The Economics Discussion Thread

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Topic: The Economics Discussion Thread

Posted By: The Pessimist
Subject: The Economics Discussion Thread
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:16

After readin through the Political Discussion Thread, I decided to create an Economical Discussion Thread, as I know almost nothing about politics

However, I am planning to take an economics degree at University. I'm highly interested in it and I know a fair bit also.

So as you all know, many countries are in a downturn at the moment, the main culprit being oil prices in my opinion. Zimbabwe has perhaps the highest rate of inflation in the world at a mammoth rate of 231,000,000%. Unemployment is also a pretty big issue in the UK, and if we are not careful with the bank bailouts, we may be in a rare deflation state.

Please discuss, all of you who are pretty hot on the world economy

I would also love to know what's going on in other countries as well, e.g. The U.S., Germany and the like.

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Replies:

Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:34

I'm one of millions of unemployed people here in the USA, which has an unemployment rate sitting right under a scary 7%.

I lost my job as a teacher in July (which had nothing to do with the economic at all, but with major property tax cuts). I've applied to over 75 positions, and had two interviews that went nowhere.

And companies continue to lay off workers, or as the British say, the "redundancies."

I hoping things take a turn for the better come January. At least gasoline is under two dollars a gallon.

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:35

The current, immediate issue right now in the U.S. is a federal "bailout" of our domestic auto industry. A bill has passed the House and must now be considered by the Senate to provide an emergency bridge loan to the so-called "Big Three" American auto companies.

Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:45

NaturalScience wrote:

The current, immediate issue right now in the U.S. is a federal "bailout" of our domestic auto industry. A bill has passed the House and must now be considered by the Senate to provide an emergency bridge loan to the so-called "Big Three" American auto companies.

The senate vote could be decided by whomever paid Blagojevich the most $$$. Wink

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 11:58

Not on topic, but what's Blago hiding under that hair that covers his forehead?

http://www.gocomics.com/stevesack/2008/11/17/#"> Tmssa081117

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 12:45

I'm not sure if oil prices were the only responsible for the economical downturn that we are seeing recently. Actually other factors seem much more guilty for the present depression.

I'm quite sure that in 2 years ahead things will return to normality

with the same people that sank the boat still commanding the helm of the economy only to sink another boat 3 or 5 years later. In the end, those without voice, everywhere, will lose and suffer and those with a big mouth will gain and laugh.

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Guigo

~~~~~~

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 12:54

I usually at least leaf through the Wall St Journal every day and it is depressing and becoming a vicious cycle. People losing their jobs, people spending less so more places have to cut jobs and so on and so on. The United States has built it's economy on people wanting to own so much superfluous crap and others building businesses and employing people to sell them that crap that once we all opened our eyes and realized that maybe we only need essentials, it is like a house of cards come crumbling down. And when we buy less stuff, we are also importing less stuff so that affects other countries as well who have built up industries on American's desire to own.

Bailout or no, I think we are in the dumper for quite some time. The only hope we have is the that Americans pull themselves up by their bootstraps and start buying crap again.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 12:59

Atkingani: well at least one of the major forces who ran us into the ground is gone and that is Alan Greenspan. The most overrated government official in quite some time was nothing but a fraud. If that guy sleeps at night, I would be even more mad than I am now.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 13:36

johnobvious wrote:

The only hope we have is the that Americans pull themselves up by their bootstraps and start buying crap again.

I would love to resume doing my part fulfilling the "demand" part of the spectrum, but I have my hands full keeping a roof over our heads.

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https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 13:59

From thismodernworld.com :

November 29, 2008

Jonathan Schwarz:

http://thismodernworld.com/4588 - -->Wicked or Merely Stupid?

This is from a New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/magazine/02wwln-Q4-t.html - interview with Jamie Galbraith :

Do you find it odd that so few economists foresaw the current credit disaster?
Some did. The person with the most serious claim for seeing it coming is Dean Baker, the Washington economist. I saw it coming in general terms.

But there are at least 15,000 professional economists in this country, and you’re saying only two or three of them foresaw the mortgage crisis?
Ten or 12 would be closer than two or three.

What does that say about the field of economics, which claims to be a science?
It’s an enormous blot on the reputation of the profession. There are thousands of economists. Most of them teach. And most of them teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless.

Here’s the Wall Street Journal, writing http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20081124/019960.html - about Robert Rubin :

Under fire for his role in the near-collapse of Citigroup Inc., Robert Rubin said its problems were due to the buckling financial system, not its own mistakes, and that his role was peripheral to the bank’s main operations even though he was one of its highest-paid officials.

“Nobody was prepared for this,” Mr. Rubin said in an interview. He cited former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan as another example of someone whose reputation has been unfairly damaged by the crisis.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1lCwP-RNExkC&pg=PA441&lpg=PA441&dq=tends+to+have+a+sort+of+institutionalized+stupidity&source=bl&ots=azFlIqC2ht&sig=JTkMGrzQGpOVLoAp8mQcWMLYjR8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result - Noam Chomsky :

[T]he commissars, the secular priesthood, the state ideologists…I think it is an extremely corrupt group. I think this is also the group that is the most subject to effective indoctrination, tends to have the least understanding of what is happening in the world, in fact, tends to have a sort of institutionalized stupidity.

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/sometimes_i_wonder_whether_the_world_is_being_run/337813.html - Mark Twain:

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Looking_Back_On_The_Spanish_War/0.html - George Orwell:

Whether the British ruling class are wicked or merely stupid is one of the most difficult questions of our time.

http://thismodernworld.com/category/uncategorized/ - Uncategorized | -->

posted by http://tinyrevolution.com/mt/ - Jonathan Schwarz at 11:17 PM http://thismodernworld.com/4588 - | link

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 14:08

johnobvious wrote:

Atkingani: well at least one of the major forces who ran us into the ground is gone and that is Alan Greenspan. The most overrated government official in quite some time was nothing but a fraud. If that guy sleeps at night, I would be even more mad than I am now.

It's obvious, John

, that AG is out but the problem is if his ideas remain. Will always be someone(s) following his steps.

My own country, Brazil, almost broke twice in 1985 and 1999 and so the banking regulations were so intense and heavy that we didn't undergo a huge injury with the present crisis even getting some debris. When the regulations were done, 9 years ago, some people complained that the Government was shackling the market and stuff like that but these regulations showed to be healthy in the actual environment. In reality, we have a long tradition of Government actions in private issues, something that US and other countries are experiencing now for the first time or at least since the end of WWII.

The Brazilian growth in the period July-Aug-Sept/2008 was 6.8% and even if the last 3 months of the year go null, the annual growth will peak 4.8% although the market expects something around 5.0%. Let's see how things will behave in 2009, since the economy growth here is 80% based on the internal market not in the external market, like China or Japan.

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Guigo

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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 14:15

Please don't boot me for posting the S word, but this is just too apropos.

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https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">

https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 14:15

Hi johnobvious - you know- I don't know that the World Economic crisis isn't an extension of the Iraq war. The Arab nations are very wealthy and obviously - through that wealth - have the ability to play with World markets!! My opinion is that what we are seeing today is an extension of the Arab (call it that for want of not upsetting people who would take us out individuall) West war!!

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I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 14:16

Slartibartfast wrote:

From thismodernworld.com :

November 29, 2008

Jonathan Schwarz:

http://thismodernworld.com/4588 - -->Wicked or Merely Stupid?

http://thismodernworld.com/4588 -

http://thismodernworld.com/4588 - This is from a New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/magazine/02wwln-Q4-t.html - interview with Jamie Galbraith :

Do you find it odd that so few economists foresaw the current credit disaster?
Some did. The person with the most serious claim for seeing it coming is Dean Baker, the Washington economist. I saw it coming in general terms.

But there are at least 15,000 professional economists in this country, and you’re saying only two or three of them foresaw the mortgage crisis?
Ten or 12 would be closer than two or three.

What does that say about the field of economics, which claims to be a science?
It’s an enormous blot on the reputation of the profession. There are thousands of economists. Most of them teach. And most of them teach a theoretical framework that has been shown to be fundamentally useless.

Here’s the Wall Street Journal, writing http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20081124/019960.html - about Robert Rubin :

Under fire for his role in the near-collapse of Citigroup Inc., Robert Rubin said its problems were due to the buckling financial system, not its own mistakes, and that his role was peripheral to the bank’s main operations even though he was one of its highest-paid officials.

“Nobody was prepared for this,” Mr. Rubin said in an interview. He cited former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan as another example of someone whose reputation has been unfairly damaged by the crisis.

[T]he commissars, the secular priesthood, the state ideologists…I think it is an extremely corrupt group. I think this is also the group that is the most subject to effective indoctrination, tends to have the least understanding of what is happening in the world, in fact, tends to have a sort of institutionalized stupidity.

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/sometimes_i_wonder_whether_the_world_is_being_run/337813.html - Mark Twain:

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Looking_Back_On_The_Spanish_War/0.html - George Orwell:

Whether the British ruling class are wicked or merely stupid is one of the most difficult questions of our time.

http://thismodernworld.com/category/uncategorized/ - Uncategorized | -->

posted by http://tinyrevolution.com/mt/ - Jonathan Schwarz at 11:17 PM http://thismodernworld.com/4588 - | link

Being an Economics student at A level, I completely agree with the fact that it is treated like a Science. I also agree on the fact that it's almost useless, not due to personal experience, but down to the fact that if all the theories worked, then surely the Economic Problem, Unemployment and Inflation across the globe would have been sorted by now. Also, why aren't all companies, i.e. British Banks, at some kind of optimum instead of having to be bailed out? Yeah, I completely support that statement.

As for the quotes? They are excellent. Trust you to bring some form of humour into the discussion

Love the cartoons by the way

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 14:49

kibble_alex wrote:

As for the quotes? They are excellent. Trust you to bring some form of humour into the discussion

Love the cartoons by the way

I bet you didn't forsee that coming when you started this thread. Tongue

I love the invisible hand one. "If it's invisible why can we see it? Never mind that--just run!!" Tapfret's is good, too. LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 15:29

Slartibartfast wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

As for the quotes? They are excellent. Trust you to bring some form of humour into the discussion

Love the cartoons by the way

I bet you didn't forsee that coming when you started this thread. Tongue

I love the invisible hand one. "If it's invisible why can we see it? Never mind that--just run!!" Tapfret's is good, too. LOL

That one is utterly brilliant also. "Now you're out $25 million, plus the cost of your Subaru"

.

To be honest, I'd run from a giant hand with eyes also

And the free market as well, it's fantastic but I wouldn't wanna get involved for the fact that it's an unnatural timebomb.

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 16:31

Actually I thought it was down to an overpopulation of people being given credit to buy an excess of stuff they don't need at a price that they can't afford. Anyone who is willing to commit themselves to a store charge card at 26%-29% interest when the base rate has been round about 5-7% (until recently that is) needs to look at their priorities. The number of times I have heard people say OK we can't afford it but we'll get it anyway cos we deserve it, beggars belief. And now that credit is no longer available and the creditors want their money back.

OK I may be a grumpy old git but at least a grumpy old git in the black.

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 16:34

DavetheSlave wrote:

Hi johnobvious - you know- I don't know that the World Economic crisis isn't an extension of the Iraq war. The Arab nations are very wealthy and obviously - through that wealth - have the ability to play with World markets!! My opinion is that what we are seeing today is an extension of the Arab (call it that for want of not upsetting people who would take us out individuall) West war!!

They certainly play with the cost of oil. They are not stupid and understand perfectly the laws of supply and demand but try and manipulate them in order to manipulate Americans into how we feel about oil. The price of oil goes through the roof for awhile and then goes back down. So when it goes back up, we are conditioned to be okay with it because it isn't as bad as it was. And it will go back up. And the American oil companies play right into this because they are in it for stockholders. And while some of them are (obstensibly) looking at alternatives, others just pad their pockets at the expense of a lot of lower income people. And they all cry about market forces when hauled in front of congress which is a crock.

I saw recently that Iran and Venezuela are crying because oil is now beneath their break even point to have enough money to run their countries. What did they do when it was way over the break even point? Spend it on belly dancers? OPEC may very well be fracturing due to infighting about supply and it will be where each country swings their own deal. Then you would see supply and demand mean something when it comes to oil and only the smart will able to make money on oil instead of relying on OPEC.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 16:41

limeyrob wrote:

Actually I thought it was down to an overpopulation of people being given credit to buy an excess of stuff they don't need at a price that they can't afford. Anyone who is willing to commit themselves to a store charge card at 26%-29% interest when the base rate has been round about 5-7% (until recently that is) needs to look at their priorities. The number of times I have heard people say OK we can't afford it but we'll get it anyway cos we deserve it, beggars belief. And now that credit is no longer available and the creditors want their money back.

OK I may be a grumpy old git but at least a grumpy old git in the black.

You are right and it goes right into my earlier point. All this credit availability allows people to buy more than what they should. Be it bigger houses than they can rightfully afford or more stuff. And businesses and jobs become dependent on this whole philosophy. When the frivolous stuff goes, the jobs go. The more jobs lost, then even more frivolous stuff and sometimes important stuff gets sacrificed. It feeds on itself.

The housing bubble was the same deal as the tech bubble. A lot of people thought in the back of their minds that it couldn't last or was too good to be true, but wanted to ride the gravy train because everyone else was. I don't claim to be a genius on this stuff or claim I knew it was coming, but one day people are going to figure out that after you get your fingers burned so many times, maybe keep them out of the oven.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 17:39

kibble_alex wrote:

However, I am planning to take an economics degree at University. I'm highly interested in it and I know a fair bit also.

Hmm, I wonder what the unemployment rate is for economists? LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 17:43

Epignosis wrote:

I'm one of millions of unemployed people here in the USA, which has an unemployment rate sitting right under a scary 7%.

I lost my job as a teacher in July (which had nothing to do with the economic at all, but with major property tax cuts). I've applied to over 75 positions, and had two interviews that went nowhere.

And companies continue to lay off workers, or as the British say, the "redundancies."

I hoping things take a turn for the better come January. At least gasoline is under two dollars a gallon.

Not very on topic in terms of the topic at large, but geezus dude, that's a harsh situation man.
Hope things are going be looking better down the track for you financially.

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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:18

Slartibartfast wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

However, I am planning to take an economics degree at University. I'm highly interested in it and I know a fair bit also.

Hmm, I wonder what the unemployment rate is for economists? LOL

Oh I love your irony

Probably pretty high actually. Looking at the unemployment rates of the past few years, it doesn't look too promising for the future. In the UK they have fallen from 6.1% to 5.8%, but that won't last for long and it will probably rise back up again if the banks don't get bailed out. Then again, Gordon Brown might have something tucked up his sleeve - but I seriously doubt it. I walked over to my local corner shop this afternoon to buy a simple Galaxy, and it was shut. I found out it had gone out of business, whilst about 6 months ago they were thriving. It's better over here in the UK, but not that much better.

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:24

Tapfret wrote:

Please don't boot me for posting the S word, but this is just too apropos.

maybe they'll boot me for quoting it as well..... nice gig if you can get it... the private jets with hats in hand was priceless. Should be a condition from Congress as well.... each one of their jobs... immediate resignation.. no f**king bonuses.. golden parachutes or whatever. Like that guy I read about who asked for a 10 million bonus simply because the finanical institution he led (the name escapes me) only lost so many billions but didn't go tits up. Nice....

almost to the point of agreeing with the wackos on the right and just saying.. let the f**kers go bankrupt.. and start over. The workers are screwed either way....

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:30

Ladies and Gents, I present you with Starbucks. The ultimate coffee luxury (by volume) in the USA is in the crapper due to the economy. Folgers is looking pretty good right about now. Buy enough coffee for two weeks for 8 bucks or spend 5 bucks a day at Starbucks? Do the math.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:32

Let me give you another example of entrepenurial idiocy. About a mile from where I work, there is a lot of retail space and a lot of restaurants. About 50 restaurants in a mile long stretch. But TGI Friday's decides to build a restaurant right there. Out of business in 6 months. A fast food taco place build a brand new building right there. Out of business in 3 months. Supply and demand meant nothing. to them and some people took a huge bath.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:35

johnobvious wrote:

Ladies and Gents, I present you with Starbucks. The ultimate coffee luxury (by volume) in the USA is in the crapper due to the economy. Folgers is looking pretty good right about now. Buy enough coffee for two weeks for 8 bucks or spend 5 bucks a day at Starbucks? Do the math.

hahaha.... yeah... Folgers will look good when the half smoked cigarettes off the ground start look appetizing.

gotta have my starbucks Clap

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 18:39

johnobvious wrote:

Let me give you another example of entrepenurial idiocy. About a mile from where I work, there is a lot of retail space and a lot of restaurants. About 50 restaurants in a mile long stretch. But TGI Friday's decides to build a restaurant right there. Out of business in 6 months. A fast food taco place build a brand new building right there. Out of business in 3 months. Supply and demand meant nothing. to them and some people took a huge bath.

I've been reading about the decline in business in those type of resturants for at least a year or so... they are crazy to be opening any. As you said.. enterpenurial idiocy. Clap

In these times.. those chili dogs.. 2 for $2.22 at the 7-11 hit the spot

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 19:15

micky wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

Please don't boot me for posting the S word, but this is just too apropos.

You mean I've been showing restraint all this time from linking to comics and images with curse words for nothing? LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 19:20

Slartibartfast wrote:

micky wrote:

Tapfret wrote:

Please don't boot me for posting the S word, but this is just too apropos.

You mean I've been showing restraint all this time from linking to comics and images with curse words for nothing? LOL

leave it to us to find ways around the autocensor LOL

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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip

Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 19:50

That looks exactly l;ike one of our cats.

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https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">

https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 19:58

More happy news:

Former Nasdaq chairman arrested for fraud

Madoff reportedly told employees Ponzi scheme lost billions for customers

NEW YORK - Bernard Madoff, a longtime fixture on Wall Street, was arrested and charged on Thursday with allegedly running a $50 billion Ponzi scheme, U.S. authorities said.

The former chairman of the Nasdaq Stock Market who remains a member of Nasdaq OMX Group Inc’s nominating committee, is best known as the founder of Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC, the closely-held market-making firm he founded in 1960.

But the alleged fraud involved a hedge fund he ran from a separate floor of the building where his brokerage is based.

Madoff told senior employees of his firm on Wednesday that “it’s all just one big lie” and that it was “basically, a giant Ponzi scheme,” with estimated investor losses of about $50 billion, according to a criminal complaint against him.

A Ponzi scheme is a pyramid-type swindle in which very high returns are promised to early investors, who are paid off with money put up by later investors.

Prosecutors charged Madoff, 70, with a single count of securities fraud. They said he faces up to 5 years in prison and a fine of up to $5 million.

“Madoff stated that the business was insolvent, and that it had been for years,” Lev Dassin, acting United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, said in a statement.

Authorities said that, according to a document filed by Madoff with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission on January 7, 2008, Madoff’s investment advisory business served between 11 and 25 clients and had a total of about $17.1 billion in assets under management.

“Bernard Madoff is a longstanding leader in the financial services industry,” his lawyer Dan Horwitz told reporters outside a downtown Manhattan courtroom where he was arraigned. “We will fight to get through this unfortunate set of events.”

A shaken Madoff stared at the ground as reporters peppered him with questions. He was released after posting a $10 million bond secured by his Manhattan apartment.

The SEC filed separate civil charges.

“Our complaint alleges a stunning fraud -- both in terms of scope and duration,” said Scott Friestad, the SEC’s deputy enforcer. “We are moving quickly and decisively to stop the scheme and protect the remaining assets for investors.”

The SEC said it appeared that virtually all of the assets of his hedge fund business were missing.

Madoff had long kept the financial statements for his hedge fund business under “lock and key,” according to prosecutors, and was “cryptic” about the firm.

Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities has more than $700 million in capital, according to its website. It is a market maker for about 350 Nasdaq stocks, including Apple, EBay and Dell, according to the website.

The website also states that Madoff himself has “a personal interest in maintaining the unblemished record of value, fair-dealing, and high ethical standards that has always been the firm’s hallmark.”

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 20:02

Tapfret wrote:

That looks exactly l;ike one of our cats.

I do say that's a fine looking cat occupying a typically cat-friendly place.

On the economy, I only gotta say, and I'm not religious, "please please Lord give me the strength to not open my 401K statement".

Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 21:42

Has Zimbabwe ever not been a terrible place to live?

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if you own a sodastream i hate you

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 22:04

"Best damn government cheese ever" Rachel Maddow

"Italian Government Bails Out Cheese Producers

javascript:NPR.Player.openPlayer%2898068823,%2098068801,%20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.PLAY_NOW,%20NPR.Player.Type.STORY,%200%29 - Listen Now [57 sec] javascript:NPR.Player.openPlayer%2898068823,%2098068801,%20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.ADD_TO_PLAYLIST,%20NPR.Player.Type.STORY,%200%29 - add to playlist

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=3 - Morning Edition , December 10, 2008 · As governments around the world bail out troubled industries, the Italian government is buying 100,00 wheels of parmigiano cheese. The Wall Street Journal reports the government will donate the cheese to charity. The problem isn't deteriorating demand. Apparently Italy's parmagiano industry has been financially shaky for years " National Public Radio

However over here...

"Government cheese, or "Pasteurized Process http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Cheese - American Cheese for Use in Domestic Programs", is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processed_cheese - processed cheese that was provided to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_%28financial_aid%29 - welfare and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_Stamp_Program - food stamp recipients in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States - United States during the 1980s. (The style of cheese predated the era, having been used in military kitchens since the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World_War - Second World War .)

The cheese was bought and stored by the government's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Credit_Corporation - Commodity Credit Corporation . Direct distribution of dairy products began in 1982 under the Temporary Emergency Food Assistance Program of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Nutrition_Service - Food and Nutrition Service . According to the government, it "slices and melts well."^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese#cite_note-0 - [1]} The cheese was provided monthly, in unsliced block form, with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_product - generic product labeling and packaging." Wikipedia

Hot Plate Heaven At The Green Hotel

by Frank Zappa

"I used to have a job
An' I was doin' very well
Depression came along
An' everybody start to yell
"Where'd they go, them good ol' days,
'An all that crap we used to sell?"
Now I'm in Hot-Plate Heaven,
at the Green Hotel

Republicans is fine,
If you're a multi-millionaire
Democrats is fair,
If all you own is what you wear
Neither of 'em's REALLY right,
'Cause neithor of 'em CARE
'Bout that Hot-Plate Heaven,
'Cause they ain't been there"...

-------------
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 11 2008 at 23:02

Funny how governments trust the little people when it comes to cutting taxes (let them choose where they want to spend, they know better than governments), but it doesn't trust them when it comes to handing out multi billion dollar corporate welfare.
Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.
If GM goes under, do you really believe that their 20% market share of sales will disappear ? Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, heck Subaru, will take up the slack. And with those companies expanding their operations in host countries as the sales increase, much of the slack will be picked up. It will just mean that GM/Ford/Chrysler workers won't get their $75/hour, and their retirees won't get pension increases every new contract.
Yes, you read that right, American car companies and the Unions would include increases to retirees pension for those already retired.

-------------
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 08:18

micky wrote:

hahaha.... yeah... Folgers will look good when the half smoked cigarettes off the ground start look appetizing.

gotta have my starbucks Clap

Bet the lines are shorter nowadays so bonus for you. Wink

-------------
Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 08:28

Slart, I read a long article about the cheese thing in the WSJ. They are selling cheese for less than it costs to make it. There is something like 500 small, independent parmigiano cheese makers in Italy and there is more supply than demand. The strong should survive and the weak go out of business. That is a free market system. But the Italian gov't is going to make an ill-fated attempt to fix the situation when it will only delay many of these outfits shuttering their doors.

I know first hand about this situation. I work for one of the top pet supply companies in America. I keep track of all the competition as part of my job. I have a list of over 700 other companies selling pet supplies (no pet food or cat litter) in the USA. Any clown can import a toy from China or cook up a new treat in their kitchen, get assigned a manufacturer's code (upc number for their company) and they are out peddling their wares. A lot of these small guys are going to face dire straits through this turndown. There will not be a buyout for them, nor should there be. I don't like to see people out of work but when they get into this particular business it is dog eat dog (pun intended). And it is part of my job and my company's goal to hasten as many departures out of our market as we can.

-------------
Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 09:44

kibble_alex wrote:

So as you all know, many countries are in a downturn at the moment, the main culprit being oil prices in my opinion.

You're confusing the cause and effect here. Oil is a commodity and as such its material value is pretty much a constant. Its price however is not and may fluctuate because of supply-demand conditions. The demand of late was rising, but so was the supply as such countries as Angola, Equatorial Guinea, etc., joined the ranks of oil producing states. So if the supply is adequate the culprit should be something else.

Now if you can think for a moment of money as a commodity, the supply-demand laws are applicable here too. So the more the money supply, the lower its price, i.e. the buying power. Thus since everything else is denominated in Money, the lower the price of money, the higher the price of everything else.

kibble_alex wrote:

and if we are not careful with the bank bailouts, we may be in a rare deflation state.

I know the situation with banks in England in general. Just curious what you mean by the corelation of the bailout and deflation.

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 09:52

johnobvious wrote:

I usually at least leaf through the Wall St Journal every day and it is depressing and becoming a vicious cycle. People losing their jobs, people spending less so more places have to cut jobs and so on and so on. The United States has built it's economy on people wanting to own so much superfluous crap and others building businesses and employing people to sell them that crap that once we all opened our eyes and realized that maybe we only need essentials, it is like a house of cards come crumbling down. And when we buy less stuff, we are also importing less stuff so that affects other countries as well who have built up industries on American's desire to own.

Consumerism is the mantra of the past couple decades. Hard to tell if it's harmful or beneficial as it has both its positives and negatives

johnobvious wrote:

Bailout or no, I think we are in the dumper for quite some time.

Looks this way.

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 09:55

He's singled out as a scapegoat for now, but he hadn't been the only one who ran us into the ground. At the very least Clinton and Rubin should be added to the list

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 10:05

Slartibartfast wrote:

http://thismodernworld.com/4588 - This is from a New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/magazine/02wwln-Q4-t.html - interview with Jamie Galbraith :

Do you find it odd that so few economists foresaw the current credit disaster?
Some did. The person with the most serious claim for seeing it coming is Dean Baker, the Washington economist. I saw it coming in general terms.

But there are at least 15,000 professional economists in this country, and you’re saying only two or three of them foresaw the mortgage crisis?
Ten or 12 would be closer than two or three.

This fellow does not suffer from excessive personal modesty... there were plenty of people seeing it coming in general terms.

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 10:58

IVNORD wrote:

He's singled out as a scapegoat for now, but he hadn't been the only one who ran us into the ground. At the very least Clinton and Rubin should be added to the list

I'll agree he is not the only one to blame and the Fed is given too much credit and too much blame when it comes to the fortunes of the economy. It just makes me sick how people were lauding Greenspan as a god towards the end of his run. And Bernanke is his disciple and was the wrong person to go in after Greenspan retired.

-------------
Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 11:00

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

How do you envision this giveaway to the citizen? Could it be so that easy money would be spent foolishly?

debrewguy wrote:

If GM goes under, do you really believe that their 20% market share of sales will disappear ? Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, heck Subaru, will take up the slack. And with those companies expanding their operations in host countries as the sales increase, much of the slack will be picked up. It will just mean that GM/Ford/Chrysler workers won't get their $75/hour, and their retirees won't get pension increases every new contract.
Yes, you read that right, American car companies and the Unions would include increases to retirees pension for those already retired.

The unions should be reined in. They've ruined the industry. It will be spared anyway, it's a strategic industry

Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 11:13

IVNORD wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

How do you envision this giveaway to the citizen? Could it be so that easy money would be spent foolishly?

And of course if we give away easy money to large, multinational corporations they will spend it in the best interests of America and its economy.

-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 11:13

IVNORD wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

and if we are not careful with the bank bailouts, we may be in a rare deflation state.

I know the situation with banks in England in general. Just curious what you mean by the corelation of the bailout and deflation.

Well look at it this way. If the British Govt. bail out all our banks, or even just some of the major banks, then its balance will be intensely cut (billions are required to bail out the bank of Scotland alone). This will shortly lead to higher taxation, we will all be skint, meaning that the price of living will have to come down to stop us meeting the same fate as Zimbabwe.

-------------
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 11:23

johnobvious wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

He's singled out as a scapegoat for now, but he hadn't been the only one who ran us into the ground. At the very least Clinton and Rubin should be added to the list

They sang praise to him because on the surface it looked great. Greenspan used to be a proponent of a gold standard who metamorphosed into an extreme monetarist, unwillingly so imo. He missed a few turning points when he could still put brakes on the economy and let it go thru the normal cycle. After 1999 it was too late. Bernanke inherited a train wreck which still looked like a locomotive. Whether he's right or wrong, he can't do much

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 11:29

The Doctor wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

How do you envision this giveaway to the citizen? Could it be so that easy money would be spent foolishly?

And of course if we give away easy money to large, multinational corporations they will spend it in the best interests of America and its economy.

I've never said that. But it's easier to control spending habits of a few corporations than 300M people

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 11:40

kibble_alex wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

and if we are not careful with the bank bailouts, we may be in a rare deflation state.

I know the situation with banks in England in general. Just curious what you mean by the corelation of the bailout and deflation.

They not necessarily would raise taxes. The Bank of England has immense power to print money. If anything, it would bring inflation. Deflation is a product of overproduction and a shrinking monetary base. While the former has been the cause of the present deflationary trends, the latter is a surreal dream as the monetary base is expanding rather than shrinking. So the deflationary trend will be a transient feature ot the world economy and a terrific inflation will ensue and stay with us for some time. The 70's and early 80's are a good example of that

Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 12:05

IVNORD wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

How do you envision this giveaway to the citizen? Could it be so that easy money would be spent foolishly?

And of course if we give away easy money to large, multinational corporations they will spend it in the best interests of America and its economy.

I've never said that. But it's easier to control spending habits of a few corporations than 300M people

Yeah. The US does a great job of controlling corporations.

Whatever happened to conservative faith in the marketplace. By true Smithian values, the money would be better off in the hands of the people, and let them decide what to do with the money. I'm not saying we should give free money to people, but if we give free money to corporations, we're taking money away from the people, in terms of either higher taxes or bigger debt. I'm always amazed that Republicans always preach the free market, capitalism and Smithian values until it's the big guys in trouble, then their the first ones clamoring for their own brand of socialism.

-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 12:25

All I know is who in their right mind would want to be president right now. Obama has inherited a crap storm and even if he has the best intentions and ideas in order to help the cause, it is so overwhelming right now as to be almost unfixable.

When the fundamentals of a free market society are disregarded in order to obtain short term wealth, things can go terribly wrong. The tech bubble was bad but a lot of that wealth was on paper. The fundamentals of how a stock should be valued were not followed. The housing bubble was created because the laws of underwriting were ignored. But that is tangible wealth that is being depleted and the main chip in how many people value their net wealth. Much bigger problem in my view.

-------------
Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 12:38

The Doctor wrote:

Yeah. The US does a great job of controlling corporations.

It doesn't but it should.

The Doctor wrote:

So what do you propose?

The Doctor wrote:

I'm always amazed that Republicans always preach the free market, capitalism and Smithian values until it's the big guys in trouble, then their the first ones clamoring for their own brand of socialism.

The Republican propaganda is only slightly different from the Democratic. At least there are some logical buisiness regulations coming out of the Rep camp. You could hardly argue in favor of stupid labor laws imposed by the Dems under the pretense of caring for the deprived, poor and needy.

But forget about the ideology. Do you think that letting the big banks and the automakers go belly up would benefit the society? Is it rather that saving them could ultimately save the little guy?

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 12:46

johnobvious wrote:

All I know is who in their right mind would want to be president right now. Obama has inherited a crap storm and even if he has the best intentions and ideas in order to help the cause, it is so overwhelming right now as to be almost unfixable.

Indeed.

johnobvious wrote:

When the fundamentals of a free market society are disregarded in order to obtain short term wealth, things can go terribly wrong. The tech bubble was bad but a lot of that wealth was on paper. The fundamentals of how a stock should be valued were not followed. The housing bubble was created because the laws of underwriting were ignored. But that is tangible wealth that is being depleted and the main chip in how many people value their net wealth. Much bigger problem in my view.

The problem was that the prevailing economic wisdom led the people to believe that the natural economic cycle can be altered, i.e. that we have to avoid recession by all means. That's why the bubbles grew one after another. It was a gamble. The housing market was the last ace in our deck and we blew it

Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 12:57

IVNORD wrote:

The Doctor wrote:

Yeah. The US does a great job of controlling corporations.

It doesn't but it should.

We have a point of agreement here.

The Doctor wrote:

So what do you propose?

The Doctor wrote:

But forget about the ideology. Do you think that letting the big banks and the automakers go belly up would benefit the society? Is it rather that saving them could ultimately save the little guy?

[/QUOTE]

I must claim ignorance of the stupid labor laws to which you refer; however, I suspect that I may not find them quite as stupid. As for what do I propose, and do I think letting the big banks go belly up would benefit society? In the short term. No, absolutely not. In the long term. Yes, absolutely. If the banks go belly up, there will definitely be some short term harm suffered by the little guy. Harm which can be alleviated by taking some of the money which would have been used for a bailout to help the little guys affected. In the long term, other banks will come in to fill the void left by the collapse of the banks. And it will teach a valuable lesson to all companies. You must be responsible for yourself. The government isn't always going to bail you out if you act irresponsibly.

The car manufacturers are a bit more difficult. And that may require some more thought on my part, as if the auto manufacturers go belly up, not only will employees of the auto manufacturers be affected, but also all of those who supply the auto manufacturers, etc. That could have a drastic domino effect. On the other hand, I am not in favor of giving free money to them. Perhaps a long-term loan with interest (at the market rate) and lots of controls, and strings attached.

-------------
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 13:05

Did any of you guys read Alvin Toffler's books - very very interesting although they are dated now!!!!

He basically stated that future wars would be fought on many fronts - one of the main ones being the Economic front. I think that there's much more to the Economic problem today than meets the eye. I was horrified when I saw some figures relating to the amount of investment the Middle East and the East have in the USA and in Western countries. They could literally cripple world economies overnight!

-------------
I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 13:49

IVNORD wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

and if we are not careful with the bank bailouts, we may be in a rare deflation state.

I know the situation with banks in England in general. Just curious what you mean by the corelation of the bailout and deflation.

Personally, I think it could be either. You have convinced me, but I will stick with my guns on this one. Britain will be a poor nation by the time this issue is over. We are already deep in recession at the moment, and I think most of us have experienced it first hand. I'm now completely out of pocket and now loaning off my parents, who are almost out of pocket. You are right about the Bank of England being powerful, but I still think deflation would be a possibility.

By the way, just to reflect on the status of the BOE, I'd like to highlight the fact that we are all living on a lie, and that the promise on all the notes is actually bullsh*t. The BOE haven't actually got enough gold to handout to everyone; only an estimated 7% of the population will be entitled to their share of what is promised on the notes. Don't you all find that pretty scary?

-------------
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 14:32

johnobvious wrote:

Slart, I read a long article about the cheese thing in the WSJ. They are selling cheese for less than it costs to make it. There is something like 500 small, independent parmigiano cheese makers in Italy and there is more supply than demand. The strong should survive and the weak go out of business. That is a free market system. But the Italian gov't is going to make an ill-fated attempt to fix the situation when it will only delay many of these outfits shuttering their doors.

The less said about the current Italian government, the better Dead

.... I am sure some of you at least know what happened (or rather, is still happening) with our national airline, Alitalia. They could've solved the problem successfully months ago when offers came from other airlines, but out of false patriotism (and possibly something more) they refused, sentencing the company to a long, drawn-out agony. What is really strange is that our gov't, like the one still in office in the USA, is anything but left-wing Confused

Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:13

Man, I wanted to make some really good points, but IVNORD already made most of them. LOL

The only thing I can think to add is that the best possible solution would be for the "Big 3" to declare bankruptcy and then restructure their companies from the bottom floor up to the top executives. Will some people lose their jobs over this? Unfortunately, yes, but I would prefer that to those companies going out of business and ALL the employees losing their jobs as well as all the retirees seeing their pensions flushed down the toilet. However, the companies have basically said that they'll refuse to declare bankruptcy so it looks like they probably won't survive. Also, the big 3 pay their employees, on average, about $63/hr (that's counting benefits and all), whereas Toyota, in their U.S. factories, pays an average of $48/hr with benefits. And retirees of the American auto industries make about 90-95% of the employees wages in their pensions/ Unfortunately this came about because, as IVNORD mentioned, of stupid labor laws that take away competitive wages, something that is absolutely essential in a free market economy. In spite of my long rambling, I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can't trust the government to fix this problem (because when does the gov't ever fix anything? Dead

). Instead, the auto companies are going to have to fix it themselves, and from the looks of things it probably won't happen.

-------------

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:47

The Doctor wrote:

So if Citibank goes bankrupt nothing bad would happen? Even if, in a very short time span, it would trickle down to send the automobile manufacturers into bankrupcy too? Not to mention all those people who would lose their jobs in the banking-related field... and what exactly do you mean by "taking some of the money which would have been used for a bailout to help the little guys affected?"

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:52

DavetheSlave wrote:

Did any of you guys read Alvin Toffler's books - very very interesting although they are dated now!!!!

They really are dated. Most wars are fought for economic reasons since day 1. And why does it horrify you that lots of foreign money is invested in the US? Would it be counterproductive for them to cripple the world economies and lose their investment?

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 15:58

Hey Ivnord- you heard of suicide bombers???? I don't think they really care about there own investment!!!! They use things for a future purpose!!!!! The eastern and the arab minds are very different to ours! What about the Divine Wind in the Pacific war!!

-------------
I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:06

kibble_alex wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

kibble_alex wrote:

and if we are not careful with the bank bailouts, we may be in a rare deflation state.

I know the situation with banks in England in general. Just curious what you mean by the corelation of the bailout and deflation.

Deflation is a process of overall decrease in prices, sometimes causing the prices to fall below the cost of production. Situations like that lead to deep depressions as production shrinks. Fears of deflation triggered periodic interest rate reductions across the globe since the mid-90s.

kibble_alex wrote:

By the way, just to reflect on the status of the BOE, I'd like to highlight the fact that we are all living on a lie, and that the promise on all the notes is actually bullsh*t. The BOE haven't actually got enough gold to handout to everyone; only an estimated 7% of the population will be entitled to their share of what is promised on the notes. Don't you all find that pretty scary?

What is really scary here is the fact they still write that the pound is backed by gold if I understand you correctly. Is it really so? I never read what's written on the notes, not worth the time, but as far as I know the last gold standard bastion, Switzerland abandoned this nobel idea in 1999. England sold their last ounce in 2001 if I'm not mistaken.

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:11

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Man, I wanted to make some really good points, but IVNORD already made most of them. LOL

). Instead, the auto companies are going to have to fix it themselves, and from the looks of things it probably won't happen.

The reality is that the unions should be eliminated. The irony is that neither party would ever dare do something like that

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:16

DavetheSlave wrote:

Hey Ivnord- you heard of suicide bombers???? I don't think they really care about there own investment!!!! They use things for a future purpose!!!!! The eastern and the arab minds are very different to ours! What about the Divine Wind in the Pacific war!!

I sure have heard of them, first hand. But they don't invest their hard earned dollars in our economy. Even such jackass as Osama with his quite significant for one person fortune wouldn't cripple our economy had he invested every single penny here. Now why would Saudi princes or Kuwaiti sheiks undermine the Western ecenomies? What would they do with their oil, or petrodollars for this matter, afterwards?

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:21

Maybe they don't care!!! They believe they gonna go to Heaven and get hold of 40 virgins!!!! By the way Osama has massive investment in the American and Europian Economy. His family were big mates with the Bush family once!!! The future battleground will be a very sad yet a very interesting one!!!

-------------
I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:23

The US needs oil - we all know that!!! The future trump cards aint gold or anything else. Without oil economies will grind to a halt if the rest of the world don't wake up and do something about that pretty quickly!!!

-------------
I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:26

DavetheSlave wrote:

Maybe they don't care!!! They believe they gonna go to Heaven and get hold of 40 virgins!!!! By the way Osama has massive investment in the American and Europian Economy. His family were big mates with the Bush family once!!! The future battleground will be a very sad yet a very interesting one!!!

Yeah, nothing sucks worse than both sides believing they are the good guys and the other side is the devil. Makes it kind of hard to conduct business.

-------------
Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 16:30

We must always remember that the Oriental mind has a lot against the West because of the past. They think very differently to the way a Westerner does. (I love the East and Eastern philosophy so I aint bashing them here!!). We must always remember that the West is Satan to many of the Middle Eastern countries and they will destroy Satan if they can!!

-------------
I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:26

I smell the potential scent of a troll. If that's not what you're trying to do, I'd prefer that you further explain how any of this is related to the current economic discussion.

-------------

Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:30

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

I smell the potential scent of a troll. If that's not what you're trying to do, I'd prefer that you further explain how any of this is related to the current economic discussion.

No Trolling here mate!!! I personally firmly believe what I've said and so do others!!! Do you really believe that the Governments will tell you the real reason underlying the current crises????

-------------
I'm a normal psychopath

Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 17:47

Here in Argentina our goverment. ( One of the most arrogant of all time Commanded by Cristina Kirchner and his husband former president Nestor) is taking useless measures to give the people something to talk about. They plan is to give low cost credits to buy electrodomestics and " your first car".

Well I say: What about your first house???? It's almost utopic to buy a house in Argentina , I guess I ll be living with my parents ´till I am 35!!! Inflation is also killing our wages.

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 18:17

DavetheSlave wrote:

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

I smell the potential scent of a troll. If that's not what you're trying to do, I'd prefer that you further explain how any of this is related to the current economic discussion.

No Trolling here mate!!! I personally firmly believe what I've said and so do others!!! Do you really believe that the Governments will tell you the real reason underlying the current crises????

Dude, terrorism isn't an economic issue. Of course, it may indirectly lead to economic problems: the damage caused by the WTC incedent cost millions to fix. But terrorism itself isn't an economic issue.

And there's no need to shout every sentence.

-------------
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 18:42

For all:

Please pay attention that this topic subject is Economical Discussion. There's another thread where Political issues can be discussed.

Anyway, posts with dubious references to different cultures and religions will be deleted.

Thanks!

-------------
Guigo

~~~~~~

Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:17

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

lol, inflation.

-------------
if you own a sodastream i hate you

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 20:58

Your style reminds me of a certain individual whose reincarnations on these forums under different names are remarkable.

Anyway let me try again. It's 72 virgins to be precise.

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 21:06

Henry Plainview wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

lol, inflation.

It's inflation one way or the other as the bailout money will eventually find its way into the economy. The only difference if we give the money to the consumer, the money pool should be mch higher to produce the desired effect, thus a much higher inflation

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 21:29

Henry Plainview wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

lol, inflation.

And giving it to corporations will not have that effect ? Does it depends who spends it ?

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 12 2008 at 22:08

debrewguy wrote:

Henry Plainview wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

lol, inflation.

And giving it to corporations will not have that effect ? Does it depends who spends it ?

Yes. There is a huge difference between loaning companies money so they don't collapse/buying terrible assets and giving everybody free money we don't have.

Which is not to say that the bank bailout will not cause inflation, but giving everyone in the US $10,000 is an even more terrible idea.

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if you own a sodastream i hate you

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 13 2008 at 04:20

Henry Plainview wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Henry Plainview wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Once more, I say - give the bailouts to the citizen, let him vote with that money as to who (corporation-wise) should survive and who should be left to die.

lol, inflation.

And giving it to corporations will not have that effect ? Does it depends who spends it ?

Yes. There is a huge difference between loaning companies money so they don't collapse/buying terrible assets and giving everybody free money we don't have.

Which is not to say that the bank bailout will not cause inflation, but giving everyone in the US $10,000 is an even more terrible idea.

Not if we mandate that it be spent on prog. LOL

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 13 2008 at 04:25

Dropping by briefly.

Bear in mind, economics confused the f**k out of me. The free market is awesome, the free market sucks....I'd have to get a master's degree to even know who to trust.

Concerning the Auto Industry bailout:

I want people to pay for their stupidity, arrogance, and greed. If the companies were ran in ways that should cause them to fail without government intervention, so be it. I want heads to roll, metaphorically or otherwise. Do ordinary people working for corrupt owners deserve to lose their jobs? No. But unless Washington actually gets its head out of its ass and starts dealing with the cancer of corruption killing America, then I want the companies to die.

I'm in a perfect position for such anarchistic proposals. I go to college, but I have no plans for the future, and think more and more that Americans have had it too good for too long. Some strife and hardship is needed to make us not whine, cry, bully, and strut around the world like we have a 20 inch c**k.

Most other people might be afraid of deviation from their narrow, unfulfilled, boring, consumer lives, but I welcome change. Depression, recession, revolution (haha, it's not seeming too far-fetched to me at this point), whatever. Humanity is alive in struggle.

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 13 2008 at 07:34

stonebeard wrote:

If the companies were ran in ways that should cause them to fail without government intervention, so be it.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Same with Britain's banks: we may as well embrace the bailout situation as a method of filtering out all of the weaker banks and let the stronger ones prevail, let nature take its cause.

stonebeard wrote:

Do ordinary people working for corrupt owners deserve to lose their jobs? No. But unless Washington actually gets its head out of its ass and starts dealing with the cancer of corruption killing America, then I want the companies to die.

Trouble is though, and I say this as a parallel situation to America, what makes a country such as England great is the people and the fact that most of us are employed. Although I have pissed and moaned a fair bit about the unemployment rates, we still have them pretty low in comparison to the rest of the world. If a giant's handful of companies went out of business, then unemployment would be our next issue. And it would be huge.

stonebeard wrote:

I'm in a perfect position for such anarchistic proposals. I go to college, but I have no plans for the future, and think more and more that Americans have had it too good for too long. Some strife and hardship is needed to make us not whine, cry, bully, and strut around the world like we have a 20 inch c**k.

I chuckled at that one. Britain walks around like America's girlfriend, going around boasting about her relationship with the 20 inch cock guy, and going up to him whenever she has any trouble. Yes, I am English, but I will openheartedly admit that we are America's bitch.

stonebeard wrote:

Most other people might be afraid of deviation from their narrow, unfulfilled, boring, consumer lives, but I welcome change. Depression, recession, revolution (haha, it's not seeming too far-fetched to me at this point), whatever. Humanity is alive in struggle.

Now come on... the recession at the moment is not fun by any means. I take your point, but although the dream of a perfectly economical state is nie on impossible, it's worth aiming high as at least we are getting progressively closer. I'm all for this getting fixed, and if that means being bailed out by the Govt. then so be it. I just want a bloody job

By the way, I'm still not THAT familiar with America's situation, so I am referring to Britain here

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: December 13 2008 at 17:15

kibble_alex wrote:

I chuckled at that one. Britain walks around like America's girlfriend, going around boasting about her relationship with the 20 inch cock guy, and going up to him whenever she has any trouble. Yes, I am English, but I will openheartedly admit that we are America's bitch.

"Take a look at my girlfriend, she's the only one I've got.

Not much of a girlfriend, never seem to get a lot."

Feeling a sudden urge to listen to Breakfast in America.

I have no sympathies for the Big Three car manufacturers here. When the kids were little we had a Chrysler minivan and it was the largest piece of sh*te I've ever owned, even more unreliable than the Austin-Healey I had in high school, which I would not have thought possible. Owned nothing but Honda's ever since. Sorry Detroit, I can't afford the maintenance on your cars: transmission dead at 38K miles, windows disappearing down into doors at $150 a pop, just constant crap with that thing.

On the other hand I do not think we can afford to let them fail. Think the economy is bad now? Imagine if nobody in the Midwest can make a house payment.

Posted By: limeyrob
Date Posted: December 14 2008 at 04:30

One word missing from most economic debates is 'sustainability'. Obviously we can't go on increasing our global population and think that everything is OK, cos it isn't. We are increasing the population and using resources at an alarming rate. The population wants more and more stuff at little regard to the environment and as cheap as possible. What I refer to as the tourist mentality - first world services at third world prices. When are we all going to realise that this cannot continue and that we have to live in harmony with every thing else that is around us.

I don't think any money should be given to the populace as all they will do is want to go out and buy more stuff - that is unless they can prove that they are going to spend it wisely.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 14 2008 at 08:06

Koyaanisqatsi

Posted By: progaeopteryx
Date Posted: December 14 2008 at 09:56

I have often wondered if this current economic crisis was something building up over years from Reaganomics-like policies. Not being an economist, I can't rightly say for sure, but my gut feeling is leaning towards it as being the cause. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the dismantling of organized labor, the destruction of the middle class, all in a country that used to make everything for itself and now sells us only imports at increasingly higher prices (the markup on products from China must be unbelievable). How did we let this happen?

I can't predict the future, but it ain't looking too good at this point.

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 14 2008 at 10:44

^ well considering that the unionized labor is a huge reason that the big 3 need a handout, I would doubt your assertion. I think the global economy part is right on though...but there isn't much we can do about it - the packaging and shipping away of labor at the expense of quality and domestic production is just sort of what happens in this environment. There will be huge consequences no matter what our politicians decide to do, so people will complain either way. We seem to have an apocalypse-mentality about our society in general, which in turn fuels the economic downturn.

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Signature Writers Guild on strike

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 14 2008 at 10:46

limeyrob wrote:

One word missing from most economic debates is 'sustainability'. Obviously we can't go on increasing our global population and think that everything is OK, cos it isn't. We are increasing the population and using resources at an alarming rate. The population wants more and more stuff at little regard to the environment and as cheap as possible. What I refer to as the tourist mentality - first world services at third world prices. When are we all going to realise that this cannot continue and that we have to live in harmony with every thing else that is around us.

I don't think any money should be given to the populace as all they will do is want to go out and buy more stuff - that is unless they can prove that they are going to spend it wisely.

Give your dog a HUGE bowl of food and then leave him alone for two weeks. Tell him not to eat it all at once - to save it so he can last the whole two weeks. What do you think he's gonna do?

People ain't much different

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Signature Writers Guild on strike

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 09:46

jimmy_row wrote:

^ well considering that the unionized labor is a huge reason that the big 3 need a handout, I would doubt your assertion. I think the global economy part is right on though...but there isn't much we can do about it - the packaging and shipping away of labor at the expense of quality and domestic production is just sort of what happens in this environment. There will be huge consequences no matter what our politicians decide to do, so people will complain either way. We seem to have an apocalypse-mentality about our society in general, which in turn fuels the economic downturn.

Unionized labor is not the reason two of the big three are seeking a loan. Since when is driving down wages a good idea?

Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 11:13

If they can't pay the worker's pension and $75/hour wages, they're gonna go into the whole. Plus, the leaders of the companies did a terrible job. If you have unions demanding MORE than the company has, and managers that aren't doing their job right, then this is what happens. It involves everyone, not just big evil corporate heads.

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Signature Writers Guild on strike

Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 13:17

jimmy_row wrote:

If they can't pay the worker's pension and $75/hour wages, they're gonna go into the whole. Plus, the leaders of the companies did a terrible job. If you have unions demanding MORE than the company has, and managers that aren't doing their job right, then this is what happens. It involves everyone, not just big evil corporate heads.

But then we can make the comparison to pro Athlete salaries - who is the one offering the money and agreeing to pay it ? Just because I make a request in negotiations does not require you to accept.
At a certain point, the big three could have said, short term pain for long term gain. And I wonder why we never read about Japanese CEOs and Execs and their exhorbitant salaries ? If the big boss is getting mega millions for doing ???? , why shouldn't the guy at the bottom who actually makes the product get a good cut ?
After all, the business motivational mantras - "we're all a team", "It's a team effort" , "if we do well, we all do well" ...
or are these just nice sayings on posters .

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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 13:58

Slartibartfast wrote:

Since when is driving down wages a good idea?

It's always been this way.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 14:00

Is it just me or has this thread gone on too long to be truly economical? Tongue

Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 14:00

debrewguy wrote:

Just because I make a request in negotiations does not require you to accept.
At a certain point, the big three could have said, short term pain for long term gain.

In case you didn't notice, every time they tried the unions would go on strike.

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 14:22

Slartibartfast wrote:

Is it just me or has this thread gone on too long to be truly economical? Tongue

You could say that about the world... Maybe that's why the economy has gone down the sh*tter lately?

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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg

Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 15:47

Slartibartfast wrote:

Unionized labor is not the reason two of the big three are seeking a loan. Since when is driving down wages a good idea?

Unfortunately, jimmy is right. Unionized labor has become such a clusterf**k over the last 20-30 years that unions have gone from being something necessary to protect workers' rights and assure fair and competitive wages to nothing more than a whole bunch of political red tape. And these days it always seems that the unions are demanding more, more, more when companies can't afford to pay $75/hr wages. When wages get too high, that means that some some of the factory workers are unfortunately going to lose their jobs, and oddly enough, it's often the fault of the people who are supposed to support the workers and provide backbone. It's an absolute disgrace to me. Sometimes I wonder if unions are any better than the Rebuplicans and Democrats these days. Dead

Granted, unions are only a part of the problem. Like I said before, the only way for the big 3 to survive would be to declare bankruptcy and restructure, but the unions would never let them do that.

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Posted By: IVNORD
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 16:47

birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

Unionized labor is not the reason two of the big three are seeking a loan. Since when is driving down wages a good idea?

Unfortunately, jimmy is right. Unionized labor has become such a clusterf**k over the last 20-30 years that unions have gone from being something necessary to protect workers' rights and assure fair and competitive wages to nothing more than a whole bunch of political red tape. And these days it always seems that the unions are demanding more, more, more when companies can't afford to pay $75/hr wages. When wages get too high, that means that some some of the factory workers are unfortunately going to lose their jobs, and oddly enough, it's often the fault of the people who are supposed to support the workers and provide backbone. It's an absolute disgrace to me. Sometimes I wonder if unions are any better than the Rebuplicans and Democrats these days. Dead

Granted, unions are only a part of the problem. Like I said before, the only way for the big 3 to survive would be to declare bankruptcy and restructure, but the unions would never let them do that.

Worse than that. THey are run by corrupted parasites who to justify their own existence turned the unions into a bunch of extortionists blackmailing the rest of the country. I remember the transit authority strike in 1980, when the entire city of New York was paralized for almost 2 weeks. THen in another year air traffic controllers went on strike and the entire country was paralized for a week. Every time UAW go on strike, the companies have to raise prices to make up the shortfall from the losses. How competitive is that? And why should a guy mounting 2 front bumpers on 2 cars be paid $50? What's so special about it?

HIgh labor cost is the primary reason for jobs going overseas

Unfortunately they can't simply go bankrupt, too many people would suffer. I would guesstimate that only in MI, IN and OH some 7-8 million people would be directly affected. Countless dealerships would go out of business. You wouldn't buy a car whose manufacturer is in bankrupcy proceedings and nobody stands behind the product, or may not stand behind the product tomorrow.

Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 17:11

Running a company involves trying please different interests. Stockholders, management, labor, suppliers, customers. Everyone wants something and it can only truly work if none of the parties involved becomes overly greedy and you are selling what people actually want. The Big 3 were short sighted when they gave away the house to the unions. The unions were greedy but they thought they had to be. And the care companies had cars to build and caved. But this all happened back in the salad days when Japan was not a powerhouse in the auto industry and it seemed like Americans would always be buying cars non-stop. The Big 3 are fairly slow moving when trying to conform to consumer demand. They try to sell what people want, but people are stupid and buy cars too often and that are too extravagant. Sooner or later, reality was going to set in and it has in a big way. If the Big 3 would have been more conservative in expanding, shareholders would have been complaining that they should be selling more. It is a fine line to walk. People generally only see the short term and want to ride a wave without thinking about the long term cost. But the people who think about the long term may not be around tomorrow because the competition is killing them today.

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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday

Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 19:51

johnobvious wrote:

Running a company involves trying please different interests. Stockholders, management, labor, suppliers, customers. Everyone wants something and it can only truly work if none of the parties involved becomes overly greedy and you are selling what people actually want. The Big 3 were short sighted when they gave away the house to the unions. The unions were greedy but they thought they had to be. And the care companies had cars to build and caved. But this all happened back in the salad days when Japan was not a powerhouse in the auto industry and it seemed like Americans would always be buying cars non-stop. The Big 3 are fairly slow moving when trying to conform to consumer demand. They try to sell what people want, but people are stupid and buy cars too often and that are too extravagant. Sooner or later, reality was going to set in and it has in a big way. If the Big 3 would have been more conservative in expanding, shareholders would have been complaining that they should be selling more. It is a fine line to walk. People generally only see the short term and want to ride a wave without thinking about the long term cost. But the people who think about the long term may not be around tomorrow because the competition is killing them today.

And that is the cause of every economic problem that exists today. Clap

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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 20:27

Lookout!!!! Shoes!!!!

I now return your to your regularly scheduled thread.

Posted By: crimhead
Date Posted: December 15 2008 at 21:23

Slartibartfast wrote:

Lookout!!!! Shoes!!!!

I now return your to your regularly scheduled thread.

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 16 2008 at 06:54

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...