Prog artists need us to promote their music.
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=75956
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Topic: Prog artists need us to promote their music.
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Subject: Prog artists need us to promote their music.
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:37
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Music artists need us to promote their music.
Do you agree?
I have been thinking about this for a while. How much impact do we prog fans have on other artists?
Do we have any impact on the artists success?
of course, but to what extent?
Can we act as a promoter for them?
Do reviews make that much difference?
How much difference to a bands success does one review make? A drop in the ocean you would think.
Does free downloaded internet music or second hand Cds destroy an artists ability to be successful?
OK theres enough here for three threads, and much has been discussed in various threads here....but my point here is - we must make a difference in our contribution here either as admins, collbs, PRs or newbies. Newbies make a huge difference because they believe in the site enough to join as a member.
Bands rely on many things to be successful... here are the obvious:
CD sales
Unless we buy CDs off the shelf the bands make nothing. Yet ebay and other garage sale sites are prevalent - the CDs are bought from someone else so the band never sees a dollar. I admit I buy second hand and often the artists send a CD so they do not make money,
however one artist told me that they would rather give their CDs away in order to have a review on a website because the chances are the review would lead to many people buying the CDs or at least discovering a group. Once a group is discovered many people will buy every CD of the band, even backlog CDs of their work. This is one of the positive things about a website that promotes Cd reviews. Even a bad review is giving that band some kind of recognition that it exists.
CD Reviews
Many will check out a band solely for the amount of reviews it receives, good or bad. I know I take seriously a band when it receives a huge amount of reviews. The bands need it. No reviews mean no one hears about them.
The review can change the artists CD sales quota considerably. I have been told directly from artists! The first time I was contacted by an artist, before I became a collab PR, I got the shock of my life. He actually took the review very seriously, a few complaints about my opinon were there, but overall he was expressing gratitude I ewven bothered to review his hard work tat he had slaved over for many months. It brought everything into perspective for me. My reviews became more serious, more refined, less scathing and more thoughtful. Who am I to give an artist one star just becasue I do not like that particular music style? I have become more mindful of the impact upon the artist. It has helped and one star reviews are rarer for me now.
Interviews
Interviews in mags are essential, in zines online and on websites, it is all contributing to the success of the artist. We have a great interview section here - it is taken very seriously indeed!
Samplers
putting samples on magazine Cds are essential, I myself discovered many bands from samplers, paticularly Classic Rock Presents Prog. If not for those samples I would never have got Cds from Diagonal, Yak, Haken and many others.
Touring
touring is essential. The price is high but it has to be done. It pays off as thousands will hear about the band and may even buy their CDs.
Being signed to a label
It is obvious this makes the money. But there are many artists out there still unsigned and they have great ability but how do you get a label to believe in them? Perhaps we fans here at PA, have a say in their future by believeing in them enough to review these unsigned bands or at least give them some promotion here. I am all for that and have done so in the past - as I know many have here....the artists are grateful because we become part of their success. We should never take that for granted! I used to many years ago, but since finding out that artists were actually gaining popularity and recognition due to reviews or threads here, I take it seriously, in some way the artists need us to believe in them. We love the music so we can promote them in our love for their music.
So in conclusion:
Music artists need us to promote their music. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:46
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"Being signed to a label" Do you think this really helps that much? I mean, what exactly does a label do? I'm assuming they just advertise and stuff. I don't get into many bands through advertising (mostly off of this website or last fm etcetera) so it certainly hasn't sold many cds to me.
Oh dear. Well, first of all, paid downloads count as well. Also, a lot of people on eBay or sort of dealers, like record shops - they work in the same way, if enough people buy the cd, they will stock more (so they will buy more).
... Oh God no I'm out of here. :D ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile 
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AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:51
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Let the lazy musicians promote themselves. I'm not in the business of helping them. If they produce music I like, I'll pay money for it, but that's it.
------------- 
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:58
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God, are you there? It's me, Henry. Please don't let this become another piracy thread. I always buy new CDs for that reason. I am certain that the majority of people who are selling used CDs have copied them to their hard drives (somebody on this very forum has admitted to doing that), and I don't want to have any part of that. I have never listened to a magazine sampler or discovered someone through an interview. I feel like that is a dying experience and not one I'll ever have. Nathaniel, I would say that being on a label is hugely important when you're starting off. It gives you respectability: I don't know about you guys, but I very rarely bother at all with self-released unknown musicians. There are so many labels these days, if you can't get on any of them, you're probably not very good yet. It is also key to getting distribution, especially as the music gets more obscure. Of course, this is different if you're already fairly well known in whatever circle you are in. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 17:59
 But seriously, I've discovered a lot of good artists thanks to this site and I hope some of my reviews have helped them out. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:06
Thats a point, if ebay sellers are getting more CDs in to sell to corner a market, it must make a difference too. I wonder how many sellers do that.... those $1 CDs on ebay are a joke! Who is making money there? the crazy thing is that there is little prog on their lists, its all the mainstream stuff. Prog is expensive. To buy Anglagard's 'Hybris' can cost a mint. With the amount they are asking I could buy 6 copies of Pink's debut.
Your note on being signed to a label... "what exactly does a label do?" The bands are signed to a contract and know they are going to have longevity for at least until the contract runs out. In that time the label forces them to release albums, tour the album I guess - to be honest some bands need to be forced. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't <cough>Love Beach<cough>. The bands get paid for their being signed up so they can make better quality albums. Usually  -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:14
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:17
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Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:17
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One thing I would like to add as an online radio DJ is the impact of online prog radio stations in promoting artists... It really helps the groups and that's why established artists such as Dream Theater still care for doing interviews in such stations... ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com) 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:18
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All the discussion on this site, both "official" and of the "JFF" variety, really boils down to promotion. We've all discovered countless artists and albums just by conversing with one another. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:21
Exactly my thoughts. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:24
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I think the very existence of this website is promoting bands through word of mouth. So many of the albums I've bought have been because of reviews from people whos taste in music I trust (important cavette there, at least for me) and talk in the forum. I dont agree with you on the subject of labels. Personally, I think it takes a hell of a lot more work, but self releasing and promoting your own stuff can prove to be a lot more rewarding financially than going through a small label which needs every penny itself to get by and do its job. Just look at the success of maudlin of the Wells Part the Second and The Pax Cecilias Blessed are the Bonds. the flip side is that an established label lije Cuniform or Sensory Records releasing a bands album will generate interest merely through association. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:29
Yeah, that's a pretty interesting point. I'm not sure what the case is with Anglagard, but I was looking for a CD from a band called "Zapotec" and the album is "Not of Sound Mind". I don't think it's ever been released as a CD, the band doesn't exist anymore, and I don't think any record company hold any rights to them. I couldn't even find a vinyl to buy (second hand or not). So what are the morals there? I mean, even if you did find a second-hand copy, the band's not getting anything out of it.
Ehhh, I don't really think about it. I think most of the CDs I own are on labels, but I don't really take it as a sign of quality. Birds and Buildings isn't on a label - they're amazing! An Endless Sporadic neither. Some bands don't want to be on labels and I applaud them. I guess I see what you're saying, but I don't really consider it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:30
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An artist once contacted me (anonymous) but this just about sums up why it is all worthwhile to review these artists and promote them anyway we can here. I hope you dont mind me posting the PM in part, he certainly doesnt mind as i was quite helpful to him over time. But he sent this PM after my review and some thread input, (I blanked out specific band info).
"I am very pleased that you have put time into thinking obout us and reviewing us so if I briefly explain our aim and flexible approach, you may understand us better. The normal way to release an album is... form a band, gig, write music, get a following, save up, record, then spend a lot of money trying to get some interest from the music business and some advertising. This is not our approach because we did that years ago and of course, we had no chance in those days. So... we already have the recordings, even if they are not as good as we could get if we had done it today. I believe that what we have recorded shouldn't be re-recorded because something would get lost. I would, however, like to improve the "mix" and I even agree 100% with you about one section needing more instruments, as it goes a bit flat. You picked up many of the things that I pick up when I re-listen after a long time. Once we feel we know what we have, in other peoples minds, is good or very good, we will know how much money and time to put into improving the whole package and even recording a little more for the same album. Therefore, the more listeners we can get to comment, the more we will know about our music and how to procede. Alot of that has never been played live to an audience and I intend to change that but the band make-up will be a little different. _____ the singer, _____ and I, are in! but to be honest, I'd rather not gig to create interest in the album, I want the album to get us "good" gigs. I hope that makes sense. Of course, if we need to officially release the album before we get featured on here, then I have to guess what we should do, book studio time, finalise the album and release it on our own. The other question that we haven't answered yet is, should the ______ material ...................................................be released with ____________________. We can never improve the quality of the __________ recordings a great deal but things like tape dropouts will be fixed. I feel that they should be packaged as one because although _____ were __________________, or in fact Prog(more melodic rock), the material is very good and __________ was always a crowd pleaser and alot of people love it.. There is enough ________________, to fill an album nicely and it could even(to me) be considered a rediscovered gem................................... Then we would move forward with the new improved version of the complete band. Gigging and supporting the album and writning and playing new material. Does that make sense to you? If you look at my links on ________________________, you should easily find ____________________ voice is better than ever! You made my day again! If you can't make sense of what I have written, here and would like to, I'll give you a ring. By the way, my greatest claim to fame was when, before the __________ days, my first band played a short set in a ___________wine bar! Cheers for now" -------------
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:32
I also forgot about Big Big Train! They self-release. It's great for me as well - I got their new EP for £5 directly from them (and it's brilliant). ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: Mastosis
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:33
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If and when I like a band, and my friends haven't heard of them, and I tell them, that's promotion right there.
------------- A wise man once said, " I have always wanted to be quoted." 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:35
Mles Davis, Zappa, Kayo Dot, Dun, Henry Cow... so many more just because someone posted the album cover! -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:38
 how could I forget radio???! Thats a huge promo tool.
Internet radios are promos for sure. I heard some amazing prog played on an internet radio station and went out and got the Cd. -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 18:47
The key here is you take note of reviews from those whose taste in music you TRUST.
I am the same really though I hate to admit it. I kind of ignore some reviews to a point. Not all the time, but often I can't help that. I have to trust the reviewer first to take into account what they say about a CD.
How do you define trust? How many people trust my reviews? How many trust the top 10 reviewers here? Why do they trust them? Is it enough to write hundreds of reviews? Or it is the QUALITY not the quantitiy that makes the difference. Is it the ACADEMIC intelligent writing that persuades people or their KNOWLEDGE in music? How do you prove knowledge?
Many questions... one answer for me.
I trust those who have a TRACK RECORD of fair, informed, honest reviews. The albums are what they state they are. They dont give essential albums such as King Crimson's debut 1 star, they review the classic prog albums they way you expect, they are undisputed, and they have a knowledge expressed in eloquent informed statements backed by evidence. The evidence is the music. it is not enough to state I hate it, but why. It must be justified. My most scathing attacks on albums are always justifying my reasons. I dont take it lightly. Nobody should or they lose credibility. Furthermore reviewers who constantly rate 5 stars for albums have no respect for me. How can you trust them? Not everything you like is a masterpeice. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 19:08
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I generally don't bother reading reviews, I often prefer to read ones that trash albums I dig when bothering with the reviews section, but I quickly found people, one rater in particular was very influential, who had very similar tastes to mine which led to me buying quite a few albums. In the fora one gets to know people who have similar tastes, and I've been thankful to get wonderful recommendations by people who know the kinds of music that interest or will interest me. These days I don't use PA as a guide, though. I like to use youtube to discover music, and google searches. And I keep my eye on Vadim releases. http://www.vadimmusic.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.vadimmusic.com/ EDIT: By the way, and not to go too far off topic, some say that a rating without review is worthless, but I staunchly disagree provided that the person has rated a significant amount and that that person's ratings seem to conform to one's own tastes. Also if a rater has rated much stuff I don't like highly, then I'd be more inclined to avoid music that person rated well that I am considering unless someone whose tastes I trust (the general tastes complement my own tastes) has also rated it well. I started to rate a lot when Max introduced that new rating feature, though I'd opted not to before mostly. Most of the music I've rated I've rated very highly simply because I used it as a record of some of my favourite albums and didn't bother rating ones that I don't really like (so i won't bother rating albums such as Close to the Edge -- what's a masterpiece to some is not to others. To each his or her own tastes, but it's good to find those who have similar tastes). I don't feel the need to justify my tastes because tastes are subjective, so I think the importance of reviews somewhat overrated. Too many write as if they are being objective when reviewing when they're not. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: February 15 2011 at 19:25
Many future famous artists started off with self-releases and I'm not trying to discourage people from doing it if that is their only option. But most self-released artists do not turn into famous musicians. I personally just don't have the time to listen to self-releases, and I honestly don't understand the few people here who seem intent on tracking down and listening to every free self-release of a certain genre on the internet. Maudlin of the Well is an exception I referred to: they were already famous, so they were able to succeed with a self-release. If Part the Second had been Toby's first attempt at a release, he would not have gotten fan funding for it. Pax Cecilia were able to leverage their self-release because they had the resources for an extremely generous promotional policy (and the music was pretty good too). Most people can't pull that off.
Birds and Buildings are on http://emkog.com" rel="nofollow - Emkog . :P ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 06:27
DOn't get me started on used sales of any media. When you have bought something you have the right to sell it because it's your property. I understand that everyone copies CDs to their hard drives and then sell them used, but it's one of these things that people do without thinking, and you can hardly blame them for being pirates, when 80% of them don't realise what they're doing could be even remotely considered piracy... Ooh look at that, this is turning into a piracy thread, whoops.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 06:41
From a la  bel point of view they invest money and expects a return - so if an album or two flops then the label loses, not the band. Those costs the label pays for out of the profits from albums that don't flop.------------- What? |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 06:47
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Indirectly. One reason I joined a jazz rock fusion group on the web nearly 2 decades ago, was to discover what was going on in the genre beyond the musical backwater called the UK, where information (in the media, played on the radio) was sparse at the best of times - non-existent the rest of the time. Having a information hub or two for your favourite music - especially if it is non-mainstream - where folks can come and expand/update their knowledge of gigs, albums, specialist radio programmes, similar musicians. etc. is one of the benefits of the internet to appear in the last 10-15 years. What follows is the international sales of albums, albums exchanges across borders, exposure of one country's bands to nationals of other countries ...............and some friendships.
I might say very much the same for the time I've been with PA. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 10:31
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 10:40
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 10:48
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By the way if any artists particularly like any of my reviews or comments I'd be more than happy to accept money of freebies and I swear I won't tell anyone or let it influence me.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: unclemeat69
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 11:15
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I don't want to turn this thread into a pro-piracy thread (in my mind pirates usually sail the seven seas, preying on other ships), but I discovered lots of music throught downloading and then I bought what I liked (the Miles Davis boxed sets, all of TFK, Magma, GG etc). Secondhand albums were once firsthand albums so the artist have already seen some kind of royalties on those albums. If a band has a couple of flops, chances are the band will be dropped by the label, so the band is left without a label. These days a lot of the major bands hardly make money on sold albums, they make more money with merchandise and touring. It might be different for prog bands because they usually don't have promotion that are as expensive(I think, I could be wrong). It might be more lucrative for bands to have their own recording studios/equipment and their own e-store, as that would decrease total costs. ------------- Follow your bliss |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 11:23
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I think Labels are important ... there are a few places these days that really influence what I buy; 1) Front page here (new reviews, new releases). 2) People here whose taste in music I have found to be similar to mine, recommendations 3) Labels whose releases I have enjoyed in the past (AltRock comes to mind first but Cuneiform and Soleil Zeuhl also come to mind) 4) Online mail-order websites (I check the front page of Kinesis, lasers edge, and wayside every once in a while - wayside leads to the most purchases right now based on my current tastes) |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 11:28
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When I get my first check on the mail I'll start doing heavy promotion... Until then, I'll continue doing my things and let artists who have the privilege to be able to record and play the music they love do their own thing... ------------- 
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 11:54
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Interesting comments. I think that PA can and does make a difference. Certainly, the few PMs I have had from artists whose work I have reviewed have been grateful for the attention and promotion. I do take notice of reviews, but not in every case. For example, I will buy a new Marillion album whatever the reviews, but other bands, unknown to me previously, I will look at some reviews from collabs I trust. The way we buy music is changing, of that there is no dispute. I mainly download these days, for example I bought the new Pallas album this week from Amazon as a MP3 download. It's cheaper, and I don't have to wait for a piece of plastic to drop through my door. I always rip any CD I buy to my PC. It's my property after all, but I don't then sell on e-bay or wherever. I suspect that most bands will say that ANY publicity they receive is generally good for them. This site, in particular, and also a mag such as CRPR, are very well respected in the music community. As for record labels, well. Just like book publishers, they have been leeches for so many years now, bleeding the artists dry and treating them with little respect (I speak as a layman here, not an expert). If the internet explosion leads to far more artists having direct control over their work and income thereafter, then that is a good thing IMHO. As for piracy, I don't think it will ever be possible to stop it entirely. Somebody needs to come up with a business model that will enable the artist to receive their fair share of things such as file sharing. I haven't used the Bear Share site advertised on PA, but I believe that this does precisely that. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 12:36
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I've helped a few bands get on the site with their help. I think that these days bands have to do it themselves but a little help here and there doesn't hurt. For example, I managed to get Dean Watson on the site with a little persuasion and he was thrilled ( so was I ) at being on the site and having his music reviewed. We did our part but I think it's a myth that a band can make it soley through the internet. In my hometown of Montréal there are literally hundreds of bands trying to make it ( particularily metal bands ) so any band these days is literally an ant when you look at the big pcture. A band might play locally and acquire a cult local following which is good. I think getting well known in any art medium these days is tough whether it be writing a book , painting, dancing. It just doesn't happen overnight anymore ( unless you're Bieber ) and there's really no formula except for keeping at it like an olympic athelete does. It has to be done from the heart without. I actually find that the bands who care more about playing their Music without any lofty expectations are usually the bands that I usually become interested in and acquire an ear for. There's my take. ------------- |
Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 13:13
There are notable exceptions though. How about Cloudkicker - probably the most literal version of this, I don't think the artist even exists outside of the internet. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 13:21
It probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway: We have to be very careful here.
The three things that are important about our reviews here are the three 'i's:
Independence, Impartiality and Integrity.
Break any one of those and credibility dies, not just for the reviewer, but for the site in general. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 14:03
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Yeah but you get a lot of guys who write idiot reviews. I don't know about " Yes they do and yes they know it. " A bit smug? I think what it all still boils down to is an individual's personal taste. A lot of artists don't even read the reviews. Nobody but nobody including Jesus Christ himself could write a review about Bieber that would win me over. ------------- |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 14:32
'smug' must have a different meaning in Canada to the one I know.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 15:36
Do you think you can find a topic that is not so big?
 Very tough to answer this correctly, or properly.
In general, I think that everyone could use everyone's help to get around and get better, and get some more attention. However, if a band is strictly dependant on that, the downside could be that something bad gets said, and they get upset that we did them wrong.
I would envision, that a neutral stand is better, knowing that many of us will disagree and might not care for the piece and then the throwing of the words and opinions, might get personal, or not fun to deal with.
That said, there is such a thing as helping each other out and gain in the process, and perhaps make PA even more important in the equation. More below.
Depends on the artist. I seriously doubt that we would influence Roy Harper, Peter Hammill, Pink Floyd, and many others, for example.
But when it comes to younger bands, and people that are less "defined" than more established bands, I would imagine that we could have an effect. But I would still say that it is about "you" in that band, not what we say or are. And the musicians, themselves, need to understand that.
I think we do, however minor it is ... they do say that if you put a finger in the ocean it is felt ... the question is how much and how far.
This board, PA, is fairly well known in the Internet, although it is NOT quoted on Wiki, as it should and deserves to be, specially when it comes to the Interviews and Reviews and other information, where some articles or notes endup showing up on a thread. And this is the part that does NOT help the credibility and influence that this board can have.
Possibly, and this is my own view, the other thing, is that we are too worried about the sub-genre's instead of making sure that the artists get the mention and the credit they deserve. But for this to happen, many of us have to curtail our ... it's not prog" ... or it's not progressive", and stick more with the reviews and information about the music and the band itself, and this maybe where we fail a bit. Not altogether, just enough.
I don't think that we can do enough to kill a band, or someone's music ... but I do think it is sad when someone trashes Schulze and Garrard ... but I am not going to trash the metal and other sub-genre's ... although I still do not think that loudness or an effect is an excuse for a genre. Like Punk has to be like the Sex Pistols, kinda thing. If you take the vocals out ... you got an average band ... and you and I played just as good in our high school days!
Not unless you get paid for it!
It can ... if the timing is ... not right. But if the band is selling out in an area, the chances that a bad review is going to affect it drop considerably.
But a brand new band, trying hard to even get gigs, a bad comment could hurt ...
I never thought so, but the greedy ones will disagree with you.
Half my collection was build on used albums, because you could NEVER find the stuff when it came out, and the used bins had the best selection! I don't think I can tell you how many of the major bands you and I listen to were found in these bins!
Requires legalities and accounting. And some folks keeping track of inventory and such.
I, personally, do not see why we can not become a "distributor", to simplify things and make thngs more centralized. But many groups would rather do this themselves these days ... the internet is the great equalizer and destroyed the old process. Which means ... why do you have to sell it when they can sell it themselves? ... because they are too lazy to find out what good an accountant can do for them?
Essentially, having more folks selling something is better than less folks, and sometimes it makes it look like it is better ... by the time that you see this or that band in 100 places, your ears might have perked up a little ... that is the nature of "advertising" that eventually hooks you into it.
That's the old thinking. And the "commercial" thinking. A new band, should be more worried about getting their material out than they are about selling another million copies! ... the falacy in that statement, is that it is almost strictly about greed and control, and the only bands that involve themselves in that are the ones that I refuse to consider ... because it is not about the music and never was!
On top of it, maybe some of these bands should check a few others ... Neil Young, Bob Dylan and Grateful Dead ... probably had more bootlegs than anyone else ... and I don't see the GD complaining, or Neil, or Bob ... in fact, Bob is even releasing the famous tapes that were only available on bootlegs for 40 years, now!
Anytime someone says that about the CD's scratch them off your list. I understand the need for a meal and car and such ... but I do not accept that you have to be a jerk, in order to get anyone out there to listen to ... and ABOVE ALL ... believe in your music!
Total BS ... and we should nail that right at the top!
Having come from a literary family, with over 40k books of literature, teaches you one thing ... that it is all about WHO you are,
For me, when a band has to rely on a definition, or a review ... it's over for me. They are a "nobody" already, and what makes you think that the music is any better? ... c'mon ...
I never met a writer that needed kissing, or a review in my life ... why should bands be any different?
Again, this is part of the "commercial bs" these days ... if you drop that in its totality, you have ... ??? answer that first!
I like these. With only one important part ... go back and read the interview with Florian Fricke ... and then go read the reviews ... it's bizarre ... we don't even trust or give a damn about the very person. Same thing with Robert Fripp ... we like his "progressive" band KC, but discussing the work of his that is ten times more progressive in his solo work? ... not happening!
I have no issue with someone giving us their ideas and their views ... except when these come from Mars or Venus and have nothing to do with the Earth!
... the rest of the stuff is too much about the "commercial" aspect of anything the band can gain from ... and that is not your subject or mine to discuss. That is a subject for the band itself to make up their minds on.
Just remember that there are always 2 sides ... ask Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 15:57
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I had a conversation with Olav (Windhawk) a couple of days ago on my Facebook wall about this matter. Feel free to read it there. In short............. The music business is a two legged creature. In my view, and I am in constant contact with the bands due to interviewing them; the idea that people pays for music (digital download/CD) is truly dead. So that leg is only hanging on a thin thread and the blood vessels are almost bone dry. There is nothing we can do 'but say that "don't do illegal downloads". And I bet you my last Ferrari that there is double standards in ProgArchives as among other music fans. The other leg is the gigs, festivals and concert scenes. There has been a lot of trouble recently in this business too, but this leg is the only one we can save. And I mean ProgArchives. I have for a long time collected gigs promoters names and addresses for an intended Gigs Promoters database. I think this is a vital service we can offer the bands who use ProgArchives. That is the response I am getting from the many artists who are begging me to get this database online as soon as I can. If this leg is not saved from dying, ProgArchives, JazzArchives and MetalArchives will end up being a museum. Not in 100 years time. Not in 50 years time......... but in 2-5 years time. The reason is that the band record and album. That cost money. Not the tens of thousands dollars it cost in the analogue, computer free world. We are talking about one thousand to perhaps five thousand dollars. That is still one to five thousand dollars though and this money need to come from somewhere. The income side in this business is dead so that means wages from daytime jobs and family budgets. That is the same budgets as the musician could use to take himself or his family on a holiday. That is the stark choice more and more musicians is now facing. I cannot email a musician, a fellow human being no less, and tell him/her to neglect his/her family. And neither can you. That is the stark reality and it is about time the rest of you understand that we have no God given right to expect more albums to be released. As simple as that. So let's try to keep that other leg alive so that leg can support the weight/pay for future recordings. Otherwise; welcome to the ProgArchives - the online museum. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 16:21
 well said that man.  I made this point 4 years ago ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40153&FID=58" rel="nofollow - Live Prog-rock is Dying ) and again, slightly obliquely, in another blog, ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=64725&FID=58" rel="nofollow - Please Self-Release Me, Let Me Go ). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 16:28
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Lots of food for thought. Just on thing I'd wish to comment on. I'm rather biased to the whole idea of writing reviews for artist as a way to promote their music. For the simple reason that it is very difficult to stay consistent to your own rating system when you do. For example, I reviewed Dean Watson's album, liked it with some reservations and gave 3 stars. Result, artist very disappointed, only wants 4 stars or more  Really, if I can't stay impartial then the whole idea of requested reviews is a no go for me. |
Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 18:15
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There are a ton of ways to promote online without any stress. These things are used more in Europe by artists than in the U.S. In the U.S. They are tended to be used by get-rich-quick scheme people but the technology is there. Some of these things are traffic exchanges and safelists. It's kind of funny, like artists defacing billboards, because in the midst of all this crap you see something interesting, it's out of place and showing an unwitting person something really beautiful and interesting. I think the Situationist art movement did things like that. They were the first to take a film and put a new dialog on it (like Woody Allen's What's Up Tiger Lily"). I'm not a huge fan of them because they were Marxist, but still interesting in the history of art. They took a karate move and put some kind of political dialog on top of it. There are tons of artists in Europe who use toplists to promote their work. These things are not like social networking, which can take some degree of "stress" in that it's kind of like "selling" to your friends. ------------- -- Robert Pearson Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: February 16 2011 at 23:54
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No, they really don't. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 01:48
Very cool analysis ACR, gives some meaning to the work we do here, eh?
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 10:23
I just read the review and how do you want the guy to feel? Some artists don't give a fiddler's cuss but reviews are more important to those just trying to break the ice. I actually lobbied to get Dean's new project on the site and wrote the short bio. However I didn't write a review right away for the fear of sounding biased. I listened to the album numerous times and waited for a few reviews to appear even though I had pretty much made up my mind what I thought of it.I nonetheless let it sink in for a while. The trouble with reviewing albums that are sent to us is that we tend listen to the work with the intention of reviewing it rather just listening to it as a wonderful new discovery or for that matter a piece of crap. It's not like we're Roling Stone magazine here. Because we're fans I would think that our opinions should carry a bit more weight as long as we are not pressured into giving them. ------------- |
Posted By: Dunn Khan
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 10:57
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I would have to say that yes, a lot of prog artists require our help in term of promotion. Then again, we are all limited by what we can actually do of significant importance for these bands. Everyone who is a member of PA can help by writing reviews, contributing opinions and suggesting bands to other members. Anyways, now for the matter of "pirating" music... yes, I do admit that I download a fairly big amount of music but I also buy as much cds as I can to support the artists that I like, go see as many shows and get as much merch as possible. Although pirating serves a purpose in making prog music (any music at all actually) available to a significantly bigger population, it is in my opinion one of the best method of promoting new artists as they can be discovered with more ease and on a global scale. Another great method of promoting prog artists is through the radio or webradio. By a stroke of luck last year, I was offered a job on my campus's radio station (young proghead here by the way) and I took the opportunity to play as much different styles of prog and different bands to demonstrates just exactly how varied and vast the whole world of prog is and it's working, on a small scale (it's a little hit and miss because of the varied sounds that plays on air but I generally receive great feedback from students and others). Suffice to say that all we need to do is to keep loving the prog and supporting it by sharing it with others. And hope that it's not killed by the mainstream, mass produced "music" that plagues the industry.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 12:19
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As long as Bieber is around I don't think we have to worry about that. Bieber is our secret weapon.
------------- |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 13:23
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Why exactly is prog so expensive? Old Van der Graff Generator albums were all £13 in HMV last week, which used to be the price of a brand new album a few years ago. New releases are all under £10 in the same shop. They sell more, so they are a lower price..... BUT how can something so old be so much? It makes no difference how much they are because 99% of those album's sales have already occured in the 70's. Whether 4 people or even 7 people but Pawn Hearts this week, is not going to make a difference to HMV's declining sales. Grrr.... this is actually the most common reason why us young people download illegally. It isn't because we have no morals...... or because we won't pay........ but because we can't pay! University fees are gonna be sky-high and I'm trying to buy an album a week at an average price of over £10 (which is what.... $15?). If it weren't for the lovely sleeves and album covers... I would be resorting to free downloads by now. ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 13:41
Because HMV has decided in their wisdom, based on market researches, that the demographics that buys those albums are between 35 and 55, have an income of minimum 50k, attended private schools, have 2.8 grown up children and lives in 350k and upwards houses/mansions. In other words; prog rock was made by the middle classes for the middle classes. This is still the case in 2011 as it was in 1975. HMV knows that and they are maximising their profits knowing well that a £ 13 album is not a luxury item if you earn £ 1200 a week. Another evidence is the Classic Rock Present Prog magazine and it's cover charge price (see my interview with them). Sorry, but I have reasons to believe this is the truth. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 13:48
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Well 10 pounds is over $ 20 Canadian and right now & our money is just about on par with the US. There's one store whre I live in Montréal who actually has a prog section ( both CDs and Vintyl ) but he wants an arm & leg for them. When I started collecting back in the seventies you could get a used double album like TFTO for $4.50 which is what I paid for mine in 1976 or 77 ( I was in grade 10 ). New imports were expensive back then going for about $15-$20 for a single LP. What gets me is all these box sets and DVDs that are flooding the market. Who want's to pay almost $200 for every Led Zep album remastered by Jimmy Page plus maybe a "rare" performance in 1973. Prog is a tough sell these days except for the exceptional tribute bands and the older guys who still play the oldies. ------------- |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 13:57
------------- What? |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 14:20
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HMV in Canada is starting to sell books, magazines, video games, downlaods action figures of rock stars ( lots of Bieber ) , posters ( tons of Beiber ) vinyl ( yes they have a vinyl section and it is growing, halejula ! even Bieber is on vinyl ). I've seen Tarkus & Close To The Edge. Wonder if Close To The Edge has the original booklet? The vinyl DSOTM is reproduced with the poster and stickers.
------------- |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 14:28
Answer: Those who were there in the 1970s as students and who are now earning 100 000 Canadian dollars as solicitors, doctors, civil servants, etc etc etc They are the ones snapping up these boxes. And I fully understand them as a middle aged man (
Spot on, Ian. A good example is The Watch. I hope to bring an interview with them later on just to underpin your thesis on this, Ian. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 15:49
It's not worth the price ... the two best LZ boots ever were "Live on Blueberry Hill" and "Bonzo's Birthday Party" (there are actually 3 boots from 3 different nights in LA and this is one of them!) ...
And Jimmy touching them is a crime, and he needs to get whooped for it! His touching of things in "How The West Was Won" is horrendous and took out the energy that was there before ... it sounded way better on the old bootleg with bad recording quality, than it did on these CD's ...
Sometimes reality and truth is the great equalizer! When it comes to energy! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 15:58
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Hi,
VERY LARGE SOAPBOX!
I can see a database with the promoters and such ... but here in Portland, the clubs have their own this and that and getting those agents' names is literally impossible. I can give you the club names and phone numbers and if you call them, you will get put on hold and the call dropped! ... dime a dozen baby ... and if you have to call ... you're not worth it!
In the end, one will find the way, IF they want to ... you can not stop the Beatles ... you can not stop the Rolling Stones ... no one stopped the Kinks ... no one stopped The Who ... and no one will stop the new band ... that is wanting to get a gig and the owner of the venue is being a jerk ... in the end, that owner is the one that is going to lose the most and be out of business!
The biggest concern I have is laziness ... and then a band feeling that they are owed a red carpet to stardom, and them telling PA ... get fudged!
We do what we can to help ... but I'm not sure that I have the time to go out of my way and help sell this band or that band ... not to mention the health for it!
Musicians, and bands, and what not, like all artists, need to make a decision ... you either go for it ... or you go home. It's that simple.
The rest ... it won't matter what we say here, and no one will care. But if ANY band thinks that we can help them gain stardom, they are sadly mistaken and in the end, they will be the ones pulling the rope to hurt us!
We stick to what we do. The band sticks to what it does ... anything else is a treat and a bonus ... save the energy for your children ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: DavidMinasian
Date Posted: February 21 2011 at 19:17
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A great topic! As a new artist on the scene, I for one am extremely grateful to someone like AtomicCrimsonRush who, along with Ken Levine, helped get me launched here on ProgArchives. ACR was the first to write of review of the album which was quite extensive and well thought out. Obviously my album connected with him and this obviously was enough to help motivate him to invest his valuable time to write his review and assist with setting up my page here on PA. Other reviews such as those by Tarciscio Moura and Lazland were so wonderful, I had to respond with letters of thanks. I can't help but think that such accolades have helped boost sales. Bonnek has a good point. A website featuring nothing but reviews designed to boost sales really would be pointless. His review of my album was less than flattering, but that's ok. If a review is well written, whether negative or positive, the reader should be able to tell from the review whether or not the album might be to his or her taste and therefore worth investigating. Things are a lot different today than when I first tried my hand in the music business during the mid 80's. I wanted to do prog, the record company A&R execs said no, and that was the end of it - I went into filmmaking as a career instead. Today, with ProTools and a Mac, I can get great quality without having to pay a studio $200 per hour to record. And with the internet and with being signed to an indie record company like ProgRock Records, I can get my music out all over the world. Within a week of the release of my album, I had fans contacting me from all over the world, from Poland, Mozambique, Brazil, etc. It was incredible. Having Andy Latimer from Camel appear as a guest on the album (his contributions were magical) obviously gave the album a higher profile than it would have coming from an unknown artist like myself. Of course the hard cold facts are that I will probably never make any money from this. If you google "David Minasian Random Acts of Beauty" you'll get 29,300 results. Approx 25,000 of those appear to be from illegal download sites. I might do one or two more albums in the years to come but it will solely be for the fun of it. I'd do 20 more if it wasn't for piracy.  Best; David Minasian ------------- http://www.davidminasian.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.davidminasian.com/ |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 22 2011 at 16:37
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^ Thanks for this reaction, even if I thought the music lacked professional recording qualities, your response proves you are an artist with a really professional attitude regarding this whole matter! And by the way, I don't like my review at all, your album is better |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 22 2011 at 17:38
Its so great to hear from you David. As you know I have the utmpost respect for your work that is virtually textbook to the style that I prefer in prog. I hope you can make more cds in future. And if I can in my small way contribute to you getting more exposure in the music scene I can only say I am grateful for the experience. I woulod loike to connect with more artists tha I am now in future as it makes this all worthwhile. I am rewarded by the fact that I am at least making a difference to some artists in the prog scene, and I know I am not alone. We reviewers, collabd and the admins here should feel rewarded, and the more artists connect with us the better this site will run.
We can still remain impartial as that makes the site trustworthy but we should also remember that our input, our reviews can effect an artist, integirty is the key as has been posted. The reality is we are ambassadors of prog when we become integrated into websites like this. As ambassadors we are accountable and should take our input seriously. If we stop doing that and are only in it for ourselves, thats when we should go elsewhere. If prog artists beleive and state that they dont need reviewers and exposure online they are not living in the real world. It is the comercial artists that dont need us as they are supported by radio airplay and magazines. One bad review of the latest lady GaGa that I post is not going to make a scrap of difference.
One negative/bad review of a new and upcoming prog band could hurt sales considerably. Thats because they dont have the back up and support of the mainstream money making commercial machine. Look at Bieber! We all hate him here but he will sell millions more than the latest Transatlantic - which is better? It doesnt matter cos Bieber is a money making machine alone. He will sell albums despite a thousand negative/bad reviews from us. -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 22 2011 at 20:03
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I think prog artists should pay us to promote their music.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 22 2011 at 20:29
Beer?
Cigars?
Viagra?
A trip to the Zoo?
Not sure that money is what I want!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 04:35
Sorry but I entirely disagree with your "reality". We are nobody's ambassador and reviews shouldn't pretend to be anything else but a personal reflection on the album at hand. On top, a review should only take the music into account, not the artist's feelings. Or are artists 5-year-olds that need constant positive confirmation from us? I'm sure from David's post above that he certainly isn't. Besides, negative reviews don't put sales down at all, it's downloading and the massive amount of releases that water down sales. If anything, a 2-star review from me can be the perfect cue for someone else to buy the album instantly! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 04:58
Agreed-- besides, we do promote Prog artists; we do take our input seriously; we do make an impact. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 08:19
And you state "On top, a review should only take the music into account, not the artist's feelings." Did I mention otherwise? Stop trying to put words into my mouth and read between the lines. I made no such comment. Of course we don't take the artists feelings totally into account, we are reviewing a piece of art and it is a subjective action on our part, but nevertheless it will make an impact on the artist's livelihood and we at least should bear that in mind, or do we need to become insensitive for that frame of thinking? We are not dealing with mindless automotons, these are people who have poured in their heart and soul into their work. We still remain impartial, with integrity and honesty but we need to justify our reviews, good or bad. -------------
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Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 08:48
If we had got Viagra, we would not had been reviewing albums. So that argument is self-defeating. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 08:59
 ^^^
 -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 08:59
If you don't go to see a movie or buy a CD because 6 people tell you it sucks, what faith do you have in your own judgement? I appreciate we all want to make an informed choice about what we buy but when it comes to something as unquantifiable as the arts we surely have to use our own nous. For all its faults PA does in my opinion represent a community where the majority 'herd' mentality is mercifully minimal (Isn't Prog such a niche market of popular music that its fans are habitually contra-trendy?) With regards the artists feelings, I do genuinely applaud your sensitivity to how opinion may impact on their livelihood but ain't this the first step towards censorship of criticism? (and I'm sure you would deplore reciprocal censorship of artists) Sorry to sound so harsh but we really are under no obligation whatsoever to promote any artists work full stop. ------------- 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 09:11
We make informed choices as to our personal tastes but reviewers have subliminal impact whether we know it or not.
We are under no obligation to promote artists work but we are in a position where we CAN if we choose, not so much by reviews but other things such as discussing them in forums, or other places. We can't fall prey to the first step towards censorship of criticism either, agreed. I have no problems with any of what you are saying there. I reviewed the latest Sigur Ros as a dismal effort with 2 stars. Do I care what Sigue Ros think, Am I concerned about album sales? - not in the slightest. Sigur Ros should not be producing trash like this after being in the business so long. But I still beleive there are certain independent artists just starting out with their debuts, that require more sensitivity that these popular artists. I am not saying we rate their albums a masterpeice, far from it, what I am saying is that surely we give them some credit as it is the first album. And having just started out, our reviews are likely to make more of an impact on their success or continued CD sales. -------------
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 09:18
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Anybody ever get emails from bands or companies offering $500 to write a favourable review? I have got a few in the past but passed.
------------- |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 09:21
Fair enough with regards to 'independant artists just starting out' e.g. our very own Robert (Epignosis) whose home made debut CD I reviewed and gave 3 stars was weighted in favour of a self financed and self produced album i.e. had this been his 2nd or subsequent release I would have rated it lower. However, that's my choice to take such criteria into consideration, as you have to bear in mind that if a product is made available for purchase, any consumer has the right to criticise the work if they see fit. So I do think sensitivity of this type is appropriate for a specific and very limited number of artists (morally yes for me) but aesthetically no, as you confirm re Sigur Ros - if you put it up, we are free to take aim. -------------
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 09:51
No you didn't, don't be so sensitive. It was a point made somewhere earlier in the thread.
Well I'm sure it doesn't. I take it everybody is wise enough to listen to something before buying. And a negative review might be just as good a motiviation to listen as a positive review. There's no such thing as bad advertisement, some people say. And the thing about bearing any of those assumed consequences in mind, I answer with a definite no, that's censorship. If my customers want to criticize me in front of my boss they shouldn't consider that I could lose my job. If their criticism is right then I need to bear any consequences. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 10:09
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 11:17
| Non issue. Ratings of fan reviews eventually get balanced out and rare is the case where a roundly panned album is a shimmering masterpiece. Professional critics and record labels do a lot more damage to artists and since we are powerless to stop that, why should pressure be brought on fans to temper genuine and sincere criticism? And if ratings are so make or break, the consequence of asking fans to be 'considerate' would be that people would eventually be faced with high ratings for mediocre albums and lose faith in the judgment of this or any other website's reviewers. So, there you go. |
Posted By: DavidMinasian
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 11:35
Hmm... might be a good idea to keep these two separate  ------------- http://www.davidminasian.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.davidminasian.com/ |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 14:10
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Going back to David's original point re illegal sites when you Google the album, I've just done that. Top of the list was David's website, and next were Amazon & HMV (this might be because I shop at these quite a lot, I don't really know how google works). But it isn't long before you get to the interminable file sharing sites. We were actually talking about this at work today, and a colleague came up with an interesting idea/thought. Like me, he is a music nut, although very little of it is prog. He gave me a scenario whereby, for example, he has all of Deep Purple's 1970's output on vinyl. Why, he asked, would he want to pay a further £7 to £10 per download when he had already paid his royalties to the band for tjhe original copy? However, the last couple of albums, he has paid legal downloads to Amazon. Unlike me, he will not pay a lot of money for a decent vinyl to digital converter. Therefore, he argued, would it not be possible for the industry, governments, and artists, in partnership, to allow free sharing or downloads of albums that were originally released on vinyl prior to a certain date, and then police a system whereby new work HAS to be downloaded legally, paid for, with sites closed down for breaching such an agreement/law? I personally think it would be difficult to enforce such a law or agreement, but surely to goodness, the industry simply must come to accept that the present model simply isn't working. The way to survive is to adapt and change along with consumer's actions. Marillion, as an example, have done this very well. As for ProgArchives, we are not professional reviewers, and neither should we be treated as such. We are enthusiasts who, to the credit of the site, have gained an excellent reputation in the prog rock community. We should always ensure that our reviews are honest, dispassionate, and as if it were appearing in a professional publication. As David said, a negative review is okay, as long as it is an honest one. I personally was thrilled when David sent me a PM. I had no idea he was a member of the site. Lastly, it really would be a great shame if Random Acts Of Beauty were to be a rarity of a release from him. If that is because of the financial issues, especially around the free download sites, then I repeat - a different model for the industry is desperately needed. I'm off to take the viagra now. No, hold on. The nearest zoo is about two hundred miles away. Oh well, another pint of Brains SA bitter then ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: DavidMinasian
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 15:21
Um, could you forward those onto me please?  ------------- http://www.davidminasian.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.davidminasian.com/ |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 23 2011 at 16:26
Put it this way, can you trust a guy who is is just getting paid for doing a job, perhaps he is just a journalist who is reviewing as part of his journalist job. So how well do they really know the music, do they understand it, and do they have any love for the music apart from a cold, clinical outlook on the technical side of the music and whether or not it appeals to their biased taste in music. The reviews are usually short, and barely mention songs, there is no detail, they dont tell you what to expect, and a lot of it is just demonstrating how well they can handle the English language and how cynical they can come across. I rarely take them into account. I read them but then compare them to reviews online here. One reviewer in Classic Rock Presents Prog said that the album by And you will know them by the trail of the dead..... was an excellent prog album and i beleived him. I bought the album and took it home and was furious that it sounded lie a bunch of punk junk. I took it back and just spun a tale that I could not play it (true as i hated it so much) and ended up swapping it with extra cash with an Ayreon box set "Timeline". A masterpeice!
Ok onto the trust of reviews here. So if I want to find out what the latest Radiohead is like, I would not bother with the professional reviews, rather I would jump on here and see what the fans think; the people who genuiniely love and care for the music. I would rather read a passionate review from the likes of say, Sean Trane, Bonnek, Conor Fynes or Epignosis, than some perfunctory spouting off by the professionals in magazines or online. At least I can trust the reviews on PA because there is a genuineness to them and a real passion for the music, so if all the reviewers are saying Radiohead's album is one of the best and they were stunned at the musicianship and concepts, etc, I am going to take serious notice. Thus Radiohead have now sold another album. One that they wouldn't have sold had they been relying soely on magazine reviewers.
Some final thoughts - I actually know a lot of pro reviewers are only journalists who were practically forced into the job. A local movie reviewer was a journalist for our newspaper and he was forced into reviewing movies as nobody else was available. The problem is he doesnt like movies! So when he trashes some of the best films i have seen it is understandable. He is an atheist too and absolutely trashes any movie that mentions Jesus or has a Christmas message. One of his reviews for a Christmas movie started off with "Save me from Christmas". The joke going around my city, is if that reviewer hates it then it must be brilliant.
He has a reputation for being biased and untrustworthy.At least the reviewers here have my respect and respect is earned not given, and over the years I have rarely been disapppointed wth an album that is highly recommended by the prog community here. Many albums I have bought as a result of the reviews here, debuts from Astra, Frequency by IQ, al lthe Ayreon albums, to name but a few. -------------
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 13:41
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All the reviewers here in Montréal know f**k all about the arts. The French language reviewers are a bit better. The guy reviewing movies for The Montréal Gazette ( English daily ) went from bad music reviewer to worse movie reviewer because there was nobody else. I could swear the guy reviews the movies by watching the trailers! I just read a review for a Tom Waits concert that appeared in a 2005 issue of Mojo. Couldn't a magazine of that "stature" find someone to send to the first Tom Waits concert in Britain in 17 years? Guy didn't even know who Tom was and wrote the article as if Tom was 2005's latest discovery. I think that this place is a great place to go for background on albums. I always try to throw in some trivia to spike it up a bit. As I said earlier I think reviews are more important to newer acts. ------------- |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 13:46
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For sure sites like PA with its reviews, ratings and forums are influential, I have no idea how much quantitatively, but they are. I have purchased quite some albums because of what I read about them. I am just one name in PA but there are more invisible people behind me, all of my prog friends are not good at english so they do not directly read and participate in PA, but they get information from me and they also buy albums because of what I share with them.
(Good) musicians and bands undoubtedly can benefit from this promotion, it's another miracle of the net, as long as the work is good the public will do the marketing for them, mouth to mouth, all over the world, and it will not cost them a penny. In this respect I don't want to talk about the complaints about the harm of file sharing...
But as others have said, we have to be careful with the thing of reviews and ratings. I guess we all have our "personal little masterpieces", albums we love and which for some reason are not widely recognized, either they are unknown, ignored, or people miss to find the right "click" with them which we did.
If we would just have followed the mass opinion ("mass" in prog context means always a small minority anyway) we would have probably never discovered them.
So we have to think the same towards unknown albums, the opinion of other people can be a helpful guideline but it is no guarantee that you will not love the album in question. Trust only your own brain.
Somehow related to this is the status of 3-star albums. If we purchase albums based on PA ratings, people would probably concentrate on 4 & 5 star albums. I myself have to frequently remind myself that 3-star albums I do not know are very probably GOOD albums, and if I feel that they may fit my taste I will likely not regret my purchase. I have purchased 4 and 5-star albums which were not really my cup of tea, while I'm sure that I would have enjoyed much more many 3 (or even 2?) -star albums fitting my taste.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 15:11
And how very sad indeed it would be for a lot of arts! ... well, I suppose we could add "body painting" and other exotic arts! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 16:35
1 stars are easy to find. These are the prog stinkers. That's the albums that have no redeeming values whatsoever, or are universally panned, 1 small song that is good will still not be enough for more than 1 star rating. Many of these are obsolete compilations of the best of a band. Useless albums that will not be necessary to the prog addict. The albums will become known as disasters, and the reviews are usually cynically hilarious and worth reading. Many in this category become the talking points of forums and raise their ugly heads constantly as in joke. eg: St Anger, Love Beach, In The Hot Seat, The Final Cut, Q2K, See Ya Round.
2 stars are marginally better and not a complete waste of time but are disappointing. There are redeeming values, perhaps 3 good songs, and they are collectors items. They gather dust but during a year certain tracks will be played, if not the whole album. eg: Radio-Activity, In Search of the Lost Chord, Journey to the Centre of the Earth, 90125, Crisis? What Crisis? Atom Heart Mother, The Aerosol grey Machine.
3 stars are the hardest choice for me. They are half good albums, half mediocre. I guess they are good enough for a listen, worthwhile but not albums you will likely return to over and over. But a once a year listen will not hurt. Debut albus often come under the 3 star category, the best is yet to come. If an album has some shining moments but are still a bit disappointing I rate them a 3 but its always a tough choice. eg: The Snow Goose, Future Days, The Crane Wife, Faust IV, Trespass, War Child, Autobahn.
4 stars are the most rated category I noted. Not quite masterpeices but still look great in any collection. The albums have everything the discerning music connoiseur loves. It delivers a whole album of great tracks, with a few medicore moments stopping the masterpeice rating. Some rough edges may be enough to lessen its rating but they are not to be missed. The albums are highly recommended and are likely to stay in the CD player on repeat. The albums grow on you over time and become fan favourites. Some eventually reach masterpeice rating over a period of time. eg: Hybris, Tarkus, Moonmadness, Octavarium, Nadir's Big Chance, Angel's Egg.
5 stars are also easy to find as they are the ones that have an immediate impact on the listener. Ther eis no doubt that the album is one of the greatest you have heard. The masterpiece is not to be taken lightly, and there are not that many of them, especially for a debut artist, but they are out there and are universally celebrated. They are well known in the prog community, become legendary in their own tight, and are definitive essential purposes, often being at the top of music fans all time greatest albums lists. eg: Dark Side of the Moon, Foxtrot, The Human Equation, Pawn Hearts, Close to the Edge, Thick as a Brick, In the Court of the Crimson King, Brain Salad Surgery, Moving Pictures, Frequency, The Weirding. -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 16:59
When giving examples of albums that fit ratings you really should give examples that are universally regarded to produce those kinds of scores and not just those that you believe should. The Final Cut is a solid 3-star averaging album - it's not generally seen to be a 1-star album by over 90% of the people who have reviewed it. SImilar statements can be made for all the other albums you cite. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 17:15
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I don't believe a one star album is worth reviewing and I've become more, ugh, conservative about dishing out the fivers
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 06:13
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Thinking about this and the impact of good reviews of a band on this site, I wonder what Torman Maxt would say? ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 11:56
That\s your opinion/ bias. I think a better system is something like: 5 stars: I really love this album 4 stars: I love this album 3 stars: I enjoy this 2: seems kind of weak to me, but not that bad 1. I really don't like this album It doesn't need saying, but ratings are ultimately subjective. What is a masterpiece to one might be a stinker to another. Atom heart Mother is my favourite album that Pink Floyd worked on (I really respect Geeson's work on the suite). Dark Side of the Moon I like, but do not enjoy as much so I would not rate it as highly. What bothers me with reviews is when people act like they're being objective, that their opinion holds some universal truth. I don't try to promote music, but I like to share my enthusiasm for music (in my case through the fora). I would not rate something high just because it's commonly held to be excellent or important, or vice versa -- the ratings are a reflection of my taste. The Final Cut is not universally panned. A good review is insightful, of course, and should show good knowledge of the style. What I dislike is when reviews make claims in an objective manner that are really subjective, and when they come off as self-important. Sticking with Floyd, and I'm not saying you should not express your opinion (though i think making certain claims about others is unfair), but I genuinely like A Saucerful of Secrets very much -- I prefer it to most Floyd albums. You gave it a two and wrote at the end of your review "Contrary to popular belief, not everything Floyd touched was pure gold, in fact some of their early material stinks like yesterday's diapers, and unless you were stoned to the hilt, you would have thought this album was a yawnfest. People pretend to understand it, but there is no thread of reason throughout. I realise Floydians will gush over this album, simply because it is iconic Floyd with the legend in his own mind, Barrett in all his insane glory, but just because it is iconic and from the psychedelic 60s does not necessarily mean the actual music is any good. Well, now I have released all that anguish I can move on to a better album from Floyd; take your pick, this effort is a bottom of the barrel doped up Saucerful of Secretions! Collectors Only!" Not a yawnfest to me and I avoid narcotics, nor do I pretend to understand the album, I just like it very much. I don't give ratings heed unless it''s by people with very similar tastes to myself, and there are quite a few with overall fairly mediocre ratings that I love. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:04
I think that's the key, and I am very similar. There are people on the site who I know I have little in common with as far as musical tastes are concerned, so I generally will not decide on their reviews alone. Those whose tastes match mine well and who I respect as a reviewer, I will take notice of. And, yes, as subjective as we all try to be, the fact is that all reviews are a reflection of the opinion of the reviewer, i.e. objective. It is difficult to avoid really, even amongst professionals in the press. as a good example, Geoff Barton did a review of Blackmore's Night a few years ago in Classic Rock magazine. I forget which album it was, but the entire review was basically a rant as to how much he hated Blackmore's music since ditching Purple, and how he wished he would become "The Man In Black" again. I happen to like the Blackmore's Night albums, but if I had not heard any of them, to be honest, all I would have got from that particular review was a huge amount of bile, which is not the point of a review. I do think it is possible to express a personal opinion in a way that people reading will learn and respect. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 12:55
The description of the music from a review that happens to be negative can be useful too, it happened to me to pick up albums based on negative but fair reviews from people here who I know what they like, what they don't, any why. A lot of the music on PA that interests me has little following and sometimes I'm lucky if there is one review for the album at all, so in time I developed the ability to see "through" the reviewers tastes and whims and extract the actual information.  |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:35
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Oh dear. Looks like I really need to read Scott's reviews. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:41
Good post. Just expanding on with related ideas: respect is really important for me when taking opinions into account. I have taken into account reviews by people whose tastes I know to be quite different from mine if I respected the way they put themselves across, both in reviews and knowing them from the fora. I've been reading your reviews and enjoying them, but then I respect you from the fora because i appreciate your attitude and thoughts. Not to get side-tracked, but thanks to a review of yours I\ve been really enjoying an old fave of mine, Who's Next? If I\ve been looking to expand my music al horizons, and they are always expanding and my tastes are malleable (different flavours of the day that interest me), it\s important to me that I feel that person has an appreciation for/ considerable knowledge of the category that the album is in that they are reviewing. It'\s also important to me that I feel that the person has strong grasp on the album (too often people review after one listen without giving much consideration). Though I may find them entertaining, I discount bashing reviews. There are those ones that try to sound cynically hip that don\t do it for me. And those that have biased to what they want expectations of music that bash can be really terrible. One should try to review an album on its own merits, and not like in the case of that Blackmore=s Night reviewer, rant about what style that person should have stuck in the reviewer's opinion to. One thing that makes me discount a review is when a person makes claims that are not accurate, expresses a lot of hyperbole, is dismissive of others who appreciate it (disrespectful), and acts as if they know better than others, and tells other people what they should think of the album. I want to trust that that person "gets" the album, and has a good understanding of music, and a decent understanding of music theory and the style if trying to be objective about the qualities of the music. Absolutist statements such as, "this is not music", this lacks melody and harmony et cetera often indicates ignorance about musical forms (as well as terminology). If people recognise their own ignoirance about musical form in reviews instead of making dubious/false claims, and resorting to hyperbole, I\m much more forgiving. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 13:59
Thanks Greg - I really appreciate those comments ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 08:33
However, at least i can speak for myself, there are only a bare minimum of 1 star albums I have reviewed, so they are rather rare, and 2 star albums are collectors only, and there are heaps of collectors out there so it makes little difference to a collector - eg: I read horrendous reviews of Hot Seat by ELP but still bought the Cd with that knowledge. The reviews are still highly entertaining as humour is easier to find in disliking something. But I take all the collab reviews seriously on albums I am interested in. It doesnt matter who they are, at times I wont even check who the reviewer is. To me it is whether the review is well written, not attacking the music so much, tho that has its place, but whether it makes sense and is true to the attitude of the reviewer. eg: I recently read most reviews for the new Radiohead CD as I am genuinely interested. They made for some enlightening reading! I know at least what not to expect, and I have an understanding of what I can expect. It takes the surprise element out and tells the reader what is on the album in terms of musical style, lyric and more importantly the overall feel of the album, does it work musically, emotionally or is it enjoyable to the listener? This is why I value all these reviews; it is the only place to come for me when I am interested in finding out about an album. -------------
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 11:45
| I think there is a very positive outlook to consider. Progarchives offers the opportunity to display some of your original music on a thread, members might be positive or negative toward the material and you actually get the chance to hear other's viewpoints and suggestions. You have to consider that this is very educational in the experience itself. Rogerthat, Moshkito and so many others have important information and suggestions to make. They may not want to listen to your music anyway but it's worthwhile to stick your neck out and learn something from members that you can apply to your life in music. You personally may not have the desire to promote or indulge yourself in the music business and I'm not presenting that option to anyone. It's fun listening to musician's original music on the Music Exchange forum. I've heard some really interesting pieces on that forum. Prog Archives is great because you can meet musicians and network together with them. |