked, nothing happens just because in this two! Fripp really sat down and wrote here jejeje
I read on Wikipedia that most of the album was mixed from live shows. Is this true? ("King Crimson" entry, search for the phrase "starless and bible black" on the page) This is true, the improvs are from an Amsterdam show made in 1974 before the realse of the album while touring the LTIA album. This shows would be released as a live album in 1997, called the Night watch and ist among the band best live outputs (if not the best)
The band shows a lot of Classical influence in some of these songs (Bartok, mostly). In Lament, Wetton plays notes in the whole tone scale, a common aspect of Bartok's music. Probably true, Fripp is quite the Bartok fan, and its not only in this album where you can hear his influences, even ITCOTCK some have spottet some Bartok infleunces here and there
John Wetton is playing Funk bass! In songs like We'll Let You Know, he actually does a bunch of slaps and pops that I've never heard KC do ever. Wetton was great on record, but he truly shines live! Maybe the msot powerful bass player ever! At least in Crimson he was!
I wonder how this compares with LTIA or Red. It seems crazily improvised, but very loud. It doesn't seem like it's in the middle though. It sounds like a crazier version of LTIA (the instrumentals, mostly), not a transition to Red. I would not say its a trnsition, the three albums are very different one from the others, each has his own identety. I think in SABB the band wanted to achive some sort of balanced album, with shorter studio tracks and longer live instrumentals...maybe they thought this would be the best way to define Crimson!

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"You want me to play what, Robert?"

Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 18:03

Sasquamo wrote:

I cannot stand King Crimson's improvisations. I think improvisation should be limited to solos. Improvising a whole song just sounds so unstructured and boring to me.

Ahhh my friend...some day youll get it, and say...what the f**k did I say that time about improvs?

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"You want me to play what, Robert?"

Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: November 11 2006 at 22:11

I don't know, all the improvised songs sound like random atmospheric noodling to me. Songs need some sort of pre-thought structure for improvisation to work out. Listen to jazz to look at how great improvisation sounds when there is some kind of structure to begin with. KC improvisations don't have structure making them unmemorable and boring to me.

Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: November 12 2006 at 00:41

3/4 of this album is just wasted recording time. Night watchman is the highlight

Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: November 12 2006 at 06:35

smithers wrote:

3/4 of this album is just wasted recording time. Night watchman is the highlight

Totally agree

It's just a group of musicians going into a studio and recording music as they just make it up on the spot! There is absolutely nothing clever about it. People try and excuse this whole mess of an album saying it was experimentation blah, blah, blah...well, I say poppycock! If that's experimentation, then I hear it down at my local jazz club every week and played more effiecently!

Absolute rubbish IMO! This album was a complete waste of talent!

Posted By: omri
Date Posted: November 12 2006 at 14:26

Interesting.

Some here think that if they do'nt like it than it is rubbish.

In this place even I feel modest (and that's something I never dreamed could be said to describe me).

Well, I love it. You do'nt have to !

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omri

Posted By: billbuckner
Date Posted: November 12 2006 at 15:13

Progger wrote:

smithers wrote:

3/4 of this album is just wasted recording time. Night watchman is the highlight

Totally agree

It's just a group of musicians going into a studio and recording music as they just make it up on the spot!

This isn't even factually accurate. Confused

Posted By: smithers
Date Posted: November 12 2006 at 19:08

Not a fan of Starless really. But Larks and Red are solid albums though. But I wouldn't call them great albums

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 14 2006 at 09:57

Mr Krinkle wrote:

Probably my favorite Crimson album (no wonder if you look at my avatar!). Also the first one that I listened from this period, and I still like it from start to finish.

Lament and The Great Deceiver are totally recorded in the studio (at least I think so).

Another thing that I like fom this album is the engineering, I prefer its sound rather than LTIA or Red

good post.
My love is evenly split between Starless and Red though

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 14 2006 at 22:03

smithers wrote:

3/4 of this album is just wasted recording time. Night watchman is the highlight

for me.. not in same boat as LTiA.. but enjoy it, and listen to it, more than Red. Another 'classic' prog album that I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: December 14 2006 at 22:10

I prefer S&BB to Red, but Red is the better album.

There's just somethibg about S&BB I really like.

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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: December 15 2006 at 11:16

This album has really divided opinion! It's a great album although it doesn't have the cohesion of Red.

I didn't know that many of the tracks were improvs for over 20 years but that doesn't bother me, I like improvised music. Obviously some people don't.

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 15 2006 at 17:02

Improvisation is fine, but if you just walk in and say, "OK, F minor, let's start," it just sounds lame to me. I need some main melody in a song, and if there are any in the improv songs on that album, then they I sure can't tell. I'm not sure they even have any set chord changes they're going through. Sitting down and improvising music like this is easier than orchestrating an actual song.

I love improvising, but not this kind. Jazz has the kind of improvising I'm looking for. If some skilled jazz musicians decided to improvise a whole song, they would first outline the chord changes they were going to play in, and someone would come up with a melody off the top of his head, not just start playing like this.

Posted By: Witchwoodhermit
Date Posted: December 15 2006 at 18:06

Sasquamo- Improvisation is fine, but if you just walk in and say, "OK, F minor, let's start," it just sounds lame to me. I need some main melody in a song, and if there are any in the improv songs on that album, then they I sure can't tell. I'm not sure they even have any set chord changes they're going through. Sitting down and improvising music like this is easier than orchestrating an actual song.

I love improvising, but not this kind. Jazz has the kind of improvising I'm looking for. If some skilled jazz musicians decided to improvise a whole song, they would first outline the chord changes they were going to play in, and someone would come up with a melody off the top of his head, not just start playing like this.

Very well put. The improvised Crimson work, post Sinfield, has always left me flat. I am listening to more of it, Larks, Starless and Red, but I honestly can't find what people see in it. My biggest complaint is that it seems so repetative and directionless. Compared to the depth of their earlier works, Crimsons mid 70's output sounds quite exhausted.

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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.

Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: December 15 2006 at 20:08

Just so everybody knows, I like King Crimson, they're awesome when they compose their music, just not when they improvise, which is unfortunately a little too much. Am I the only one that feels King Crimson made too many slow, soft, ballads? I think they really rocked high-energy songs like 21st Century Schizoid Man, Great Deceiver, and One More Red Nightmare. It's a shame they didn't make more songs like that. Is some of their later stuff more like this? I only have the older KC albums.