Giving prog metal a fair hearing..
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Topic: Giving prog metal a fair hearing..
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: Giving prog metal a fair hearing..
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 12:43
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Apart from 4 Dream Theater albums, I know very little about prog metal. Today I bought 'Ghost Reveries' by Opeth from the bargain bin in my local HMV.
I must confess I had some negative pre-concieved ideas about Prog metal and most of them are being proven right by this album. Some of the music sounds pretty good; dynamic and powerful, and presenting a varitey of moods and styles. They are clearly good musicians, but when that guy sings like a werewolf, to me, it turns into comedy, bordering on tedium. I dont think I'll ever get to grips with growling vocals; I'm probably too old for that, but can anyone reccomend any prog metal - apart from Dream Theater - where the singer sings 'properly' all the time? I will persevere with this album, btw, it's just that my first impressions are not that great.. |
Replies:
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 12:54
^^and you had to start with Opeth, didn't you....
as a mate of yours, stretching back a few years on this site...would I lie to you?
 so, do yourself a favour and start with this one...GREAT vocalist:
 ..presently only £6.30 on Amazon....  ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 12:56
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btw, if you're interested, I gave Ghost Reveries about 4 listens and shoved it on ebay....
as I said in another thread, personally I can't stand growling either...its completely unnecessary...
 if I wanted to hear cookie monster vocals, I'd go out and buy myself a Sesame Street DVD....  ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 12:59
Thankyou, Jared. I will check that out. 
So far I have deduced that Opeth have the potential to make better - well, more original - music than Dream Theater, but have decided to deliberately offset their talent with comedy vocals. I confess an old fashioned weakness to wanting my singers to sound human, and not something out of a Sam Raimee nightmare.. 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 12:59
| I have a recommendation for you: "Hypothetical" by Threshold. Great vocals and great songs, plenty of great metal riffs and complexity but by no means a w**kfest. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:01
More like the Honey Monster... 
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fandango wrote:Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:03
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^^nice recommendation NS... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:04
------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:05
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Maybe Indukti might provide a boost to your appreciation. Check out the many glowing reviews. Devin Townsend's projects are a good place to start with, too. I stumbled onto ZIltoid & Terria. Both are great. ZIltoid, especially with an excellent shot of Canadian humour, eh ... ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:06
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Cheers, NS. I shall check out Threshold too.
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:08
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^^I LOVE Threshold, but for me, there's more of the 'heavy neo' about them than pure prog metal (mainly Nick Midson's influence)..if you can cope with Arena with a few more crunching riffs...either way, they are very British... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:12
True enough, and that's what I was thinking...I wanted to point Andy towards this end of the PM spectrum vs. the "Meshuggah" part  |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:12
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The band that I have been recommending to people asking for metal has been Thought Chamber. The singer is Ted Leonard from the Heavy Prog band Enchant. Their description here on PA is an "intelligent brand of metal". ------------- 
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:15
mmm, I've heard a few Arena albus, and they never really jumped out at me. The only one I ever purchased was 'Contagion' which I dismissed fairly quickly as being simple and a bit cheesy, but maybe I've always been a little dismissive of neo. I'll have to dig it out, blow the dust off it and give it another go. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 13:41
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^^your best bet would be to go onto the bands respective Myspace pages Andy, and check 'em out for free.. personally, I really have a soft spot at the moment for some of the new wave of technical, symphonic metal bands from (mostly) Scandinavia such as Pagan's Mind, Beyond Twilight, Spheric Universe Experience, Anubis Gate, Darkwater, Pathosray, Seventh Wonder & of course Circus Maximus...check out a few and see what you think...quite a different style to Opeth... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 14:01
Micky will have a fit when he sees this thread tonight.... He LOVES Ghost Reveries! And so do I, actually... I have to admit I'd rather listen to 'cookie monster' vocals (especially if paired with excellent 'clean' ones like in Opeth) than to the likes of LaBrie .Anyway, even if they're not strictly speaking 'metal', I think you would enjoy Riverside. The vocalist is really one of the best I've heard lately. |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 14:19
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^ Riverside is an excellent recommendation.
Pain of Salvation is a band that really hits the mark with me. Nothing seems to forced in their music, they can seriously play their instruments but refrain themselves until the time is right. The lyrics are very passionate and conceptual (sans 'Scarsick'. I recommend 'Remedy Lane' and then moving to 'The Perfect Element' if you liked the former. If singing is something that you hold in high interest I would recommend a 'less-metal' album by a prog-metal band, Sieges Even. 'The Art of Navigating by the Stars' is one of the best albums I have ever heard. There is metal presence, but not that much. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 14:27
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Another metal band that I feel has had some really great moments is Evergrey. Their albums In Search of Truth, Recreation Day, and The Inner Circle are all very good. I also like Monday Morning Apocalypse but it is criticized for being more metal by numbers and not prog. -------------
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 14:56
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i would stay clear of Devin Townsend if yo dont enjoy heavy vocals, especially on Ziltoid the Omniscient. Terria is incredible however and the screaming is used very very sparingly. second the Pain of Salvation recommendation and would like throw in Ayreon's - Human Equation. if you want to branch out into prog metal just check out the top 20 album's page, all of these recommendations will come form there for the most part
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:04
It's one of my favorite albums of all time, but I can understand the vocals making this a non-starter for some folk. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:24
I tend to agree with you Andy. I also bought Ghost Reveries and I quite like it. He does have a great voice when he sings normally but I just persevere with the growling bits and wait for them to finish, as the music is really good. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:35
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I can't say I'm too happy about all the bashing of the extreme vocal styles in this thread ... I sometimes have problems with them myself, but they're certainly not all out of place or ridiculous. There are also many distinctly different styles ... Mikael Akerfeldt's growling doesn't sound anything like Devin Townsend's screaming for example. @Blacksword: Please check out Heaven's Cry ... they recently made their two albums available for free on their website ( http://www.heavenscry.com - http://www.heavenscry.com ), you simply need to register. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:46
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Blacksword; Spastic Ink has a decent vocalist who actually sings (Jason McMaster) but they're an Extreme band and I don't know if you're interested in that... I second Riverside though I find the music a bit bland, and I assume you've tried Maiden-- though they're ProgRelated here I consider them quite proggie |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:48
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Is that the same Jason McMaster from Watchtower and Dangerous Toys? -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 15:53
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yep.. Texas boys |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 16:00
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All the early King's X and Galactic Cowboy albums always thanked each other and thanked Watchtower. Since I liked those two bands, I occasionally tried to find Watchtower's albums to no avail, and nobody other than me ever heard of them around here.
When Dangerous Toys came out with their debut album I was in my hair metal stage so I bought that album. I wasn't really too big of a fan of his voice though. Definitely, a heavy metal chewing glass type voice. If I remember that debut album was pretty good though with songs like Scared, which was either about Alice Cooper, or had Alice Cooper make a cameo (I forget which or if it was both). Songs like Sport'n A Woody, Take Me Drunk, and Bones in the Gutter were fun to sing along to during those teenage years however. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 16:47
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Thankyou for all the suggestions folks!
I quite like the Riverside samples I've heard on this site, and some of the reviews nake them sound quite interesting. Mike, I'll check out Heavens Cry. Atavachron, I grew up on metal generally, especially Maiden, although I gave up on them after 'Seventh Son..' They did have proggy elements, which caught my ear early on. It was probably a liking for their more lengthy songs that opened me up to Rush. I think after I discovered prog, the metal sound just lost its appeal. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 16:54
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Pain of Salvation- The Perfect Element (Can not recommend this album enough) Kamelot- The Black Halo Opeth- Damnation (not really metal but no growling on here) Anathema- Judgement Ayreon- Into the Electric Castle (a bit cheesy, but great performance from Fish) Fates Warning- A Pleasent Shade of Grey Indukti- SUSAR Liquid Tension Experiment- 1 & 2 The Gathering- Mandylion, Nighttime Birds Symphony X- The Divine Wings of Tragedy, V: The New Mythology Suite Threshold- Hypothetical, Critical Mass, Critical Energy Vanden Plas- Beyond Daylight, Christ 0 ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 17:21
oh come on Mike, we are perfectly entitled to give our oppinions on a particular band/vocal style...especially as Andy's initial reaction to Ghost Reveries was similar to mine... it does nothing for me artistically whatsoever, and I should be free to express this oppinion without people taking offense...  ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 17:29
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^ I took no offense ... I just felt the need to say something about it. If it does nothing for you artistically it may well work for other people, just like the theatralic style of Peter Gabriel is not for everybody, or the avant-garde/experimental style of Peter Hammill.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 18:13
I remember Dangerous Toys from back in the day... .loved the album I had by them. He is a hell of vocalist. Putting that group there you suggested on my list to check out. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 18:37
| Stryper is the end all of prog metal. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 18:44
EPIC FAIL! However, the most metal albums Arena has released are Immortal? and Pepper's Ghost. Both are pretty awesome, but Pepper's Ghost is inferior, IMO. Immortal? is one of the darkest records I've ever heard and also a very excellent album, with one track I don't quite think is totally great. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 18:49
| Opeth is one of the best prog metal acts period. The death growls/grunts may take some getting used to, and if you don't really like veering from the velvety singing of Gabriel or whatever, then you may never get into them. But Opeth is probably one of the least cheesy or pretentious acts you'll find in prog metal. Ghost Reveries is my favorite album, but all are rather good (having not heard Orchid or most of My Arms, Your Hearse). You must simply perservere. |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 21:03
| My Arms, Your Hearse is solid. Not the favorite of most people, but always agreed it is a pretty strong transitional album. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 22:00
^ very much agree. (i liked it more than still life  )
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 22:24
those are the only two albums I haven't got my grubby hands on yet... Orchid I found at a Borders a couple of weeks ago.. and promptly hid it in the country music area till I get back to the store to get it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 22:44
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let's see some good prog metalluh as mentioned before Pain of Salvation and select albums from Devin Townsend's discography such as Terria this is probably a pretty random plug but Shaolin Death Squad is a nice recent find, and though they use growls on the first track, they're few and far between, much less than Opeth's Arcturus is another good one, try The Sham Mirrors ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 22:54
just put on 'Ink Compatible' You made me curious .... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Drakk
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 23:02
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I'll also recommend Shaolin Death Squad, if you can put up with vocal acrobatics and sparse growling.
------------- [QUOTE=darkshade] [QUOTE=Sckxyss] I'm disappointed - neither of these players are avant-garde! Al di Meola. [/QUOTE] haha i know. but the poll itself is avant-garde [/QUOTE] |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 28 2008 at 23:51
Great link Mike.. I tried to get the album and couldn't... I will have to commit the crime against my principles of downloading an album...
 And Mike, you shouldn't complain. This thread is clearly not for us. It's for people who don't like progmetal that much to recommend to other people who don't like progmetal that much some albums that they may actually like... You, like many others, like a LOT of prog metal... so I would end up recommending something like 100 cds... (leaving out the countless other prog metal albums I have...) I'm trying to review as many prog metal albums as possible, so check it out.
EDIT: i just bought the album! Your review convinced me... ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: February 29 2008 at 02:32
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^ cool! BTW: Here's my current top 20 prog metal albums list:
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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http://www.emusic.com/album/Pain-of-Salvation-The-perfect-element-Part-I-MP3-Download/10955325.html">Posted By: MusicalSalmacis
Date Posted: February 29 2008 at 07:07
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look for In The Woods... - Omnio, trust me, it's a great album and most people can enjoy it... |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 07:54
I listened to Compatible Ink the other night and forgot to tell you. Great album.. and your review hit the nail on the head. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 09:49
Growled vocals are an acquired taste. You will only learn to accept them when you find music you like to accompany them. Opeth is usually good for that because the vocals are used relatively sparingly and are accompanied by comprehensible, melodic music. Go listen to uneXpect (try Desert Urbania on http://www.myspace.com/unexpect - their MySpace ) and you're unlikely to get any part of the vocals (avant-garde music isn't good for introducing styles). If you want to try to acclimate yourself to growled vocals, try some of T's beloved Amorphis (melodic death metal; not prog) or maybe some goth metal where the death vocals are not featured prominently (i.e. not Epica). You might also look for "good" death vocals, which also excludes Epica . If you know someone who has it (or don't mind using eBay if you don't like it), you could try After Forever's eponymous album. Discord basically only features the death vocals as background (they're mixed very, very quietly as far as death vocals go). To be honest, it was After Forever's 2001 album Invisible Circles that got me past growls. You might also try some vocals that are only partially growled or screamed, which can be seen very sparingly in Riverside and Indukti (See Loose Heart from Riverside's debut album Out Of Myself).As for suggestions, we really need some background into what you like. I can always throw the usual recommendations at you (Riverside, Pain of Salvation, Shadow Gallery), or DT "clones" (Dreamscape, Vanden Plas), but it would be better to have a good idea of your taste, since we could all be barking up the wrong tree. ------------- Hail Eris! 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 10:10
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^ for me it was Opeth who got me past growls - but it didn't happen over night, more like over the course of several months. I loved the instrumental sections so much that I "endured" the vocals, and at some point I accepted them as an integral part of the music. Before that I had been hating the vocal style with a passion ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Tuzvihar
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 10:12
Indeed. I recommend you also OSADA VIDA ( http://www.myspace.com/osadavida - http://www.myspace.com/osadavida ). And if you'd like to try some instrumental prog metal then try this ones: JT BRUCE : http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/jtbruce - http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/jtbruce Luminous Flesh Giants : http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/lfg - http://www.jamendo.com/en/artist/lfg (these albums are legally for free) ------------- "Music is much like f**king, but some composers can't climax and others climax too often, leaving themselves and the listener jaded and spent." Charles Bukowski |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 10:23
My prog tastes are mainly symphonic, but geneally a mixed bag. My background was metal, in the early 80's. But when thrash came in, I lost interest, by which time I had switched to prog, full time; mainly Rush, Genesis, Marillion & Floyd. I dont think I'll ever get past growling vocals. I've been listening to the Opeth album for a couple of days now, and the music seems pretty good to me. They certainly know how to conjure up the sort of atmospheres I like, and when the singer sings properly, it's fine, but when he goes into horror mode, it just sounds silly to me. Right now, I'm listening to 'Isolate' by Circus Maximus, and enjoying it. Much, much better vocals. Perhaps Opeth even have a little more 'Light and shade' in their music than these guys, but generally it's pretty good. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 10:41
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Are you familiar with Tiles? They are a heavy prog band who I feel appeal to fans of Rush. Their albums are produced by Terry Brown, Hugh Syme has made some appearances on keyboards, and Alex Lifeson has a cameo on their most recent album Fly Paper (2008). I really enjoy all of their albums but the consensus seems to be that Presents of Mind is their best. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 12:01
Hi rushfan I'm only familar with Tiles, thanks to you! I did read your review of their set in the record store. I wish we had interesting bands plaing in our record stores!! I do quite like them. As a Rush fan of about 25 years, their sound does appeal to me. I like the vocals, and although they are heavy, they dont have that grinding 'thrash' guitar sound, that puts me off some bands these days. 'Fly Paper' is on my 'to get' list, for sure. Thanks for the reccomendation.
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 12:55
You guys suck. And I don't mean it as much in a disparaging way as I do in a dissapointed way. The growls are part of metal. Its not a necessary part but its a part! Would growling sound good if coupled with Yes' sound? Or would Jon Anderson be able to hold his own singing for Opeth? Not at all. Of course its a matter of preference and I'm not telling you to like it. But I AM telling you to respect it as an art form. Anderson gets a lot of praise for this high register notes. So give metal singers their praise. ESPECIALLY with Opeth, where the clean vocals and the growling are both top notch.
I will admit that there is bad really really bad growling. But opeth's vocalist is very good.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 13:16
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^ I agree with both your points. There's good growling and bad growling, and Mikael Akerfeldt is one of the best "growlers" that I've heard. Bad growling can be horrible ... it's not really a melodic instrument as such - more like drums which need to be tuned, and when they're out of tune you don't sense it like an out of tune guitar, but you realise there's something wrong. And even if you don't like growling at all it's what those artists decided to put on the record, you're stuck with it. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 13:39
I respect all good musicians, prog or otherwise, and the prog metal bands I've heard so far are comprised of excellent musicians; but 'growling' as an 'art form' is pushing it..
Dont take it so seriously. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 13:57
------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:06
how old are you?
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:12
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^^ old enough to feel quite insulted when someone I have never previously communicated with before on this site, tells me I suck...
so, please curb your 'enthusiasm' in future... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:12
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oh no....
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:14
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Blacksword, Fandango: You're missing an important point: Opeth ARE a comedy group, albeit an intelligent one. And I say this as a die hard fan. They consciously play with a metal convention - 'gothic' lyrics, album covers, the elaborate logo, and, finally, growling - all are part of a convention, which they play with in a way which is creative and amusing. There is also the question of vocals fitting the music - try to sing along to the growled parts - it doesn't work. As to whether growling is an art form or not, I don't know, but then again, being the son of an inveterate alcoholic I have trouble considering booze-driven blues/rock vocals art, so what do I know. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:19
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Someone teaching 'growling'? Well, they do say education is being dumbed down.
I would contest that growling is a musical device, or an instrument. It's merely a vocal style designed to convey a sense of horror and dread, but these are not really moods I seek in music these days, certainly not in a metal context. The kind of darkness that a singer like Peter Hammill can evoke, is far more my thing. The vocal style expresses a wider spectrum of emotions; anxiety, fear, insecurity etc.. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:26
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I would contest that Hammil can evoke any kind of darkness (although I love him, too). I would contest if ANY kind of music can evoke 'darkness' since all that music becomes so sweet sooner or later... but that's a different discussion. Anyway, there is really no difference between Akerfeldt, and, say, Lee, or Gabriel, or Fish, or Jon Anderson, or Surkamp or even Hammil... none of these guys 'should' sing, but they do, and the result is, well, what it is. |
Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:32
I do want to ask though, do you usually make pop culture references when arguing with someone?
Yeah truth!
Btw, vocals are really just another instrument. So any kind of vocals, growling or not would be a musical device. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:34
Metal is laden with humour, you're quite right. In fact it's the one genre that has the balls and the sense of humour to laugh at itself. I dont doubt there is an underlying humour in Opeth, and just for the record I amenjoying the album. I wont get to grips with that vocal style, but some of the music is excellent. |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:38
Well, there you go - just imagine Akerfeldt is indeed the Cookie Monster, and you're set, growling will work for you Similarly, I heard the singer from Tindersticks compared to Droopy, that just makes Tindersticks that much better in my ears  |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:43
Why shouldn't they sing? 
I think Hammill can take the listener to very dark places at times, beautiful of course, but certainly dark. 'Plague..' springs to mind, as does the opening to 'Still Life' But, it's a different sort of darkness to that on an Opeth album, for instance. For a start it more emotional than Gothic and menacing, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:44
Absolutely! Droopy rocks!
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 14:48
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Why 'shouldn't' they sing? Just look at all the 'worst singer' polls around here. I just don't think music can be 'dark', because (good) music is pleasant, and darkness is not, simply put. All these adjectives describing music, like 'menacing', 'sombre', 'disturbing', 'dark' and the like belong in inverted commas. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 15:02
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I was never all that interested in exploring Prog Metal, but a few bands changed my mind. It's still not a sub-genre that I am completely into, but there are some ones that have a wider appeal. The funny thing is, my three favorites are all from Poland. Indukti is a band that I think everyone should hear. It is very original, melodic, and creative. Only one album so far, so they have a lot of room to grow. Osada Vida is also very melodic, but carries a nice punch. I doubt there is anyone that has been around these forums that hasn't heard of Riverside. There is a lot of hype, but they live up to it. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 16:22
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Once more with the "Waaaaaaaah I hate growls!", I see. Well think of it this way, it's vocal distortion. I rarely see people complain about distortion on guitars, and distorted vocals fit perfectly with metal since it's more extreme. Mikael said it best himself, "Extreme music needs more extreme vocals." ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 16:26
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Maybe it's more noticeable in Opeth's music than in traditional death metal because Opeth's music isn't *all that* extreme - they don't sustain fever pitch for very long and there's lots of light and shade, plus plenty of time to get into the groove of a song since their riffs are slow... ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 17:25
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I personally LOVE Death Metal and Black Metal, and have for years, I can't even comprehend someone throwing the music aside because of it... That being said I almost gave up on Magma because of the vocals, but I am now glad that I didn't. I think that if you can gain an understanding of why a style is used you can grow to like it, however in some situations you will never get it, and thats ok, just don't put it down. ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 01 2008 at 17:34
oh thank you Mike, glad you enjoyed the record |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 01:42
I have to agree. Imagine the parts that were written with growls in mind, and then they decided to change the vocals to clean. It just wouldn't work, because it wouldn't fit the context of the part/song.
Even if someone can't listen to the vocals, it would be good for at least people to appreciate it's very much part of their style and part of what makes them the band they are. ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 02:15
I have never agreed with you so much as with this statement.
growling is not about the singing. They're not auditioning for american idol. it's about the effect, the sound, even the idea (in death, what voice could sound more like the dark throat of hades than low-pitched growling?) -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 02:52
Ok ... that doesn't make sense to me at all. Dark topics don't exist? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 02:55
Still, I think that sometimes even in extreme music this "effect" is used inappropriately. It seems to me that some bands are stuck in some kind of stereotype ... they're an extreme band, so their singer *must not* use clean vocal styles at all, or at least very rarely. A blatant example for this is IMO last year's album Between the Buried and Me - Colors. Brilliant album, but their singer just can't let go of the screaming. In this case IMHO less would have been much more. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 03:17
Another good point, which tends to plague much of metalcore genre in general. I know BtBaM aren't strictly metalcore, I would say they are one of the most listenable metalcore genre derived bands I've heard, but i have to agree the screaming was used to in excess, which is somewhat of a shame, because as a Metalcore influenced Prog Metal band, they would surely be able to get away with more vocal style changes because of the less limiting genre they are in. -------------
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 05:35
'Topic' are lyrics and lyrics aren't music. Music has no meaning that can be put into words, therefore it's not a 'topic' (unless you want to argue there's a 'chords to standard English' - dictionary somewhere, or an encyclopedia of 'musical gestures to other cultural symbols' ). Remove all the non-musical references to Fantomas' "Delirium Corda" and rename it to, say "Imaginary Landscape" - or don't give it a title at all - and the music isn't half as 'dark'. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 06:53
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Artists create music to express something. Topics aren't only reflected in the lyrics, but also in the music ... your example (Delirium Cordia) proves that. In effect you're saying that Delirium Cordia isn't dark (there is no such thing as dark music) ... and that simply does not make any sense to me. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 07:29
I'll try to be brief - how can you reflect the extreme experience of being operated on without an anaesthetic (this is what Delirium Cordia is supposed to be about, right) in ANY kind of music? Unless you think there is no difference between the two - so which do you pick, the operation or the music We listen to 'dark' music for pleasure - we avoid dark experiences precisely because they're unpleasant. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 08:12
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^ music can reflect any kind of emotion or experience. It doesn't have to be an accurate representation like a photograph. Listening to Delirium Cordia can be a painful experience, there's not much pleasant about it. But we can enjoy the experience, because we know that it's not real and we can stop it any time. It's really the same as bungee jumping, extreme roller coasters or horror movies. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 08:15
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Psychotic Waltz and Deadsoul Tribe don't use death growls, and if someone likes Geddy Lee, Buddy's voice on early PW albums can't be a problem.
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 05 2008 at 13:07
That, and I think that growls convey aggression better than singing. God, just imagine if every heavy part had the growls taken-out and they were replaced with yelling. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 06 2008 at 08:42
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People often say that they are too old for enjoying music whic features growling.
Maybe I'm a bit weird but 10 years ago I couldn't stand any music like that, and now I quite like Opeth, Orphaned Land, latter day Death, and I have no problems with Between the Buried and Me, the sample song made me quite interested in their albums.
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Posted By: heyitsthatguy
Date Posted: March 06 2008 at 09:06
seconded, I'm recently getting into these guys and the guitar work is great, though the vocals border on over the top at times, especially on the debut -------------
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 06 2008 at 19:47
No, that's not weird. Consider that, perhaps the fans of the mid 80s death metal, would now be in their early-mid 30 or 40s now.
I personally think Opeth have some of the more listenable to Death growls in the business. -------------
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: March 07 2008 at 19:26
Absolutely. Just try switching them out. Imagine 2:35 into "Between Love and Fire" by After Forever on Invisible Circles with clean instead of growled vocals. The effect of the section comes from the juxtaposition of the two voices. My opinion on growled vocals are the same as with all instruments. A tuba makes a poor violin, and a violin is no kind of tuba. Similarly, growled vocals do not substitute for clean, and the converse is also true. They both have their roles. ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 08 2008 at 00:31
very well put. Imagine Opeth's Ghost of Perdition without the two kinds of vocals: it would be a good song but not the complete experience from out of hell that it is. -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 08 2008 at 02:19
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That's another thing, Mikael has a very clear death growl. I can hear every word clearly, so it's not like it's some unintelligible gurgling that's just there to sound cool.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: wolfvaga
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 09:26
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Why not? I prefer a little bit polished and slower sound sometimes, and rough and heavy some other times. First think on my mind when I'm in the mood like this are progressive metal bands: Symphony X, Dream Theater or something like that...
------------- Lupus in fabula :) |
Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 09:31
Blacksword, try listening to Opeth's My Arms, Your Hearse . It's my favourite, it has a beautiful flow.
Sorry for not responding earlier, I was busy. Listening to some local commercial radios is a painful experience for me, so I don't put them on in the first place. If you find Delirium Cordia a painful experience, why do you listen to it at all? I find it a pleasant listen, sure, the topic is anything but pleasant, but once I can dismiss it as the shtick it is and forget about it, there's nothing stopping me from enjoying the album. I can't think of any music that could make me feel the way I did in some of the less fortunate moments of my life, not even close. You hit the nail on the head when you said you can just switch unpleasant music off any time you want. This is what makes it different from real life experience - you can't just switch an unpleasant threatening situation off. Not to mention that listening to music can never be a threatening experience. The closest I can think of a truly disturbing and suffocating musical experience is the way certain noise/power electronics/sludge/drone maniacs play their preferred music - LOUD. But a Beatles song would have almost the same effect at that volume, it's not really about music. |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 09 2008 at 09:35
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My musical journey has been kinda strange. I started out with a lot of speed/power metal before ending up in what was prog metal. Blind Guardian, Kamelot, Angra, Alkemyst, Manigance etc. etc. Finally I found myself so horribly fed up with the double bass onslaught that I couldn't stand music for a long time. I then turned to the roots. Purple, Whitesnake, Rainbow, Sabbath, Uriah Heep and the like. I then moved on to proto-prog bands and ended up in prog again via prog-related and proto-prog bands. So here I am. Still having massive problems with prog metal. Can only stand it for shorter periods (half an album or so), but I'd really like to get back in again. Ayreon's The Human Equation is great from time to time and Images and Words remains a favourite of the genre. Later era DT just seems dead to me. What to do? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: March 10 2008 at 21:05
Get away from power-prog. Try: Dark Suns -- Existence Riverside -- Second Life Syndrome Pain of Salvation -- The Perfect Element pt. 1 If you're feeling more technical, Shadow Gallery -- Room V Dreamscape -- 5th Season If you want to really experiment, Orphaned Land -- Mabool (Middle-eastern influenced metal, contains death growls) uneXpect -- In a Flesh Aquarium (avant-garde death metal -- only if you're feeling really, really brave) ------------- Hail Eris!
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Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 02:19
| When I first came to PA I'd been out of Prog for a long time and was looking for new music. I didn't think I'd find what I liked in ProgMetal but I've been proven wrong. I won't add much to the growling debate except to agree with those who said that when the music overall inspires you, the vocals with fit. A year ago I would have said I can't handle growling, period. Now I LIKE some of the growling on Ayreon's 'the Human Equation'. Riverside uses growling only on occasion and don't put me off as well. I hope you found some reccomendations you enjoy, Blacksword. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 06:25
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Update:
I'm enjoying the Opeth album. The music is excellent, and as someone has pointed out, the growls are used fairly sparingly. It's never going to be my favourite vocal style, but I'm able to listen past it. There is some very strong music on that album; complete with great atmospheres and textures. I'm also really enjoying 'Isolate' by Circus Maximus. I much prefer the vocal style, and the music is very powerful and symphonic. Mike, I will register on the 'Heavens Cry' website when I get home from work, and check them out too. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 06:28
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Keep the reccomendations coming..
I've read some of the reviews of Riverside and they sound interesting. They may be my next band to investigate. I maytry another Opeth album fairly soon, but if someone could reccomend something more in the vein of Circus Maximus, that would be good. |
Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 07:54
| Blacksword, Have you given Ayreon a try yet? Truely unique and inspired music even if I don't agree with the prog metal labed for them. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 08:23
Pagan's Mind, Vanden Plas, Threshold. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 09:06
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Thanks guys!
kenmartree, no I've not heard Ayreon yet, but no fear, I'll get round to it. |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 13:40
Added to list of interesting albums. Growls/death is not my cup of tea .------------- http://www.last.fm/user/LinusW88" rel="nofollow - Blargh |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: March 11 2008 at 17:17
Did you listen to the sample for Orphaned Land here at PA? You may be able to tolerate the growls, and they are used sparingly. But then again, if you really want to avoid death growls, I can't hold that against you. Still, your two conditions (no power-prog and no growls/screams) preclude 90% of prog metal.  Blacksword: I recommend being careful with Ayreon. Many people here really like them, but here's the lowdown: he's really, really cheesy. The older stuff (e.g. Into the Electric Castle) is more substantive metal with prog influences, and the recent stuff suffers from filler syndrome (especially the latest, 01011001). Different periods have similar sounds but very, very different substance. I personally enjoy Into the Electric Castle, and I despise The Human Equation, while many feel the opposite way. Definitely, definitely, definitely try Riverside. ------------- Hail Eris!
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