"Overrated" ... a contradiction in terms?
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Topic: "Overrated" ... a contradiction in terms?
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Subject: "Overrated" ... a contradiction in terms?
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 06:26
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Inspired by the recent Pink Floyd discussion (DSoTM vs. WYWH) I ask: How can any album be "overrated" ... or "underrated"? Most people simple mean by "overrated" that *in their opinion* the album should have a lower average rating. That's quite presumptuous, as - especially for albums with many reviews/ratings - they're essentially saying that they know better than all the others. They're saying "hey guys, you all submitted wrong ratings!". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Replies:
Posted By: Ounamahl
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 07:01
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None can be over- or underrated, both words are just derived from people's opinion to express it stronger with one word. Well of course it pisses someone who doesn't like SEPTB or CTTE to see it in the top, but you just have to face the facts... ------------- This is an electrified fairytale |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 07:04
i think you meant to say the exact opposite. on the rest, i basically agree with you; still, i think this kind of rejection is much more personal and less of an evaluation. most of those saying X is overrated actually don't LIKE it, and sometimes others liking and playing X a lot makes them anxious and angry. that's just bad character. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 07:31
^ some might say "overrated" because they don't like it, true. But I also think that some think that it's objectively bad, and that those who submitted a higher rating made a mistake and should reconsider their opinion. And that's what I consider to be presumptuous. It's also possible that those who don't agree with the average are wrong. Edit: I fixed my mistake in the first post - thanks for pointing it out! ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 07:36
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I think most people use the terms overrated and underrated as a simple way to say "I disagree with the majority", though of course, sometimes it does come across as people saying "your all wrong". ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Paradox
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 07:49
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^Indeed. ------------- 
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 07:49
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this should be clear: you can DIASAGREE with one's OPINION, but you can't DISAGREE with one's TASTE. you can SHARE one's TASTE, or you may not, but that doesn't imply AGREEMENT/DISAGREEMENT. one should always look for that before reacting to some other's statement. it would make life much easier. unfair presumptions could thus be avoided. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Masque
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 08:33
Though some bands do sell a million copies before the first note is even heard, those bands you will usualy find being sold in stores like Kmart as far as overrated goes I do feel this term is acceptable in some cases. The Big Machine has already rated much of what comes out Tools 10,000 days is a good example of that.  ------------- |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 09:23
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everything that anyone ever types or says is some kind of a formation of their own opinion mostly we deal with euphemisms(spelling?) to tell others how we feel about music we dislike. ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: ResidentAlien
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 09:38
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Well, since I'm one of the ones who expressed the belief that DSotM is over-rated, I think I should defend the statement. Dark Side is a fantastic album, I love it. I don't think it deserves to be awarded a lower rating than it has. What I do feel is that other albums by the band certainly deserve equal, if not greater distinction. Dark Side is a great album that is as culturally significant as it is musically significant. But there are other Floyd albums (i.e. Meddle) that are more musically diverse and just as good if not better than DSotM. So yes, I feel it's quite easy to make a case that an album, or anything else is over-rated. |
Posted By: Trickster F.
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 10:06
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I never use the word 'overrated', it is extremely overrated, I think. ------------- sig |
Posted By: UtUmNo1
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 11:02
| 'Overated' and 'pretentious' are loaded words which are better of un-used in forums such as this. |
Posted By: tdbark
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 11:39
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Agreed, Over-rated is a term that is only based on opinion... and I would like to see the word pretentious stricken from the English language because of its misuse when critics write about prog rock. ------------- Twenty men crossing a bridge into a village, are twenty men crossing twenty bridges into twenty villages. Wallace Stevens |
Posted By: jalas
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 11:41
| Right on! you're right. I have to stop using those terms. we are just here to help each other appreciate the music. Some people see things others can't and that's what reviews are for. They are so that we can all learn to find something to appreciate in the music. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 11:50
Personally when I use the words overrated (overated or over-rated ), I generally think that the album is generally considered a bit too highly by the masses (who tend to want to reach a large consensus by adopting one oeuvre and highlighting it as a universal chef d'oeuvre) who are not aware enough of other oeuvres around the same genre that might be much better. Not necessarily used negatively, I automatically think that in general this means: yes, it is good but XXXX is better
Under-rated generally is easier to pinpoint as overlooked and often-ignored. Generally it is used positively ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 11:54
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Sean Trane laying down the law I agree with you Hughes ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 11:58
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What's overrated in one person's opinion can very well be underrated in
another person's opinion. We can't escape opinions, but does that
really matter? |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 12:25
Thanks for telling that joke before I did...you piece of  !!! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 12:26
Well said ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 12:56
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As Sean put it, it might just be that overrated means that album gets TOO MUCH ATTENTION, and the public will not move forward [or backward] in that band's catalogue, although there are other albums that deserve as much, if not more, attention. Underrated works in pretty much the same way. |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 13:18
as far as I'm concerned, the "overrated/underrated" words have some attributes, meanings, consequences etc:
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: November 14 2006 at 14:38
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I don't like the word over-rated and I agree with everyone that said that they use this for their own opinions. A good example is DSoTM. I like that album, but many people just say is over-rated. Now the word under-rated is the one I prefer and I don't have problem with. They're use in a good way in that saying that there are some obscure bands that deserve more attention. ------------- 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 15 2006 at 09:04
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Again, this over-rating stuff must be compared to what the masses think , not to a single person whois not representative per se since he is a single opinion.
That's exactly what I meant  ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: November 15 2006 at 22:54
Look, what you're saying might be true if everyone used words exactly how they appear in the dictionary. The words overrated and underrated always come with the opinion attached. As far as I'm concerned, saying "In my opinion Led Zeppelin is overrated" is the same as saying "Led Zeppelin is overrated." If I applied your reasoning to another "implied opinion" word like "best," look what happens. When someone says "Shaquille O'Neal is the best basketball player ever," do you say, "Hey! I think Michael Jordan is the best ever, and by saying Shaq's the best you just called my opinion invalid!" Of course not. There's nothing wrong with me saying "I think DSOTM is overrated-it should have only star." It's my opinion, it's not like I'm saying "Look at all the idiots that gave DSOTM five stars-it should have one." |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 15 2006 at 23:09
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: November 15 2006 at 23:10
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^^nice ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:07
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The term really bugs me!
 The way it tends to be used here really means "I don't like this popular thing -- it's not nearly as good as the rest of you claim to think it is." It is sheer arrogance to presume that other people's pleasure in a piece of music is inferior, or less warranted, than your own lack of pleasure. People need to realize that taste is individual, and from the heart -- it is not calculated.
I also don't like the way "best" and "worst" are tossed around here, especially in polls. I find them, and the "O" word to be rather juvenile -- I much prefer polls that ask "which do you prefer" (or something like that), because their thoughtful wording acknowledges that all opinions are equally valid and genuine, and that "one man's trash is another's treasure." ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:13
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If pleasure cannot be calculated, why then do we rate music using a five star system? Seems pretty calculated to me. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:55
Ratings are no "calculations", even on my website with more than 20 steps. It's just a way of saying "I like X more than Y" in a way which enables a computer system to calculate averages. These can then be used to compile top lists ... and these can be valuable tools to find other albums which may be worth investigating. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 02:58
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I see, I see. But even that can be called calculation in a way. -------------
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:12
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Whenever I use the term overrated, it does not mean I dislike an album. Often I greatly enjoy the album in question (which is often, but not always, the fans favourite), but other albums by the same artist, I feel are better. An example: I believe Peter Hammill - Nadir's Big Chance is overrated. I enjoy the album a lot, but it's not my favourite. I feel other albums by Hammill are better than this album. It's just my opinion though and it means no disrespect to how others feel about the album. -------------   
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:12
We are giving our personal opinions in our reviews, and we have no choice but to use those stars if we want to review here.
 I have long stated that I would prefer NOT to have to assign an absolute, mathematical value to works of art. Many fine professional music reviews are written without any accompanying numerical ratings. I also really dislike the attached descriptors ("essential," "masterpiece," etc.) because though they perforce accompany my review, they are not my words, and force me to "say" the same broad, generic things about widely differing albums.
"Overrated" presumes to calculate the pleasure or genuineness of others -- that's impossible and arrogant, IMO. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:18
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Maybe a “reviews without rating" system should be introduced. -------------
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I’m all for it.Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:22
Yes, but displaying a numerical average does not mean that I need a calculator to decide what I'll listen to next, like "album X has 0.1 more points, so I'll choose that one". ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:31
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This whole topic is contradictory. You are more likely to listen to an album you’ve rated higher due to the fact that you enjoy it more so really this idea isn’t going anywhere… -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:35
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^ Of course this isn't going anywhere - people will continue to use the word "overrated", and that's ok. It's just a little discussion, can't see the harm in that. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Australian
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 03:40
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That it true. Right now four of the nine active topics contain any of the following words: best, worst, underrated, overrated. 2 of which have been posted by the same guy. -------------
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: November 16 2006 at 04:45
But then again Peter, you are talking about the way the word Over-rated is misused.
This is always about semantics and rethorics.
In the proper way to use the word, over-rated sould not be negative and used to exprtess a dislike. ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:29
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"Sand's overrated. It's just tiny little rocks..."... ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:31
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^ but quite many of them!
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: OpethGuitarist
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:36
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i rather like the term, and will continue to use it! Naivety lives on! haha ------------- back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:51
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^ me too - I'll just try to be more careful about when to apply it.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:52
| I don't use it much anymore. It only causes disagreements. I don't like disagreements. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:53
^ yes, but they're not always avoidable.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:54
| Not always, but I try to avoid as many as I can. By not calling stuff overrated I've managed to avoid quite a few. |
Posted By: BePinkTheater
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 16:56
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"overrated" is overrated... ------------- I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t. -Stone Beard |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 17:03
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arguments are underrated. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: peter_gabriel
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 17:25
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And pop here?? dont you want to tell every emo boy that my chemical romance is pretty overrated?? i found it very possible to an album to be overrated.. in the case of yes i think tales from topographic oceans is far superior from close to the edge.. and the last one in here is the NUMBER ONE ESSENTIAL PROG ALBUM OF ALL TIMES.... what word do i have to call it? Overrated... |
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 17:55
To me it's just a short term for saying "I don't agree with tha majority that ____ is all that great"
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 18:24
Interesting point. But if we really go with that, 9 out of 10 albums on a fan-based review site would be "overrated," as fans (understandably) often only have the time or the urge to review albums they like. Underrated and Overrated are very subjective terms, as they entirely depend on the individual person. They're not saying, "hey guys, you all submitted wrong ratings!" Rather, they're saying, "hey guys, according to MY tastes, you all submitted wrong ratings!" In other words, over/underrated comes about when someone disagrees with popular opinion. For example, I'd say that The Final Cut (Pink Floyd) is underrated here (3.16 or so here, I'd give it 4.3/4.4), while Planets (Eloy) is overrated (4.58 or so here, I'd give it 3.4/3.5). But that doesn't mean that everyone else's reviews are wrong, I just disagree with them. Still, you make a very valid point, and fairly accurately define over and underrated. You asked, "How can ANY album be over or underrated?" Well, to any individual person, every album is probably at least slightly over or underrated. As a definite term, however, you are right. It IS impossible for an album to be over or underrated (other than the general fan based tendency to have lower votes be underrepresented), as what an album is only as good as people perceive it to be. For each person, this is different, but when you average every person's opinion, you get the PERFECT average rating for the album, at which point it is neither over nor under rated. Once again, a VERY interesting point, and, in case you couldn't tell, it got me to thinking. Thank you for that. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 18:25
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Or I could just listen to this guy... who said exactly what I was going to say, but in much less wordy fashion. |
Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 18:28
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I just realized that over or under rated is actually extremely useful if used properly. If you are writing a review in which you disagree with the majority of other reviewers, you could say that the album is, on this site/in general public opinion, over or under rated. If you then counterpoint the general consensus on the album, you create a very persuasive argument that you're rating is, in fact, more accurate than other people's.
^^^That didn't quite come out how it was in my head, but hopefully you'll get my general drift. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: November 17 2006 at 18:34
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well, i didn't expect that much trouble, even if in replay, for the thread just because of my innocent post that was only to tell yoo that i'm getting ready to watch one of my beloved films, the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, which i just did...
------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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