what have progressive rock musicians invented?
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Topic: what have progressive rock musicians invented?
Posted By: laplace
Subject: what have progressive rock musicians invented?
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 12:15
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Inspired about another thread dealing with the consolidation of genres, it occurred to me that we'd been experiencing the phenomenon for decades. We hold up prog as a new and exciting movement, for its time, but it's obvious that even the pioneers were borrowing heavily from psychedelic blues and jazz and as much classical symphony as they could get their hands on. What I want to know is this - what in prog was new, and what was borrowed? Can we vicariously celebrate the invention of the dual-guitar attack or the genuine rock keyboard solo? And vice versa, can we be blamed for new age? Or are there examples of these which preceded progressive rock? It doesn't have to be a big thing, of course. For example, I'm fairly solid on the fact that the distorted organ can be blamed on prog. Or am I wrong? Let's see your thoughts. :) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Replies:
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 12:35
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Catchy moog solos accompanied by a lively rhythm section and Hammond-organ chords!
(E.g. the middle section of "Robbery, Assault and Battery") Isn't that a proggy invention? |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 12:41
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Well, it seems to me like King Crimson's debut album ushered in the "8-minute pop song" which uses several accessable themes and recycled idea's while making the arrangement more dense or "busy" than the traditional pop songs...so I'd say that progressive rock in the late 60s/70s took the prevelent musical styles of the time and tied them all together with a structure that went beyond what was standard for the time. ------------- Signature Writers Guild on strike |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 13:02
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Well, as far as the hazy connotation "new age" has, I suppose progressive rock is more to blame than punk rock. But really, it was a progression of electronic work started by the likes of Tangerine Dream mixed with world influences (with a neat middle connection in Mike Oldfield). New Age gets a bad rap, but when done well, it's superb. A few drawn out synth chords with Celtic chanting is nice to listen to and relaxing, but it doesn't have a full breadth of artistic merit, IMO. "Awaken" by Yes certainly seems to be a nice launchpad for new age ideas. I think what some new agers took from progressive rock and early electronic music was the sonic approach while ignoring the whole complexity issue. Even Tangerine Dream works have very complex rhythms most of the time.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: puma
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 13:05
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Well I'd definitely agree Brian Eno and Robert Fripp invented ambient music, though I'm sure they had no idea of what it would become. I'm trying to think of other pop conventions that these bands invented. Anyone who reads my posts probably knows that I don't see progressive rock as a genre at all, just a collection of bands. Well Pink Floyd definitely perfected the art of the long guitar solo used to build tension in the song. No other platinum-selling band (let alone a 45x platinum selling band) had guitar solos feature so prominently in the songs. |
Posted By: Oceansizzle
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 14:34
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I can't think of any other bands before Prog emerged in the late 60's/early 70's that used odd time signatures in their songs, but just because I can't think of any doesn't mean there weren't any. Some classical music had before, but even that was uncommon. These odd time signatures, and the blending of several signatures in one song, is one of the main things I love about progressive rock...the unexpectedness. |
Posted By: cacha71
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 15:55
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Well, above was mentioned the 8 minute pop song, but I wish to argue that prog can hardly be described as pop as they belong to two completely different genres, and would like to expand on this and state the obvious: the epic over 15 minute track taking up the good part of one side of the record!! I think that this was really when prog came into its own as a genre and musicians gained the freedom to improvise and experiment. ------------- http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 16:10
29/8 time signature - (In a Glass House - Gentle Giant)  oh and a 13/8 song that and many other things, like the rock concept album. Oh and the best music in the world; let us not forget about that one 
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Losendos
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 16:14
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I gave prog credit for giving a certain freedom to the artist . No hard and fast time length,no set time signatures, no consistent style even in one track, no rules concerning lyrical content , no set break up of vocal/instrumental parts, no electric / accoustic seperation . I'm not sure that this much freedom was ever given to a musician before. ------------- How wonderful to be so profound |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 20:38
Hey, what inventors have made any progressive rock? 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 21:17
| I'm not sure what prog musicians invented, but I will tell you what they have broken. Boundries. |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 21:21
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Steve Hackett brought tapping to the table a decade before Eddie Van Halen popularized it...
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: OzzProg
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 21:38
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This "new genre" of music has brought on a whole new psycadelic perspective to music. This music can truly put people into trances, and make them drool. Atleast thats what it does for me (y)! Also this genre generally has not neccesarily more complex music, but more complex music generally at a higher temp, which was something new that people enjoyed. -------------  |
Posted By: anekglagard
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 21:51
!? What about John Cage before them? I'd say 4'33" was probably the first ambient piece of music in that sense of the word! (For those that might not know, John Cage was an experimental modernist composer, and 4'33" is a piece of music with three movements, each being a tacet where the performer does not play any actual notes on the instrument, so the audience was meant to sit and listen to the ambient sounds of the concert hall... Concert hallllllll!!!! [Sorry, I need to insert a Rush reference in every thread I talk in :D]) |
Well I'd definitely agree Brian Eno and Robert Fripp invented ambient music, though I'm sure they had no idea of what it would become.Posted By: Juliovp
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 21:57
progressive rock musicians invented sensations i've never experienced whit any other kind of music.
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 22:35
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Fripp´s iconoclastic playing at first borrowed a bit from Bartok, but stuff like the Sailors tale solo and Fracture seem to be quite 100% Fripp ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: February 01 2008 at 22:41
About the time signatures, I would recommend you listen to some Stravinsky... and hist stuff is from the early ´10! Listen to The rite of spring, the time signatures used are insane------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: Flucktrot
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 01:16
And make people soil themselves! (oh wait, maybe I shouldn't admit to that) I will add the heavy emphasis on synths...dual guitars had been done before, but dueling synths? Or the moog/mellotron combo? ------------- Thank you, God of Rock, for this chance to kick ass |
Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 03:25
 ...  ------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: everyone
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 03:40
| Prog artists have invented nothing structurally musically. The selection of different rock instruments and how they use these instruments for their sound is all these musicians invent. One person mentioned the long guitar solo from Pink Floyd. Long before the pop group Pink Floyd was even created, blues performers had long solos. The guitar has been the most important instrument in rock. Rock has it's foundations in blues. |
Posted By: magnus
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 03:42
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Well, Peter Gabriel did invent words like "unifaun" and "slubberdigullions"!
------------- The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie 
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 06:07
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Prog invented kobaian. I don't think any other musical genre invented a language for artistic purposes...or am I wrong?
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Posted By: cynthiasmallet
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 06:08
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Zeuhl ------------- Would you like to watch TV, or get between the sheets, or contemplate the silent freeway, would you like something to eat? |
Posted By: kiwi
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 09:24
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ACDC says it well. They acknowledge formative influences. The end of "Magic Bus" on The Who Live at leads reminds me of the end of the 1812 Overture. So surely prog grew out of the fertile soil that was the beginnings of rock, the relative wealth of the sixties where lots of young people could afford guitars, increased travel, the increased availability of recorded music, the diversity in radio stations. Innovation and invention doesn't happen in a vacuum. Its also a matter of synthesis. Hendrix possibly couldn't have done what he did if he didn't go to England. The development of new instruments such as the Moog Synthesiser opened the door for the likes of Keith Emerson in the same way the invention of the piano did for Mozart. In the beginning Back in nineteen fifty-five Man didn't know about a rock 'n' roll show And all that jive The white man had the smoltz The black man had the blues No one knew what they was gonna do But Tchaikovsky had the news He said - "Let there be sound", and there was sound "Let there be light", and there was light "Let there be drums", and there was drums "Let there be guitars", and there was guitars "Let there be rock" And it came to pass That rock 'n' roll was born All across the land every rockin' band Was blowing up a storm And the guitarman got famous The businessman got rich And in every bar there was a super star With a seven year itch There were fifteen million fingers Learning how to play And you could hear the fingers picking.... (from Let there be rock, ACDC). ------------- We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah) music |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 09:46
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What have Progressive Rock musicians invented?
NOTHING
The closest to an invention would be Hackett's double tapping technique in guitar (Paganini did it a lot of tuime before in violin), but Emmett Chapman invented it two years before steve.
But that's where the great achievement of Prog musicians is........They had exactly the same things availlable than musicians of other genres of their time, but they did a better and original use of those things.
Iván
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Posted By: Real Paradox
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 09:47
Lol that's the atitude! ------------- What is This? It is what keeps us going... |
Posted By: EnglishAssassin
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 11:11
| I don't know if this is really an "invention", in the sense posed in the original question, but I think we could fairly credit progressive rock with bringing into mainstream discourse the notion that popular music can be judged as art, rather than merely as entertainment, which is a pretty laudable achievement. |
Posted By: sheeves
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 12:27
Not to mention "thumpire" and "karma-ma-mechanic." |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 19:17
| Jon Anderson invented the uncastrated castrati. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: February 02 2008 at 19:23
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I think the key contribution of prog to modern music history is that rock music was originally a "folk" music - meant to be danced to and easily sung along with. Progressive rock, like classical music, was meant to be listened to, savored, appreciated over time. So, perhaps any modern rock music that is intended to be listened to, rather than danced to, perhaps owes something to prog.
------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 09:44
The Beatles were seen as art around the time of Revolver and certainly sgt Pepper's (I think) ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 10:40
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Well Zappa started to work with tape loops, but then I believe Cage may have too (I could be wrong here). Although it was used earlier than prog, multitracking became very prevalent with prog bands. The stuff that's going on on Beatles albums and Floyd's Dark Side are insane! The Rock in Opposition movement went against the music industry and were the originators of the Independent (Indie) scene, who put albums out on their own labels. I'm not saying thing was new, but it certainly hailed a new dawn with music in general. Overall though, I agree that prog musicians and engineers didn't invent anything new, they just were very innovative with that they had already. -------------   
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Posted By: T.Rox
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 10:52
After nearly twenty years of marriage my missus still doesn't get that part of the music that I enjoy so much. She doesn't seem to understand the necessity of immersing yourself in the music to really take in the art that it is. If a song doesn't have a catchy chorus and a foot tapping beat she really struggles with it.
------------- "Without prog, life would be a mistake." ...with apologies to Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Roskisdyykkari
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 11:17
Maybe she should try listening to Close to the Edge. After all, you can even dance waltz to it! I don't know if actual PROG musicians have invented anything, but PROTO-prog musicians (The Beatles and especially Frank Zappa) experimented with numerous recording techniques - John Lennon was (probably) the first musician to use reversed music and sound collages on a record. Besides that, wasn't an instrument called "Shulberry" invented by members of Gentle Giant? ------------- And the sand-castle virtues are all swept away in the tidal destruction the moral melee. |
Posted By: proglil49
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 18:01
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Some claims that Pink Floyd have invented the use of psychadelic studio techniques, though I personnaly think that they are simply among the first ones to have used it. Prog musicians haven't invented anything, exept maybe weird stage costumes, and the 13/16 rythm. ------------- I want to be an astronaut |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 18:51
Hasn't Enya done that sort of thing? |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 18:57
I swear, slubberdegullion is a non-invented word..., probably incorrectly. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 19:57
| Well, I've never considered prog a true genre per se, simply because all of the bands under that label are so diverse, and likewise, prog rock musicians really have invented nothing; they have only developed and refined things that have already existed in one form or another. We could say that The Beatles and/or the Moody Blues invented the concept album; that Hendrix invented guitar psychedelia, that DT re-invented Prog Metal, but in the end, it's all about building on to something that has been there all along. |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: February 03 2008 at 21:14
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In my opinion the prog bands (including "proto" prog bands) invented the 10 min+ COMPOSED ROCK music (as opposed to the improvised, which comes clearly from jazz) suites and sonata's. Ofcourse composed music is not a prog rock invention, but the use of rock and composition over more than the song level, is...I think... ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 04 2008 at 12:20
Well, if you're talking about using these things for the first time in rock music, then maybe, but I thought this was about inventing 100% original things from scratch. As far as inventing languages/words, writing long evolving compositions, etc., Tolkein did the former and Classical composers did the latter, just because it was done for the first time in the context of rock music doesn't make it an "invention", it makes it a re-invention, possibly, but it still built on to already-existing platforms established long ago.
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Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: February 04 2008 at 21:54
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^^^ Most inventions are just a combination of ingredients already existing, but in an original way. In that respect, the combination of rock music with composition over MORE than the song lenght is original, although just a combination of classical music with rock. Very few UNIQUE inventions exist in human history, since all "inventors" allways have a "background" where they draw from... ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 04 2008 at 23:50
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nice to see someone.. Fuxi it was.. answer the question right at the start.... what was new... truly new.. was all the keyboards electronics, and gizmo's that were coming out.. along with with all the multitracked studios where ...as befitting an artist.. you had a larger palate of colours to dabble with...on a canvas that was FAR larger than previously available. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 05 2008 at 12:23
See, again you're missunderstanding me. Had the prog rock guys taken many different ingredients and then created something new from that, I would have said so. What I in fact states was that the prog rock guys have only re-used already existing ideas-- they didn't combine different things to create something new, as far as I can tell, merely repeated an already realized concept.
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Posted By: puma
Date Posted: February 05 2008 at 18:53
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What I meant by long guitar solos is that Pink Floyd (and other such bands) made the instrumental section of the song just as catchy and listenable as the vocal section. Blues definitely took guitar solos, obviously, but how many blues albums have sold as well as Dark SIde of the Moon or The Wall? Instrumental rock music was perfected by artists such as the ones on this site, and like someone earlier said, the prospect of the synthesizer completely aided that. It's common knowledge that Keith Emerson was the first person to play that gigantic Moog onstage, not to mention he worked with Bob Moog (and later, with Korg on their digital Hammond clone); that has to count for something. |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: February 06 2008 at 01:44
| On a more technical note, Wakeman is often credited as a co-inventor of the Birotron. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: February 06 2008 at 14:58
Actually, that was the Monkees |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 07:30
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Let's not forget that progressive also introduced both older classical instruments (violin, sax, cello, flute, oboe, bassoon etc...) as well as shooing in the new technology (Moog, VCS3, assorted pedal boards, midi etc...) and incorporating these instruments into your basic rock format . Prog musicians also helped in creating concept albums as well as visually avant-garde live presentations. As for fusing stunning artwork to the whole, I guess it's fair to say that no other musical genre has succeeded so grandly!
It's all in the details but the prog movement has done more than any other. Has country music invented anything ? Hip-Hop? Sorry but no contest. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 08:58
In defense of Hip-Hop, there was some very creative usage of sampling techniques in the late 80's/early 90's, as heard on Public Enemy's 'it takes a nation of millions to hold us back' and The Beastie Boys' 'Paul's Boutique' before all that creativity was unfortunately killed off when Gilbert O'Sullivan sued Biz Markie over royalties. The level of this usage was never heard before and never again, most of the time it was pretty impossible to recognize the origin of the samples ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: kuipe
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 10:59
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At the beginning, taking a cue from the Beatles, progressive rock composers recognized the possibilities of both the long-play record and the long-form song. I say song over "composition" because prog in it's heyday acheived commercial viability because it retained one key feature of "pop" music - the presence of vocal. The long form allowed in turn for a departure, even an abandonment of pop theme and structure providing possibilities of epic and episodic construction, contrast, trance, maintainence of pattern, and space. Length also required texture, and we can thank progressive rock for adding a thousand new voices to guitars, keys, drums and synths - not to mention effects and loops. Finally and most importantly perhaps, Progressive rock musicians provided the promise of a journey. It was the last great era of long composition since the "classical" period. ------------- BUNDAHO |
Posted By: kiwi
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 12:43
Well said - and that is your first post  . I love this site. What we see happening is the construction of knowledge on this topic. The web enables us to write history almost as it happens. While we acknowledge our biases - I think this is a balanced analysis of the role of progressive rock. The length of the songs/compositions is critical and they are not juts extended jams------------- We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah) music |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 13:36
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No one here seems to get that every example being given is merely an example of something being re-used in a slightly different context.
These are the kind of things we should be debating: did a progressive rock artist invent the chapman stick, the warr guitar? Or have they merely used them to their advantage of furthering their genre's evolution? Same goes for all the keys and effects people are raving about on here. This is about truly inventing something, I thought, but I guess I was mistaken.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 21:14
Thank You Mr Meat, as a long time fan of progressive rock and progressive music in general, going back to the late 60s, I think some of the most innovative music that has come out since the early 70s is late 80s to late 90s sample based music, from hip-hop like P.E. to instrumental trip-hop and DrumnBass. ------------- Help the victims of the russian invasion: http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446 |
Posted By: PROGMONSTER2008
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 21:20
| Prog isn't about inventing, it's just about making rock music more interesting by merging 2 or 3 forms of music |
Posted By: Cylli Kat
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 23:02
What have progressive rock musicians invented?Invented? Most likely nothing; despite all the protests that this might bring forth over insane time changes, new genres, etc.Music wasn't invented, per se, it was DISCOVERED, and then rules were applied. By way of example; the equal temperament system we use in the west was a compromise, other cultures use different tuning systems, etc. So, did J.S. Bach or the Bulgarian Women's Choir or Robert Fripp invent music? I think by default the answer has to be "no". Did they invent rules to be applied to tonalities and rhythms? I think the answer to this would be "yes". Or, in the visual spectrum: can anyone invent a new color? No, but colors, tones and shades can be discovered and palettes and combinations become the rules that are applied to them... Sorry everyone, I thought that maybe I was onto something here; but my train of thought derailed, my artistic license expired and my attempt at profound thought fell flat. My apologies... ------------- [Insert Clever Phrase Here] |
Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 23:04
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Fred Frith invented the art of the prepared guitar.
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: February 07 2008 at 23:05
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Oh, and that guy in Dun invented an instrument called the swisscheeseaphone or something, but then again I have a feeling that there's a good reason nobody ever felt compelled to record him playing it.
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Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: February 08 2008 at 09:26
I think Keith Rowe beat him to it. ------------- "The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time." |
Posted By: mazzaurg
Date Posted: February 08 2008 at 17:28
| For odd time signatures, just listen to Dave Brubeck Quartet, great band for jazz, even though I only own one album... Take five, that's the one with all the oddities in time. ;) |
Posted By: harrold the barrel
Date Posted: February 08 2008 at 23:55
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I'm not a hundred percent on this but didn't Carl palmer partially help in inventing some of the first electronic drums, or not?? On a different level tho, I think they invented a music form (which is simply put)upper class rock. Symphony rock I guess you could say. Long organized and composed songs/sections/albums. along with the classical instruments and new technology. I'm no expert tho, just enjoy it beyond no description! |
Posted By: Bellringer
Date Posted: February 10 2008 at 07:14
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If we're talking about "What has prog invented which has influenced the rest of the music world ever since?" then my vote would go to: the idea of an album being a single, unified artwork rather than merely a collection of songs, which is what pop/rock albums tended to be before prog started creeping into the picture. I say "creeping into the picture" because I don't think you can honestly say that prog had a definite start here or here or here or over here. (Case in point: ask prog fans what the first prog rock album was and see how many different answers you get.) But as a result of prog rock and its spawning of album-oriented bands (bands who didn't have to rely on hit singles for their fame and success), popular music albums, of whatever genre, tend to be seen now as unified works rather than just anthologies of singles with filler. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the thing is that, when releasing an original studio album, artists THEMSELVES nowadays think of their releases as works as a whole. That mindset-- thinking of an album in that way-- was what prog gave the music world more than anything else, IMHO. ------------- Psalm 69:6 |