Cream: Proto-Prog?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46247
Printed Date: August 09 2025 at 19:15
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Topic: Cream: Proto-Prog?
Posted By: Sinusoid
Subject: Cream: Proto-Prog?
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 00:04
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Cream have probably been on the suggestion list several times before, but I don't see them on recent posts.
From what I know, Cream were among the first bands to utilize extended instrumental passages on their live performances. Plus, I'm pretty sure many PA members know about the influence of Clapton, Bruce and Baker on future artists.
I may get shot down since Cream is more blues influenced than anything, but I'd thought I'd bring them up. Any takers?
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Replies:
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 00:09
| Well, Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker have jazz qualifications, and their live jams are legendary and they manage to actually be entertaining, which is more than most jam bands ever achieve. That being said, just because everyone borrows in some way from this trio doesn't mean they should be included. I support Led Zeppelin being here because not only did they influence everyone, but they experimented with their music. Cream were pretty straight-forward blues jammers, like the Allman Brothers who came after them. Great, great band, but I can't see them here. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 00:16
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Though I may have no say what-so ever on the site I'd like to add some insight! True, they're not very progressive at all, but there's no doubt that they had at least a hand in influencing many of the bands, and indeed prog bands to come. Even in Heavy Prog they're listed as influence for many of the earlier bands. Blues rock maybe, but I'd like to think they have a shot. After all, isn't the proto genre open t the bands that helped to define the genres (and sub genres) that exist in prog rock today? For shear influence I think they'd do okay here. Hard Blues Psychedelia is at the heart of so many a-prog band. That and I'd love to review 'em. Anyways, that's this groupie's two cents. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:05
| Led Zeppelin is no more prog than cream is, so why not add them? (By the way, I like that Zeppelin is on this site, but they aren't prog, and we all know it.) |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:15
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Might I add what so very people many people have said. Prog related is NOT prog. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:16
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there's no doubt about Cream's vast influence on almost every rock band that came after them - including many proto and HeavyProg bands - though they were not really Protoprog themselves, and that's an important factor in considering them ..in the end I would say no, as most of the important prog artists began moving away from Cream-type rock |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:16
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If we are going to add every Classic Rock band and artist that influenced Prog artists, lets start with Elvis and Chuck Berry, without them there would not exist Rock and of course not Prog. But a limit must be drawn, I believe Cream is not related to Prog, their influence limits to performing not to songwriting or composition, so I believe we're Ok without them. Not that they are bad,. but they don't have a single Prog element, it's true that PP and PR are not Prog bands (Even though Proto Prog bands need to have Prog elements), but there has to be a direct and obvious relationand in this case it's non existent.
Just my opinion.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:23
Led Zeppelin were added at the owner's request, as were other bands or artists in PR. Unfortunately, the site is not ours, and if the owner wants an addition, then we comply. Simple as that. I think it is high time people realised this simple fact.
Then, LZ are in PROG-RELATED, which means exactly what it says. They are not in Symphonic, or even Heavy Prog. They were added because they were influenced by prog, especially on albums like Houses of the Holy or Physical Graffiti. The case of Cream is quite different, because they are being suggested for PROTO-PROG - which would mean having been influential on the formation of prog, not influenced by it.
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p0mt3 wrote:Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:29
Well, at the risk of pissing Micky off all over again, I'm going to debate you on what my meaning was. I wasn't protesting Zeppelin's existence on this site, I was just pointing out that they, like Cream, aren't prog per say, but are very welcome here as far as I am concerned. That is why Proto-Prog and Prog-Related are here, right? When did I not realize the ''simple fact'' that the owner gets what they want? I have no problem with that whatsoever.
So my point was that, since a subgenre exists now that can iclude bands like Zeppelin, why not Cream? I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being serious: I think adding them to the site is a good idea.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:39
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^ and yet you haven't presented a single argument to support your desire ..*how* would they be 'good for the site'? In what way, exactly are they Protoprog? What does Zeppelin being Progrelated have to do with Cream being Protoprog? |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:43
Why, because both genres aren't strictly prog, so I think Cream has just as good a shot at making it as anyone else.
Thanks for attacking me, though. I needed it. Boy, I'm stupid, thanks for that. Whew! I realize my lack of intelligence, now!
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:50
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Oh also . . . I used Zeppelin as an example because of what 1800areyay said in his post. I know they aren't considered proto-prog, but they had already been compaired against Cream, so I just added to what had already been said The difference between the two genres has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was: because there are two genres that have made a way for otherwise non-progressive bands to exist here on the site, Cream should at least be considered.
Never mind. Upon closer examination of your post, you basically stuck words in my mouth by blatantly twisting my words into something other than what I meant. So, I really don't think we will get along. I'm not bothering any further.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 06:13
wow.. touchy... listen.. I can be a bit of a prick at times.. and will fully admit it. However David is one of the nicest and most thoughtful people on this forum. He did not attack you... only ask you to explain yourself and your reasons.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 08:42
| Led Zeppelin at least hovered on the edge of prog, particularly with the Houses Of The Holy album. I can't think of anything by Cream that fits the bill off-hand. More evidence required, I feel. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 09:32
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Proto Prog and Prog Related are the responsibility of the Admins, and to that end the case for addition must be presented to us (ie The Admin Team) by a Collaborator giving sound reasons why they should be included. Aside from direct requests from the site owner, we do not add bands to these "genres" without solid explanation of their merit, legacy to Progressive music and its development and (to a lesser extent) benefit to the site as a whole. Without reasoned arguments to support their inclusion there is no case to be presented, ergo, no inclusion.
The argument of "If X then why not Y" only holds value if there is an undisputed relationship between X and Y (ie only in very rare instances) and even then this should only be used as a supportive statement in conjunction with reasons relating solely to the band in question - simply "not being Prog" does not demonstrate that relationship and, if anything, weakens the case. As Iván rightly pointed out there has to be some element of Progressive music within the music of bands submitted for PP & PR.
Proto Prog is for bands that, prior to 1969, showed a clear and direct influence on the development of Progressive music as a genre within Rock and not just on Rock in general. If such a case can be made for Cream that survives a peer discussion such as this, then they can be presented to the Admins for consideration. ------------- What? |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 11:52
| I understand. And I admit, I personally have not listened to Cream enough to really give a good argument, but felt like at least they should be given a chance, and it seems that they have, which as all anyone could ask for. If someone (topic starter, perhaps?) could convince a collaborator of Cream's influence in prog, then maybe they will have a shot; if not, well, then they won't. Simple as that, I suppose. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:21
honestly with all the Cream fans here.. and I am sure as hell one of them... if there was any merit... they probably would have been here already. There is little argument TO be made for them to be in proto.. or related. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:30
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No time to even read what's been said, but since coming here I've felt and expressed that Cream would be a worthy addition to the archives under Proto-Prog, but never started a topic on it because the full "Prog" additions deserve more concentration. I personally don't think that the blues elements should exclude the band, either. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:43
except for prog seemed to be.. at least in the formative stage an attempt to get away from the blues based riffing of the late sixties and incorporate art.. structure... and other influences in music. At least that is how I see it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:47
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I don't want to sound even remotely confrontational, but I wish someone would reconsider the whole matter of Proto-Prog and Prog-Related before everything gets seriously out of hand. Regardless of Cream's merits (which I don't want to get into), adding them would get people clamoring for Hendrix, and this will soon spiral out of control. The atmosphere on the forums would become unbearable, and people would start calling each other names as it has already happened. Personally, I have always thought PP and PR were positive additions to the site, but now I would scrap them both if I could - because they are divisive by nature, and no two persons will ever agree on what constitutes a 'relation to prog'. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 16:35
You're correct to my knowledge; that was my understanding, and I certainly wouldn't recommend Cream for a proper Prog category. While blues was important to Cream (and how many blues covers did they do?), and some of the band's best work was sort of blues/ psychadelic fusion, the band was considerably more than just a bluesy jam rock band. Not only do I understand the band to have been influential to the progressive rock and jam scenes, but to my ear quite a bit of the music has compositional/ structural and instrumental similarities to Prog. I'd also say that they deviated from bluesy songs, but many such songs were not typical rock -- though had mainstream success. Can find songs with unusual time signatures (helps that they had a jazzy drummer), jazzy elements, and use of various non-typically rock instrumentation. Personally, I think Wheels of Fire is a pretty progressive album of 1968, and while there is the typical blues-based music, music like Pressed Rat and Warthog, Anyone for Tennis, and Passing the Time which opens in a bluesy fashion show something of the whimsy quite commonly found in Prog (and Proto-Prog). Rather bombastic songs like Tales of Brave Ulysses (off Disreali Gears - 1967) and White Room have something of an early prog pedigree too. Anyway, for tall this talk, it's been ages since I last listened to Cream, though I once loved the band, so perhaps I'm going on memory too much and I didn't know Prog so well then. Perhaps people don't think Cream influential enough to Prog bands (and I suspect it may be more influential to Prog-Related ones lol) and not simailar enough in sound to those bands in Proto-Prog that set the standards (yes, I think the old if x is valid for inclusion then y does too argument, if relevantly used, has merit). Ah well, this was bit of a waste of time typing as I don't really anything worthy of noting. If this site sought to be the most comprehensive Prog, Prog Related, and Proto Prog (term I'd change) resource on the net, then Cream's, inclusion, I believe, would be highly warranted. I like the idea of a pre-Prog category as it can help trace the development of progressive rock, but as it is now it is so disorganised, which is fine in a way because more work should be put into working with Prog bands/ artists. The choices just appear so arbitrary at times. It only natural that people will ask if x is here why not y? And as long as it's not a case of apples and oranges, then it's fair. ------------- Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 16:49
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damn good post... Cream HAS the 'rep' as a hardcore blues jam band.. and that is what brought them together I guess.. but actually listen to the studio albums. They were very jazzy (look at Baker and Bruce for heaven's sake hahaha) and had a strong psychedelic element to them. I think you hit the head of the nail though.. Cream's reputation proceeds it and that is what people see when they think of Cream. Richard made the nice point yesterday to look at a song like Crossroads.. .that is not a 'cover' of Robert Johnson... but a complete rearrangement of it. When people cover Crossroads.. they don't cover Johnson.. they are covering Cream. Personally I think it would take a LOT of effort to try to show direct influence on prog though... and not to mention to cut through the politics and set opinions that we all know abound around here. If we were inclusive with related.. or even PP additions ( no Velvet Underground? ..for shame hahha) then I could see Cream having a chance perhaps. No way though with the way things are. Proto Prog has some real potential for this site... adding The Who there was a big step I believe in showing the development of progressive rock..however the site hasn't really focused much on it.. might be something to consider down the road for those in the penthouse of prog. Naturally ...I have lots of suggestions and opinions regarding that hahhah. Anyhow..back to screening bands.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 18:35
that's very sweet of you Mike ..I should have been less confrontational with p0mt |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 18:44
hahahha.. my point was that you weren't... unless I am the one who didn't see it. I sure as hell didn't think you were.. unless asking someone to explain themselves counts as being confrontational these days.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 19:10
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yeah, well, I guess it's all in the wording oh BTW, I picked up Calliope's Citta di Frontiera ..really good! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 15 2008 at 19:16
ahhh... you're talking subtlety.... something completely foreign to me. You didn't call him a sonofabitch or an idiot. so it didn't look like an attack to me hahahha------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: everyone
Date Posted: February 23 2008 at 02:54
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Every blues group can improvise live. That is the attraction to going to the concerts. This being the case you might as well admit Albert King, Magic Sam, B. B. King, Fleetwood Mac(before the Buckingham/Nicks joined), John Mayall's Blues Breakers,....etc. Admit all the jazz artists also because jazz is blues based. I do not see why bands like Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple are included only because they have only elements of prog in thier music and the length of the songs. Wow, if this is the case for a band to be admitted into PA, you might as well let all the 1980's hair metal bands in because the length of their hair.
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