The thin line between power and prog.
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7976
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Topic: The thin line between power and prog.
Posted By: Retrovertigo
Subject: The thin line between power and prog.
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 20:27
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A lot of people have said certain metal bands are not prog-metal, but
rather power metal. I don't understand this, because prog-metal
is simply metal that is different, innovative, and contains the
classical and symphonic structures of a lot of prog. There is
more prog-metal than you guys think. A lot of the switching time
signatures, epic songs, conceptual albums and classically influenced
playing along with innovation can be found outside of the archives
here. I think these bands should be added. (I'd post this in Bands and Albums but it's more than a suggesting bands topic) To learn more of these bands, visit their respective overviews on http://www.allmusic.com - allmusic where each of these bands are listed as progressive metal. Here are a track by each, if it doesn't sound proggy enough to you, remember that bands have more than one song, I just thought I'd provide at least a song. Try to compare what you hear to some of the prog-metal bands we have already like Dream Theater, it's the best indicator. Avantasia: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/Avantasia_ChaliceofAgony_MetalOpera2.mp3 - MP3: Chalice of Agony ) Borknagar: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/Borknagar_TheOlderDomain_TheDawnOfTheEnd.mp3 - MP3: The Dawn of the End ) Iced Earth: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/IcedEarth_TheDarkSaga_IDiedForYou.mp3 - MP3: I Died For You ) Into Eternity: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/IntoEternity_DeadorDreaming_deadordreaming.mp3 - MP3: Dead or Dreaming ) Katatonia Lacuna Coil: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/LacunaCoil_InAReverie_MyWings.mp3 - MP3: My Wings ) Madder Mortem: ( http://www.centurymedia.de/century/mainarea/audio.aspx?id=madder_mortem__necropol_lit_56.rm - Real Media: Necropol Lit ) Mental Home: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/mentalhome_Upon_eternal1.mp3 - MP3: Eternal Moan ) Mnemic: ( http://www.nuclearblast.de/media/NB_1310.ram - Real Media: Deathbox ) Nevermore: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/nevermore_dead_riverdragon.mp3 - MP3: The Riverdragon Has Come ) Nocturnal Rites: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/NocturnalRites_TheSacredTalisman_TheIronForce.mp3 - MP3: The Iron Force ) Onward: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/onward_EyeoftheNightmare_Reawaken.mp3 - MP3: Eye of the Nightmare ) Ram-Zet: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/RamZet_Queen_Escape.mp3 - MP3: Queen ) Skyclad Sonata Arctica: ( http://www.centurymedia.de/century/mainarea/audio.aspx?id=sonata_arctica__the_cage_73.rm - Real Media: The Cage )  Tad Morose: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/TadMorose_NuclearSkies_MattersoftheDark.mp3 - MP3: Matters of the Dark ) Throne of Chaos: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/ThroneOfChaos_JohnnyBDead_Pervertigo.mp3 - MP3: Johnny B. Dead ) Tiamat: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/Tiamat_Wildhoney_Gaia.mp3 - MP3: Gaia ) Warmen: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/Warmen_TripTo_BeyondAbilities.mp3 - MP3: Trip To ) If any of you think any of these aren't prog, I can discuss it. Hopefully Max or Maani can check this out, because this could be a whole lot more stuff for the archives. |
Replies:
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 20:32
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I saw and liked Skyclad once, because they use a violin too; the rest means nothing to me. But I'm not especially a pro metal expert. I am very fond of the founders of that genre too (which are High Tide). -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Retrovertigo wrote:Posted By: Retrovertigo
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 20:35
| Yes, Skyclad is cool. |
Posted By: Duncan
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:04
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For most power metal bands, though, the symphonic, classical influences
and epic themes are just bombastic, substanceless aesthetic. It's not
musically progressive and doesn't try to be. Time-changes aren't
exclusive to prog either, and some of those bands take a lot from
thrash in particular. There are certainly metal bands out there that are more progressive than they're given credit for, but let's not be wooed by technical competence and soaring vocals, shall we? (I'm not going to comment on Dream Theater.) I like Skyclad. Martin Walkyier is (was?) an absolutely fantastic lyricist. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:09
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Katatonia's a brilliant band. I really like 'em, I'd say they're
more doom than anything, but... a LOT of doom has some extremely
proggy roots.
------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:11
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Sonata Arctica is so awesome! I love them for sure. However, there is a difference.
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Posted By: Retrovertigo
Date Posted: June 24 2005 at 21:35
| I'm saying that there are prog-metal bands here similar to or as proggy as the bands I've listed, and we should have these bands. They're doing things that are very innovative. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 04:26
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Sonata Arctica play Speed Metal. I know why you think they might be Progressive Metal, and I like them very much (especcially Winterheart's Guild and Silence), but I don't think they fit in here. In fact, I think the problem is that bands like Rhapsody and Haggard are included, which are really not progressive, but neo-classical metal (and baroque-ish). Many people think like that: Progressive Metal is all music from the Metal genre that is innovative, progressive or simply very complex and sophisticated. This includes many of the bands you have mentioned AND Rhapsody and Haggard (they're reasonably more complex than your average Metal band). The problem with this definition is that then 50% of all metal bands could be called progressive ... if they do a time signature change, they're progressive, if they use violins or flutes, they're progressive. That's no good either. IMO there's really no way to define Prog Metal, it's entirely subjective. The only thing that annoys me is that including Rhapsody, Nightwish and Haggard is inconsistent with the strong opposition that bands like Muse are facing - or other Prog Metal bands that are objectively (judging by reviews on other websites, and common sense) 10x more progressive than the aforementioned bands. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: geezer
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 05:04
There has to be a line somewhere because this is prog site. Prog metal is a genre that I do not listen but I have nothing against it that there are prog metal bands in this site. If these bands that you listed would be added in this site it would basically justify all bands that are labelled metal in the archives. These listed bands are generally considered metal, not prog. Bands shouldn't be added just because there is a minority who thinks it can also be labelled as prog-metal. I didn't listen to any of the samples but from those bands I have heard a little from Avantasia, Iced Earth, Katatonia, Lacuna coil, Nevermore, Nocturnal Rites, Sonata Arctica, Tad Morose, Tiamat and Warmen. I'm sorry, but it is impossible for me to see these bands in the archives. None of these bands are considered prog-metal even in the metal community but some other sub-genre of metal! In my opinion this is the key thing. A band should be considered prog-metal in the metal community before we can talk about adding it to the archives! Bands like Dream Theater and Pain of Salvation are considered prog-metal also in the metal community and these bands are in the archives and certainly belong here. Then again, there is already bands like Rhapsody which is not considered prog-metal even in the metal community and shouldn't be here. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 05:25
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geezer: It should be pointed out that many metal bands that are generally accepted to be progressive metal are not listed on this site. None of the bands that he listed, but still plenty. I agree on what you're saying, but as I stated in my post, much of the confusion is caused by "borderline" bands that are already listed, like Radiohead in post-rock and Nightwish in prog-metal. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: geezer
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 05:37
Yes, you are right. Even I have heard prog-metal that is not in the archives but could be in my opinion. All I said is that everything i have heard from the above list is not prog-metal in my opinion. I'm confused why people always suggest these speed and power metal bands etc. that clearly are not prog. Is it just because they like these bands? I don't think that it's a good enough reason for the addition. They should suggest the lesser known prog metal bands. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 05:53
I did, just recently, and only 2-3 people replied. I think we have to live with the fact that prog metal is not the top priority here. I mean, I suggest Adagio, which is a well known band, and it is ignored. Instead, obscure bands from the 70s that I will never even be able to get to know because their albums are out of print ... these bands are being added. I don't agree with that, but I accepted it. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: geezer
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 06:15
In my opinion the rareness of a band shouldn't effect on the decision if a band is added or not in any way. The truth is that the majority of progressive rock bands in the archives are very little known because prog is very marginal music. There are some out of print albums but even these are constanly re-released at least in small quantities by small labels. I can't comment on Adagio because I haven't heard them. However, I do not agree that prog metal is not supported here, just the opposite. If we look at the different sub-genres symphonic, art-rock, rio, canterbury, krautrock, folk, fusion, zeuhl, avantgarde, prog metal etc. i would say that symphonic and prog metal are clearly the most popular ones. |
Posted By: Johnny-The-Fox
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 06:51
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Concerning the bands I know: Tiamat - I´m wondering this band is not included in the archives? Wild Honey is definitely progressive Lacuna Coil - only a metal band to me Skyclad - rather folk influences than progressive elements Nevermore - I consider them as a metal band (listen to their last album "Enemies Of Reality"), but every prog metal fan should have heard "Dead Heart, In A Dead World" |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 07:17
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I just think that a band that is currently releasing records which are considered to be masterpieces on many important prog websites deserves more attention than obscure 70s bands. I'm not distinguishing between rock and metal here. If you're interested in Adagio: I've posted a thread and included links to audio samples. Any feedback, be it positive or negative, is welcome! Regarding your list of sub genres of prog rock: I think that Progressive Metal isn't a subgenre of Progressive Rock, I think it rather goes like this:
Edit: I included some more metal subgenres to prove my point. Before you complain, please mind that most of these bands are already listed in the archives. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: vogre
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 07:45
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Come on, how the hell can you call a band progressive if their whole(!) rythm section consists of double-bass drumming and simple bass line. What makes them progressive? The fast guitar\keyboard classical inspired passages. This is power metal, and it was power metal for long time so why should you argue. Personally, enjoy some of it, but overall it's a very boring genre.
I can agree on part of the bands being progressive. I can hear when a band is more technical with more interesting drum fills, breaks, changing riffs, varied bass lines etc.
I can clearly see how Tiamat are Floyd inspired, and Katatonia have art-rock influeces too. Some of the avant\post\prog-black metal bands are also interesting. |
Posted By: geezer
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 07:55
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Those weren't sub-genres of Progressive Rock!!! Those were sub-genres of PROG!!! 
You can't present the prog tree like you have done, there shouldn't be any metal bands under progressive music! In general, your tree is totally f**ked up. What are all those other metal sub-genres doing under progressive metal. I rather not think it the way that progressive metal is "against" all progressive rock and it's sub-genres. Your knowledge of prog music is very limited or biased if you think it this way. You should rather think how popular prog metal is compared to the other sub-genres like I already said. Haven't you noticed that people in this board who like progressive rock almost never like all the sub-genres (symphonic, art-rock, rio, canterbury, krautrock, folk, fusion, zeuhl, avantgarde, neo-prog etc.), usually only a few? Why should prog-metal be somehow special compared to these? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:05
What band are you talking about? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:14
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geezer: It's ok, I expected strong opposition on that one. Prog Metal is special because it is not based on Rock, but Metal. All subgenres of Prog Rock are based on Rock music. Prog Metal has as many subgenres as has Prog Rock, and it doesn't have anything to do with Rock. It's not a subgenre like Zeuhl. The BEST proof for this is that MANY people in this forum state that they like ANY subgenre EXCEPT prog metal. This shows that prog metal doesn't really belong to that group of genres. Neither does neo prog, but that's another story ... I'd call it Progressive Pop. As for your question why I filed Power Metal under Prog Metal: I meant Progressive Power Metal. I've modified my outline, I left it out at first because I thought it was self explanatory. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:46
I really can't see why you included Power Metal (or the other metal sub-genres) as a progressive genre. Altough a few power metal bands may also be progressive the most of them are not! No one discuss the best-known power metal bands (Helloween, Gamma Ray, Hammerfall) to be progressive, or? Altough I like many of the power metal bands I can't accept them being progressive, even if there indeed is a thin line sometimes. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:55
Do you misunderstand me on purpose? By including Progressive Power Metal I obviously only include the PROGRESSIVE Power Metal bands. You would agree that Symphony X are progressive, wouldn't you? As for the other bands you mentioned: I think that Helloween also are Progressive Power Metal. Gamma Ray seems not as progressive to me, the same with Hammerfall. Listen to the Adagio sample I posted in the other thread, it will give you a good idea of what I think is Progressive Power Metal. I think that of all Power Metal bands, only 10-20% are Progressive. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 08:55
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Some I haven't heard/can't remember. I'll probably give them a listen over the coming days. As Mike said there really isn't much connection with power/prog. I think the confusion arises from power metal's ability to be pretentious and over the top, rather than actually containing progressive elements... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 09:08
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I think I know what you mean. Kamelot are a good example for a Power Metal band that INCLUDES progressive elements. Here's a nice video (RealPlayer): http://www.kamelot.com/video/mom/marchofmephisto.ram - http://www.kamelot.com/video/mom/marchofmephisto.ram I think the video's rather silly, but I still think the album is a masterpiece, because the melodies, composition recording etc. are so great. But the TRUE Progressive Power Metal masterpieces are BASED on these progressive elements. Adagio is a good example. The average Power Metal fan won't like it, he would say that it's too progressive, too much w**king and keyboards and choirs and interludes ... ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 10:45
| I just don't like power metal, except Virgin Steele and one or two others (do Hammers of Misfortune count as power? They're definately prog, either way) |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:28
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Let's see Umm... mAYBE, but No Ugh..... Vintersorg is, but Borknagar is still Melodic Black Metal f**k NO! With Death Metal, Heavy Metal of course. Sorta Progressive Death Heavy Metal Maybe, but they are boring as f**k. NOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOO! Boring, generic Power/Heavy Metal NO NO! MELODIC DEATH FOR YOU METAL DUMBASSES One of my favorite Metal bands, but not Progressive, well theres a tad bit of Progressive influences there, but not really. Yes, Tad Morose is one of those Progressive Power Metal bands. Not bad, but NOOO! Tiamat: ( http://mp3.centurymedia.com/Tiamat_Wildhoney_Gaia.mp3 - MP3: Gaia ) Hellll NOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOO!!! |
Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:39
By the logic in this thread, Manowar should be progressive. Let's see:
------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:44
1. Opera isn't very Progressive isn't it? 2. Black Metal bands have long songs too and are they Progressive no??? 3. Most people say BLACK METAL BANDS HAVE EPIC lyrics, does it make them Progressive? NOO 4. So is Children of Bodom and are Children Of Bodom Progressive? NO! 5. Green Day, Cradle of Filth have concept albums. |
Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:45
------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:46
None of those five qualities are necessarily related to prog, the only borderline one being long songs. I don't think they have concept albums either, but what do I know, I just like listening to the bass solos when I need cheering up 
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Posted By: Rhayader
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:48
I never said they were progressive. In my opinion they aren't, but I said that judging by the logic shown in this topic, one could call them progressive. Are you sure that Green Day have the brains to string a concept album together? ------------- "Sadder still to watch you die than never to have known it..." Rush - Losing It |
Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 17:56
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It is for Italian prog bands and for groups like Devil Doll (who're sort of Italian too, I guess)
It's not all that common for black metal to have long songs - the ones that do tend on the more symphonic side (which isn't prog by a long shot, but it's closer than generic raw black metal) |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 18:09
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This topic suggests "thin line between power and prog" I would rather disagree with it. I think the line between power and prog is thick as a brick, anyway much thicker and clearer than between prog and non-prog music themselves. I kind of agree with MikeEnRegalia when he's saying "metal isn't subgenre of Progressive rock", and I would go further and exclude Metal altogether from this category, and call it Metal as musical genre which has progressive, death, heavy, doom, black (or whatever else metal exists)as its subgenres ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 18:18
Thanks ... and I agree with your last paragraph, except that it's not EITHER death OR progressive ... there is Progressive Power Metal (like Evergrey, they're in the archives) or Progressive Death Metal (Opeth, if you will ... spare the discussion if they're Death or Black for other forums). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 18:21
Why are you so upset? The poor guy spent a lot of time with this post, copied the links ... and you treat him like crap? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 18:28
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Seriously: Why is it so hard for some of you to accept that Progressive Metal is as diverse a genre as Progressive Rock? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 18:33
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I have no problem accepting it. Progressive rock was my first
love... I didn't discover progressive metal until much
later. Before then, I thought metal as a whole was
worthless. Through progressive metal, I've found lots of metal
acts that I absolutely adore, progressive and otherwise. I can't understand how some people can be so close-minded and believe this innovative and brilliant sect isn't even progressive. Ignorant wanks, the lot of 'em. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 19:04
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MikeEnRegalia: No, I am not going to discuss any of Metal subgenres, as I'm not too deep in metal and simply cannot tell black from death from doom etc etc - not my cup of tea really. Main idea is that Metal is different musical genre, and should be discussed separately.. ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 20:56
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Its the truth actually. Progressive Metal itself is very diverse, but not that diverse. |
Posted By: Deadwing12
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 21:39
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I agree very much with MikeEnRegalia in that Progressive Metal is very
much a complete and separate beast from normal, accepted progressive
rock. Nowadays, one usually gets into the classic prog bands (Yes,
Genesis, Rush, etc.) through many of today's leading metal and
prog-metal bands...my first was Symphony X, and now I'm a sucker for
all kinds of prog! I think that the problem lies in the fact I just mentioned, that somehow, progressive metal always seems to bring one to progessive rock in general, as it is surely the grandaddy of all that is prog. Problem is, many of the classic listeners either don't want to accept progressive metal as an actually genre, or they don't want a bunch of snot-nosed metal heads tainting their precious prog records. I personally like both styles very much, but I'd say they need each other to exist. Prog-rock, and the classic giants of the 70s, wouldn't be as well known (well, relatively), or as relevant today if it weren't for the constant "progression" of the genre...a natural progression that has recently taken over the metal aspect of music. There was prog meets jazz with fusion, prog meets pop with neo-prog, and now prog meets metal... all of these genres are easily stand-alone beasts, but they still all fall under the moniker of "Progressive Rock." Just cause Yes and Genesis started it out in a different way doesn't mean that the only way to be true "prog" is to abide by their rules (although some bands do try ). The infusion of prog elements into metal was a natural progression for prog music in general, and some people can't seem to come to grips with that. But i like it...so I'm happy  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Deadwing008/?chartstyle=Basquiat"> 
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: June 25 2005 at 21:54
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 01:35
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this is one of the most entertaining threads I have ever read. ------------- 
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 06:14
Just so you know, black and death = fast, doom = slow |
Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 06:25
No they don't.  They play power metal.
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Posted By: Manunkind
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 06:28
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These are the only two metal genres I've never been able to tell apart. ------------- "In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 09:49
That's exactly what I'm saying. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 09:54
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EDIT: I think that Sonata Arctica are a very interesting band, they are more diverse than other Speed/Power bands. They have many ballads and long acoustic sections. I'm not sure if they are Prog, the musical excellence, sophistication etc. certainly supports that. But I think that they remain too close to conventional song structures and concepts to be Prog. They are a really AWESOME band nonetheless. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: vogre
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:06
| Sonata Arctica are (excuse me) so gay. Come on they sound very poppish. And they are considered as power metal. Speed metal was played by Blind Guardian and Helloween, and by other defintions by Metallica. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:15
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Check out these reviews, which describe Sonata Arctica as (Melodic) Speed Metal: http://www.laut.de/lautstark/cd-reviews/s/sonata_arctica/silence/ - http://www.laut.de/lautstark/cd-reviews/s/sonata_arctica/sil ence/ http://music.monstersandcritics.com/reviews/article_8152.php/Album_Review_Sonata_Arctica_-_Reckoning_Night - http://music.monstersandcritics.com/reviews/article_8152.php /Album_Review_Sonata_Arctica_-_Reckoning_Night http://www.progressiveworld.net/sonart.html - http://www.progressiveworld.net/sonart.html http://www.metal-inside.de/mi/review/377 - http://www.metal-inside.de/mi/review/377 http://www.metal-reviews.com/sonata.htm - http://www.metal-reviews.com/sonata.htm
This definition supports my theory (that they are both Melodic Speed Metal and Power Metal, depends on the song): http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_Arctica - http://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_Arctica
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Logos
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:21
| Metal Storm describes them as Melodic Power Metal. |
Posted By: Astaroth
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:22
close enough for me, but maybe some bands like symphony-X just have progressive elements and they're not 100% progressive. the signature changes are not the only requisite to be prog. And of course, nightwish, sonata arctica, etc....aren't prog! (but they're excelent metal bands)
------------- "I need you more that you can know ... and if I hurt myself it's just for show" |
Posted By: vogre
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:23
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I can give you 100 other sites. The problem is - that Sonata are clearly stratovarius copycats, and that band is also defined as power metal, in fact they are the fathers of melodic power metal.
Read about the finnish "happy metal" in the European power metal category http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_metal#European_power_metal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_metal#European_power_meta l or about speed metal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_metal - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_metal |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:37
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I'm not happy about the whole term "Speed Metal" either, I prefer "Power Metal". The problem with "Speed" is that it limits a band's style to fast songs with extreme use of double-bass. It's just that Melodic Speed Metal is a term more commonly used than Melodic Power Metal. If you have a look at the categorisation I posted at the beginning of the thread, you'll see that I didn't include Speed Metal. In fact, a Progressive Speed Metal band IMHO would always be a Progressive Power Metal band, because the limitation to fast songs would reduce the diversity in a way that rules out Progressiveness. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:41
I strongly disagree on Symphony X. I agree that signature changes don't make a band Prog, but Symphony X have a LOT more to offer than signature changes. http://www.progarchives.com/mp3/Symphony%20X%20-%20V-%20The%20New%20Mythology%20Suite%20-%2008%20-%20Egypt.mp3 - http://www.progarchives.com/mp3/Symphony%20X%20-%20V-%20The% 20New%20Mythology%20Suite%20-%2008%20-%20Egypt.mp3 Listen to this, if you haven't already done so. There are far better Symphony X tracks in terms of diversity, but it's the most progressive track that is available on progarchives. Their ultimate prog epic is The Edge Of Forever (The Damnation Game). ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 10:50
I HATE STRATOVARIUS! IMHO they are the perfect example of an un-progressive Power Metal band. So far, nothing I heard from them has thrilled me in any way. They are very popular, and get very high ratings from metal magazines that have a reputation for punishing progressive elements. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Progshrike
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 11:41
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I've got a crazy idea! How about we enjoy MUSIC because it hits that part of us that we can't describe but keeps bringing us back for more. Let's stop categorizing and just enjoy. I love Nevermore, Iced Earth, Kamelot, etc. Maybe they're not "Prog" per se but still important in the fact that they progress musically without losing identity, unlike the bane of all threads on here. Kudos for pointing out Tony MacAlpine! Probably the most underrated guitarist around. ------------- Did you ever think for yourself? Just once,did you ever think? That's all I want to know> |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:28
Ok, I misunderstood.  To be honest, I haven't heard Symhony X, perhaps I won't misunderstand things anymore if I hear them. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:32
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There are three full length tracks available as mp3, I recommend Egypt. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:34
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DEP thrash? They're not reaaaally metal, let alone thrash . And I'm hard pressed to find progressive elements in virtually any neoclassical metal...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:39
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Ok, then DEP are Mathcore, suits me fine ... If you play any DEP track to a "traditional" Yes/Genesis fan, I'd be surprised if he'd chose any other label than Prog Metal or crap. As for the neoclassical metal: Symphony X: V. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:45
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Symphony X are more prog than any other neoclassical metal groups I've heard... I still don't like 'em much though - they'll have the odd minute or so I totally love and then the rest of it just doesn't do anything for me.
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:48
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Their first album is awesome, it's their least neo-classical and most progressive album. Sadly, Russell Allen had not yet joined them ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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. But their first singer doesn't suck as much as DT's first singer ...Posted By: goose
Date Posted: June 26 2005 at 12:57
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Who does?
edit: Oh yeah, Chuck Mosely |