the differences between Avant and RIO
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Topic: the differences between Avant and RIO
Posted By: el böthy
Subject: the differences between Avant and RIO
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 18:07
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Ok, so both genres appear to be so similar with each other that they are under the same ceiling... or something Many times is a band, of either RIO or Avant, mentioned as being (maybe) the opposite, being it RIO called Avant or other wise... This thread is to make sure THIS DOESNT HAPPEN ANYMORE...(damn n00bs), so, by defining each genre not only on an abstrakt theoretical level, but also with examples and by mentioning the true difference (if it is that true anyway) then we might have peace, love, and understanding, so we can all get on with our lives to discuss more important stuff, like which Dream Theater song is youd third favorite of their newest album. I for one am no expert, thought I think I have an idea of which band could fall under RIO or Avant, but I want to see what you (the humans) think... ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Replies:
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 18:23
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RIO is a part of avant, the original movement of 70's bands. Rock in Opposition or RIO was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_movement - movement representing a collective of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_music - progressive bands in the late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s - 1970s united in their opposition to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_industry - music industry that refused to recognise their music. It was initiated by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cow - Henry Cow in March http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978 - 1978 when they invited four http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European - European groups to come to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London - London and perform in a festival called "Rock in Opposition". The groups that performed in the inaugural event were:
Musically it's the same thing as avant prog pretty much, it just indicates the original movement. "RIO as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_movement - movement did not last long, but its legacy still persists. While RIO never referred to a type of music (the original RIO bands were quite diverse musically), it is still often used by listeners, musicians, and distributors to classify bands (generally bands that appeared at the RIO festivals or bands related to or derived from the RIO bands)." So all moden avant bands are pretty surely not RIO. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 18:25
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RIO was the movement in Europe in the late seventies that comprised the original 5 bands and 3 bands added later. I consider artists closely related (through sound or common musicians) to be RIO, though they are also avant-garde. Some avant garde stuff (Captain Beefheart, for example) is very avant garde, but not RIO in the least.
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 18:27
Yeah, exactly. It's those five and the three late additions: Aksak Maboul, Art Bears, and Art Zoyd. Plus, bands like News From Babel that are closely related by blood to those eight. ------------- |
The Miracle wrote:Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 18:32
Yep, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. There'll be a definitive defintion sometime soonish.
------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 20:54
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mmm... seems like this thread has been awnsered so quickly and good... it might also die quite quickly... and good... much like the RIO movement??? aajajaja come one, high five... dont leave me hanging
------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 20:59
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This exact question will, among others, be adressed in the new definition the ZART is working on.
Thanks for bringing it up. ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 21:52
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I think some people just like to be able to use the word "Avant" 'cause it sounds french, ... well, it is a french word to begin with, & France is Art incarnate.
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: SolariS
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 22:11
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I've heard of bands today that consider themselves "Rock against rock". Sleepytime Gorilla Museum is one for example. Sorta complicates things huh?  -------------  
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: May 29 2007 at 23:49
Yeah, I heard that too... I guess it makes sence... in this, crazy avant world ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: tremulant
Date Posted: May 30 2007 at 04:53
What the hell is ZART!? ------------- My solo music: http://www.myspace.com/anthropiate - ANTHROPIATE |
Posted By: Fassbinder
Date Posted: May 30 2007 at 07:34
Zeuhl / Avant-Prog / RIO Team?
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Posted By: TheProgMonster
Date Posted: May 30 2007 at 15:31
I think they're trying to start a new movement. There seems to be a lot bands interconnected to Sleepytime Gorilla Museum that does similar music, for example: Faun Fables, Book of Knots, Two Foot Yard, Tin Hat Trio, Idiot Flesh etc. and also there are bands that are similar, but not interconnected like: Juan Prophet Organization, Unexpect, and etc.. So hopefully we'll be seeing more bands in this wonderful genre(or movement?). |
Posted By: Prometheus
Date Posted: May 30 2007 at 20:38
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im going to have to agree with the Sleeptytime Gorilla Museum comment as it seems to me that, although you can dissect the terms into their respective historical contexts (a bear for avant-), it seems more helpful to think about the nuances of the terms. RIO, aka, "Rock In Opposition", must mean anything that ridicules the mainstream or the accepted musical styles. Avant-garde, besides sounding cooler, just designates anything that pushes the boundaries. Its a difference of nuance and intent, but i think it is clear, even if RIO ussually necessitates an avant- style. examples: RIO: Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Mr. Bungle, Fantomas, Peeping Tom, Frank Zappa Avant-Garde: Kayo Dot, Maudlin of the Well, John Zorn (?), [avant is harder to judge, i think, because its hard to tell the artist's exact motivation, or rather, when the motivation is not reactionary] but really, avant-garde is an almost empty term because it is impossible to create a clear standard by which to judge bands and see if they are "wierd enough" to qualify, even if their motivation isnt reactionary... ------------- "Tell me why world, unfathomable and good, The beauty of everything is infinite and cruel." --Kayo Dot |
Posted By: tremulant
Date Posted: May 31 2007 at 11:31
Ah, okay... and what do they do? ------------- My solo music: http://www.myspace.com/anthropiate - ANTHROPIATE |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: May 31 2007 at 11:57
I see you are nto familiar with PA's way of work so let me give you a brief intro. We do what all the other genre teams do in PA (Symphonic, Electronic, Space/Psych, Post Rock, Prog Metal, Art Rock, Jazz Rock etc). Evaluate new band suggestions and add the bands to PA in the ZAR "genres" (writing bio's, adding the albums and maintenance of the genre) and we are now writing new definitions for the genres to replace the existing ones which are from another website. This is all done voluntarily and for promoting the music.
There are also other teams here - Erros and Omissions, Discography and Bands Submissions.
------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: tremulant
Date Posted: June 01 2007 at 02:30
Ah I see... I thought it would be about that sort of thing. I haven't been to this forum very much in ages, though I do visit PA every day to read the latest reviews, so I didn't know anything about these "teams". When did all this come about? It all seems to be a good idea. ------------- My solo music: http://www.myspace.com/anthropiate - ANTHROPIATE |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 01 2007 at 12:59
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The ZART has been around for a while now, but only now are we really concerned about sorting the whole thing out. We feel the definition needs rewriting and that is what we plan to do. It's a slow process, but hopefully we'll have it done sometime soon. We're still discussing everything as a team, especially which bands come under which category of Avant-Prog (which RIO is). We of course are still adding bands too, despite the lack of a proper definition. The members of the ZART, are all pretty much in agreement with each other, so that helps us decide which bands are Avant-Prog and which are not. To answer the initial question, however, my belief is that Rock In Opposition should only incorporate 8 bands (the original 5, plus the 3 that joined later). There are other related RIO bands, like Present and the offshoots of Samla Mammas Manna, but I am still undecided as to if they're RIO or not. This is what we need to decide on as a team. I hope this helps! -------------   
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: June 01 2007 at 17:10
Not exactly.. see The Miracle's post (those aren't RIO bands). There isn't really much of a difference, except that the RIO bands were part of the original RIO festival, or offshoots of those bands. The sound difference isn't really a factor, I don't think.
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:36
The Samla offshoots are undoubtedly RIO; Samla had evolved to Zamla about a year before the first RIO festival, so technically it's SAMLA, not Zamla, that is arguably not RIO. ------------- |
Posted By: tremulant
Date Posted: June 01 2007 at 22:46
Thanks alot! Yes it does, I now have a good understanding, I had always wondered about how things like that were decided. |
Posted By: TheProgMonster
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 20:45
"Rock-against-rock", Thats actually a new movement formed by them(its proven now). I just got their new album a couple a days ago and there is a sticker that says "Rock-against-Rock Pioneers" on it(not really proof but what the hey). |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 21:43
Yes, you're correct, my mistake, ZMM were the RIO pioneers. I guess SMM are RIO then! How about Albert Marcoeur though? He's proto-RIO, kind of... -------------
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 21:46
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I'm not familiar with his work. What does he sound like?
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 21:49
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I've yet to hear him myself, but his debut album was released in 1974. Apparently he sounds sometimes like Aksak Maboul and Zappa. Once I've heard his albums, I'll let you know more fully.
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 22:28
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Damn, there seems to be almost no information on the guy whatsoever on the internet. None in english, anyways. Perhaps the RIO Drop-In guys will be able to help....
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Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 22:37
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Oh, I have some of his albums, I just haven't heard them yet. All in good time! Claire (listennow801) knows more, I believe. -------------
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 22:38
Oh, that's right. I forgot that you were in the unfortunate position of having piles and piles of albums you haven't listened to yet. ------------- |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: June 03 2007 at 22:43
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Well, unfortunate and fortunate. I'm slowly getting through them!
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