Why has Renaissance gone obscure?
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Topic: Why has Renaissance gone obscure?
Posted By: criticdrummer94
Subject: Why has Renaissance gone obscure?
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:06
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I've become a huge fan of this band recently and I'm wondering why this band was never as successful as Yes, Genesis or Pink Floyd? -------------  
MY IDOLS |
Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:15
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I only have A Turn of the Cards, but I don't really like it. Maybe my taste is representative of the general public. (Ha! No, it isn't.)
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:20
Perhaps because the great record playing public didn't think they were as good as those three bands? Perhaps because their music was not as commercially viable as those three bands? I really like Renaissance, and they did some great stuff, but, in football terms, they were fighting for fourth place in the league, not premier league champion material. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
criticdrummer94 wrote:Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:22
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Maybe they weren't "rock" enough to enjoy crossover success in the mainstream rock world. Yes had Roundabout, Pink Floyd had Money, Genesis had crossover success a little later once they got into the pop singles market. But Renaissance always had a very classical bent, with few "rocking" moments. Later on, Renaissance appeared to go the pop crossover route with stuff like Azure d'Or, and my best guess as to why that didn't work was probably lack of support from the record company, because there's good pop potential there.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:24
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Perhaps because Renaissance were never an actual progressive ROCK band, some listeners found them too classical/operatic/folk based?
They are easily one of the defining 70's progressive bands, and a very important part of the development of the genre! At least in progressive circles, the band is so highly looked on, and it's kind of all but guaranteed no matter how ridiculous the comparison, most female fronted prog bands are compared to Renaissance and Annie Haslam! 
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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:38
| I really loved Ashes are Burning. That one gets some plays from me. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:41
Indeed. Also, I don't completely understand the title. "Have gone obscure"...they were always behind these three bands, by a long way. TFTO earned gold certification in UK purely on pre orders and hit no.1 in UK. No Renaissance ALBUM ever hit no.1 in either US or UK. Genesis were a blockbuster pop group in the 80s. Nothing needs to be said of Pink Floyd's success as well as influence, I suppose. For a second tier band, Renaissance have done about as well as they could have hoped and they have been fortunate enough to retain a fanbase in spite of breaking up in the 80s, which has made their revival in the last few years possible. |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:49
Yes, exactly! There is still a lot of good-will and affection for the band, and they're currently wrapping up recording of a new studio album `Grandine Il Vento' for release early next year, which I'm sure many of us are looing forward to! I haven't heard it in a few years, but I remember their last `Tuscany' was pretty decent too! Good an excuse as any now to go and grab it off the shelf for a listen! 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 10:54
| Because they are so heavily influenced by classical music, their essential sound is not particularly spectacular but at the same time not too reliant on any particular epoch. So they seem to creep back into some momentum more easily and without having to change their sound much. Their recent live shows got a favourable review from Allaboutjazz.com. But without pop singles, they are not going to set the world afire with album sales, as simple as that. Annie Haslam said in a mid 70s interview that it would always be a struggle for bands like them and that holds true today as well. |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 11:10
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I quite like most of what the did in the 70's. I saw them perform at Neafest this past summer and they were fantastic. That Annie is still able to sing like she did back in the 70's (well, very nearly, anyway......much like Jon Anderson) is very impressive. The big thing I find with them is that they never really progressed. From Ashes are Burning through A Change Of Seasons, there really is almost no new musical development. They became more ambitious with the compositions, but the basic style and approach never changed. I think that is why they've always been second tier amongst prog fans (though still beloved by many). As to popular success, well I think that is obvious. They had no hit records and no hit singles. Not hard to understand why they are obscure to the general music listening public. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 11:15
| ^^^ Well, there is, in the sense that I'd shift the point where they found their niche to Turn of the Cards. That's where they let go of the pastoral sound of Ashes...and adopted a dense, symphonic sound, with more piano and less acoustic guitar. But thereafter, there was never really a point where the use of an orchestra actually made the music more demanding or challenging to listen to. It was as if they were in thrall of the sound of the orchestra than the complexity that could be obtained from it. There's so little counterpoint in their music for a band so reliant on orchestra. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 17:05
It's obvious why ... they didn't feel the need to dress up in costumes and imagine some kind of story!   Similarly, a lot of their early lyric material was written by an English poetess, btw ... but then, that's too intelectual to be progressive or appreciated by folks that think rock lyrics are more important if they talk about Jane or a bitch!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 19:06
well they did have a pretty big single in the UK - "Northern Lights", off "Song for All Seasons" in 1978, but it didn't do anything in America and I don't know if it did anything anywhere else. It was ironic because up until then, the group had been better received in America than in UK. But the album success in US did not translate to singles success, probably because of the reasons people have given above. And, unfortunately, the singles success in UK proved an anomaly, as it failed to generate any momentum at all for the group. Still, one of my favourites from the 70s prog scene.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 19:38
| However it may be, I really love that band, and Annie may be my favourite singer from prog, tied with Jon Anderson. They really got some magical moments. |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 19:46
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I think it's because they're either, frankly, not as good as most classic Prog bands, or they're just underrated
------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow">  The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 29 2012 at 20:35
By her own admission, the late Betty Thatcher was not a poet and wanted to be a commercial artist. She got the job because she was a friend of Jane Relf and Keith Relf read some letters she had written to Jane and liked what he saw. Formally, she was not any more qualified as a poet than Annie, though much better imo at writing lyrics. As for dressing up, well, they had to dress up essentially folk and pop melodies in classical sounds...that was their USP, wasn't it? At least Floyd didn't dress up the music. There is no need to deride other bands to talk up the one in question, is there? Renaissance members are self professed fans of Yes, by the way and Jon Camp admitted to imitating Squire.
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 08:28
Yeah, I didn't really understand the comment either. Especially since it's quite obvious they DID "dress up" on stage in the seemingly obligatory 70's stage outfits. No capes, I guess, but some of Annie's dresses were quite medieval. Of course, they didn't go to the lengths of groups like Yes or Genesis with the stage props and such, but I suspect that was down to not having the money for it. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 08:56
| I know I am in the minority, but a growing one (right ClemofNazareth and Rogerthat?) who thinks that Renaissance' peak was 1978, "A Song for All Seasons". That was a bit late for a prog act from the early 70s to peak. Yes we are a minority, but a larger minority (in percentage anyway) than those who think Genesis, ELP, or Yes peaked in 1978. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 09:26
Yeah, I know you agree and also ClemofNazareth. I think because of the somewhat pop-ish sound in places and also that it's 1978 and not 1973, SFAS doesn't get its due vis-a-vis the other Renaissance mk ii albums. It's not really a step down at all; they really should have had some guitar in the mix anyway. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 09:28
They were also not theatrical so there was really nothing much to act out in the way of Genesis or Floyd. But they all wanted to make a statement, nonetheless, like many other bands from the 70s. Annie's dresses were supposed to reflect the character of the music. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 11:00
I love them, but I think their problem was they lacked the 'rock' element in sufficient measure to appeal more broadly. If you look at the musicians as individuals they were all very good, especially Annie Haslam and John Tout, but there just wasn't enough rock going on for a rock audience, it was too high brow and classical orientated for a pop audience, and probably too complex and proggy for an easy listening audience and for day time radio air play. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: menawati
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 11:39
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Maybe it was a lack of consistency too ? I only have their three classics which are brilliant but I've heard that the rest of their discog is pretty ordinary. I could be wrong though. ------------- They flutter behind you your possible pasts, Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 14:58
When they came up, at least as is the case in Santa Barbara, because I know that Guy and some KTYD folks played this group a lot, in general, the issue was that the FM music bands started becoming more commercial and into the hit, or big seller format. By the time it got to '75 or '78, for example, you would be obligated to hear The Who, Led Z, Pink Floyd, Elton John, late Beatles, later Rolling Stones and Aerosmith, and one or two more "Blue Dots" ... and that took away some of the more experimental amount of music to be heard. When Renaissance came to SB, it was already anti-climatic, and they did a fabulous show, and half the people walked out, because they came to see Tim Weisberg that fell sick, and could not come. The music, at that point, was already about the fame and not the music or the art itself, and the respect for the different things, was already going away and missing. All in all, as much as I liked Renaissance, it was not one of my top groups, but it was one that was very nice and very enjoyable ... but it was quite clear that the audience was stuck on the top ten mentality already ... without realizing it ... which makes the fact that Space Pirate Radio lasting almost 25 years is totally insane ... and unreal! ... but it DID! And why? ... because it didn't give a cahoot about top ten or anything else. And one of its mottos? ... none of the hits, none of the time! ... you would figure to appreciate that by now in some way! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 20:20
Personally, I don't see the point about this huge gap between AAB/Cards/Scheherazade and Novella and SFAS after these. Rather, I think the latter represent their best phase. People just got bored of waiting for them to change their style, I guess. But they were/are not that kind of band. They only wanted to make music in that classical-folk style over and over, would bet anything even the new album after all these years will follow that template.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 21:37
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Renaissance were never commercial until Camera Camera........They sold out to compete in the 80,s but their brand of sound was never compromised in the 70's. Then it was hip to be ethereal and folky with that awesome touch of rock. Maybe in about 50 years they will be truly appreciated for their lack of compromise during their vintage period. Rave on.... ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: smartpatrol
Date Posted: October 30 2012 at 21:51
That's probably it ------------- http://bit.ly/1kqTR8y" rel="nofollow"> The greatest record label of all time! |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 00:47
Ditto, ditto. That reminds me of the cover vocals Annie Haslam did on a remake of "Turn of the Century" a decade or so ago. She sounded great on that old Yes song. So, yes, I agree - she has still "got it" in the vocals department...
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Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 12:40
Yes, I definitely think 'A Song for all Seasons' was their magnum opus, although I really like their first album (but for different reasons, and which was of course had a completely different lineup). I think they had a number of issues in breaking out when they were at their peak. The big market then was the U.S., and while they did have success in New England they didn't really do the kind of heavy nationwide touring that bands like Yes, ELP and others did which limited their exposure in a pre-WWW, pre-MTV era. Also, they ran a little late to catch on with the coattails of the big British prog mastodons of the 70s. Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull and others were already somewhat in decline in the U.S. (and elsewhere) by the mid-70s, while 'Novella' and 'A Song for all Seasons' (both of which did quite well in the U.S.) didn't release until well into the disco era. Pink Floyd was an entirely different creature because of their psych/space leanings and therefore inherently larger audience. Finally, as a couple people have mentioned, Renaissance didn't have many singles, which were critical to market success back in the 70s. They only released a handful of 45s outside the UK and until 'Northern Lights' in late 1978 there weren't any that were considered 'radio-friendly'. By the time they tried to make more commercial music disco and punk had drowned out nearly all prog-leaning music, not just theirs. Still, this was a great band and despite my hammering a few of their later albums in reviews I think they qualify as an A-list 70s prog band. Too bad they didn't get more of the appreciation they deserved. ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 12:50
Novella is my favorite album of theirs, so I agree with you here. I happen to love their style, so discovering them in the early 2000's, I was quite happy that those 5 albums were all so similar in style. I suspect though, that audiences of the 70's were not as keen on the style, probably due to the lack of a "rock" element. Also, as mentioned, they were somewhat latecomers to the prog rock scene, or at least didn't hit their peak until later (for me Novella was the peak, with SFAS being a very slight step down from that but still well within the quality of the previous 4 albums). |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 20:31
I have heard that they actually resisted singles for a bit but the label would have none of it by Northern Lights. Don't know whether there's any truth in it. Have also heard that they meant to release Carpet of the Sun as a single but it either didn't happen at all or only pretty late in the day. Ironically, once they struck gold with Northern Lights, they wanted the next hit badly...perhaps too much so. Still, had Azure D'Or not been a disaster sales-wise, they may just have consolidated the success of SFAS and probably be better remembered today.
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 21:30
| Yeah Azure D'Or was such a disappointment to me...it seemed so synthetic and spiritless other than a few tracks.Honestly, I would rather hear "Time Line". At least it has some verve |
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: October 31 2012 at 22:30
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I always thought they were hampered by the lack of an outstanding lead guitarist in their lineup....they never had a guitarist who played at the level of Hackett, Howe or Fripp, or even close. Also, John Camp was a very good bassist, but not up to par with his peers of the era (Squire, Wetton, Lake etc.). They were very strong on keys, with John Hawken and John Tout on board.
Given that, I'm quite fond of some of their material, particularly "Mother Russia." Annie Haslam has a wonderful voice, and her version of "Turn of the Century" with Steve Howe is sublime! |
Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 07:02
Yeah, this is a real pet peeve of mine. It's fair enough if the vocalist in question does actually sound a bit like Annie, but sometimes people can really stretch it, to the point where you wonder whether they're only making the comparison because they aren't aware of any other women in rock music. It's like how people constantly mention Jethro Tull if a flute is involved in an album, regardless of how it's used, with an extra dash of mild sexism on the side. As for Renaissance themselves... the difficulty I've always had with them is that a lack of consistency. Once they hit on their classic sound on Ashes are Burning it seems like they got in a bit of a rut.
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 08:53
I really don't see how ASFAS could be seen as a rut. It's far more energetic than anything they did before while still possessing 2 epics and excellent short songs of the sort they had rarely done before. It's like they were damned if they changed and damned if they didn't. I do think Novella was marking time a bit, but also that it has some of their loveliest songs, and also their most chilling in "Midas Man". But I also thought "Camera Camera" was very good, even though I would not go to bat defending it here as much as ASFAS
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 09:21
Sorry but I don't think Annie fared too well on Timeline and that takes away a lot from an already middling album. Don't know what was the issue at that time, but I really can't see why they couldn't have recorded another take of say Chagrin Boulevard or Distant Horizons. At least AZD had a handful of tracks that were not too bad - Winter Tree, Forever Changing, Kalynda - though it was on the whole quite boring.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 09:28
Midas Man could have been a very good single. Also Touching Once is amazing.
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Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 09:40
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Looking at `Azure D'or' right now, there's some really good tracks like `Golden Key', several decent songs, and a whole lot of Genesis-like tricks going on in the playing and the production.
But holy hell Camp's wretched `Only Angels Have Wings' is absolute dross of the highest order! Ditch that and you've got a mostly servicable album!
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 10:25
I can render some information about Renaissance based on my experience. On the east coast they received great airplay! WMMR And WYSP played the band's music and included it on daily ...week to week programming. Renaissamce could be seen on late night talk shows that featured entertainment variety. They were more successful in Philadelphia and N.Y. than Gentle Giant as their popularity scaled above many artists who released their first album in 1972 ...and it would appear to mostly everyone that they were skyrocketing beyond even that particular level of appreciation. Most people on the east coast discovered the band upon the release of Ashes are Burning. Pink Floyd and Genesis had already been cemented in to the public eye years before Renaissance entered the music scene of the 70's. and so it is predictable and common for Floyd and Genesis to be remembered.
The band released several follow ups to Ashes are Burning and every one of those albums attracted the attention of "Art Rock" fans on the east coast. Renaissance were entertaining to the life style on college campus. About 6 months after the release of Novella people began to lose interest in the band. The follow up album Azure produced sounds and styles heard on Wind and Wuthering. The keyboard playing on that album was a structured style in the vain of Tony Banks circa "78. I liked the album, but to be honest..few around me did. Renaissance were pegged by a majority of fans on the east coast to have released 4 brilliant albums including Carnegie Hall the live recording with an orchestra.
The band eventually took a new direction becoming more acoustic oriented. In '81 I was touring theatres and many musicians noticed Renaissance had lowered their expectations by touring the same venues as us. We were trying to rise above this theatre circuit and Rennaissance had obviously fallen to our level. It didn't leave much room for enthusiasm or hope. I sometimes had a drink with friends and it would come up in conversation. We would make fun of ourselves and ask why Renaissance were playing the same circuit with losers like us? We were devoted Rennaissance fans in our early 20's and couldn't fathom this screwball situation which was personally disturbing and insulting to us. We felt anger toward the young hipster dwistle type record executives and placed the blame for lack of interest in Renaissance upon them. We were confused because the band also had a "Top 40's" crowd following them around. What exactly did they need to sustain their popularity?
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 10:41
| ^^^ So the problem was indeed, as ClemofNazareth said, that they couldn't really build a fanbase outside the American Northeast. Which of course is a big difference when compared to Genesis, Yes or PF. You can catch Owner of a Lonely Heart on VH1 but I have never seen Northern Lights played on these music channels. A band like Gentle Giant gets a kind of cult following on prog-dedicated communities like PA but otherwise they have more or less disappeared too. Again a band that broke up at the cusp of the 80s. ELP had the biggest live billing of these bands and they are relatively obscure now compared to PF. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 12:19
I don't see Midas Man as a single. It was too slow and cerebral, and with no hooks. It's a plodding and threatening piece that hits one intellectually first, but on a visceral level. Not the stuff of top 40 at all IMO
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Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 01 2012 at 22:07
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I'll just say I listened to azure d'or today and, other than the fact that it has no long songs (not really an issue; just an observation) it's still a nice prog album. Perhaps only 3 stars, but nothing for them to be embarrassed about. (Even "Only Angels Have Wings" is not bad.) ------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 02 2012 at 10:39
| Well, it was certainly not a trainwreck but they needed something better to follow up the success of SFAS. They didn't deliver the goods at the end of the day and subsequently lost their contract with Warner Bros, let Tout and Sullivan go and basically lost the plot. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 02 2012 at 20:00
It's a shame - David Hentschel's production on ASFAS was a big part of the formula, but I think he produced Azure D'Or too. Seems like he may have been as responsible for losing the plot as the band.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 02 2012 at 20:59
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I tend to agree, though some of the songs too were kind of uninspired. Jekyll & Hyde for instance was not bad but a bit dated. It was styled a bit on Wind & Wuthering which was supposed to be Genesis's heroic last stand before they went pop. Pop needs to be catchy and infectious and there is really no Northern Lights on Azure. Winter Tree is pretty good but maybe they didn't push that one as much as the other songs. I have a concert video from 1979 and have traced several bootlegs from that period on youtube but I didn't find any live performance of Winter Tree. Which might have been a mistake (easy to say, of course, in hindsight) because it at least has a good groove and a haunting refrain without getting too involved. |
Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 03 2012 at 08:54
true, they seemed burned out. I don't even remember "Winter Tree" and I no longer own the album. I thought "Golden Key and "Kalynda" were both beautiful, and did enjoy "Jeckyll and Hyde", but that was about it. Actually, I wonder if "Bonjour Swansong" from the much maligned "Camera Camera" had been on Azure D'Or, could have been a more logical heir apparent to "Northern Lights".
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 03 2012 at 22:22
It would. Unfortunately, Betty Thatcher (RIP) hadn't parted ways with the band yet. 
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Posted By: kenethlevine
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 11:17
listened to Bonjour Swansong again and hadn't realized just how bad those synth sounds seem today, but I guess back then this would not have been a hindrance to becoming a hit single
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 16:26
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I have been lurking in this thread fir several days and decided to spread some Renaissance love First of all Annie Haslam is an incredible singer and deserves accolades, as a pioneer too when female fronted prog bands were scarce. I would love to see this  as it has a stunning setlist Disc 1 - ACT 1: Turn Of The Cards 1. Running Hard (9:47) 2. I Think Of You (3:14) 3. Things I Don't Understand (10:01) 4. Black Flame (6:57) 5. Cold Is Being (3:52) 6. Mother Russia (10:30) Total Time 44:24 Disc 2 - ACT 2: Scheherazade And Other Stories 1. Trip To The Fair (11:25) 2. Vultures Fly High (3:31) 3. Ocean Gypsy (7:37) 4. Song Of Scheherazade (24:35) 5. The Mystic And The Muse (8:35) Total Time 55:45 DVD: 1. Running Hard 2. I Think Of You 3. Things I Don't Understand 4. Black Flame 5. Cold Is Being 6. Mother Russia 7. Trip To The Fair 8. Vultures Fly High 9. Ocean Gypsy 10. Song Of Scheherazade 11. The Mystic And The Muse The setlist looks better than live album  "In The Land of the Rising Sun" is the promotional live album for the final Renaissance studio release "Tuscany". As the concert promotes this 2000 album there are a lot of songs here from that album which is not a good thing as "Tuscany" was nowhere near as good as the earlier Renaissance material. From "Tuscany" the set list includes 'Lady From Tuscany', 'Pearls Of Wisdom', 'One Thousand Roses', and 'Dear Landseer'. It is interesting to hear them live but the real piece de resistance comes when the band belt out the old progressive classics. It snice to hear her sing Moonlight Shadow tho not as great as Maggies version. also has some classic material from Ashes. etc The best studio releases are undoubtedly the ones to grab hold of Ashes, Cards, Scheherezade Great band! ------------- 
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 16:44
I just read the reviews of this reunion album and no wonder the band struggled after such a mediocre attempt if a band is going to reunite it should at least produce a decent album worth more than 2 or 3 stars. Oh some reviewers loved it but it was a patchy album, and from the songs i have heard from it nothing like it should have been. it gave the band a chance to tour again but they still had to focus on their classic material or would be a dead loss. its sad that the band came back and produced this and nothing since 2000 so its unlikely now except for the odd live album. its just tragic -------------
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Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 16:53
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Atomic, Renaissance are actually putting the finishing touches to a new studio album for release in early 2013! I'm quite looking forward to it, even if it will take some serious `nostalgia/rose tinted glasses' to enjoy it.
I keep noticing that `Tuscany' gets a bad rap, but although I haven't heard it in years, I do remember it was quite decent, and showcased almost all facets of the band - adult pop, sophisticated ballads, and more ambitious thoughtful pieces. A few duds too, which is really not surprising. It definately showed their age, but it wasn't truly terrible.....from what I remember! Sigh, I may as well go and grab it off the shelf for a listen now! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 16:58
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I think I prefer Prologue to any of their subsequent releases. I guess Haslam's vocals are a bit too much for me. I enjoy them in small doses, but they're just too 'pretty' for me in the long run. Different strokes and all that I guess... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 17:14
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David, `Prologue is my favourite Renaissance album too! The full-blown classical elements hadn't totally kicked in yet, the album rocks a little more than anything after it, and Annie isn't quite as operatic and mannered as she gets from then on. I think she also sounds shamanistic and hypnotic on the track `Rajah Khan', kind of deranged and sinister too!
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 17:23
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I do love me some Rajah Khan - even if it sounds like an evil conqueror of peoples
Annie does sound more shamanistic as you point out, which could be the reason why I prefer it over the classic albums. She reminds me a bit of Catherine Ribeiroux on it, but then again only a little hahah... ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 18:04
That is true too. I love Prologue but not as much as the big three that follow. I must get that album out and have a relisten as havent even reviewed it yet. I reviewed about 80 albums since I was bed ridden recovering from opration. Well at least I had the time as cant do anything else but type  In all seriousness Renaissance new album news is exciting and i will be getting that definitely. Hope its a tad better than their 80s material.... It will be of course. I love Running Hard! Listening to it now... so powerful -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 18:08
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wow I Spotified Renaissnace and theres tons on there - I sense a reviewing spree.......... Listening to Prologue now Love the intro vocals, do do do do doooooooooooooooooo, do do do do doooooooooooooooo what a voice and Sounds of the Sea, divine -------------
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 19:41
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Well my reactions to Prologue are its a 3 star album with not enough really great stuff to award anymore. Kiev is not good with out Annies vox its no good. Sounds of the sea is excellent as is Rajah,but its not a consistent album tho by no means bad. Tuscany is okay - I just heard it and its pleasant and Annie sounds nice and its all just nice.... thTS THE problem really as its nothing special but still worth 3 stars also. Hard to bet their big 3 albums that are brilliant in places -------------
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 04 2012 at 20:19
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Yeah, I agree with you on Tuscany. If they only include Mystic and the Muse on the new album, it would still beat Tuscany for me. It is very much in the vein of their Novella/Song for all Seasons phase, ambitious and mysterious with dramatic vocals. And I would totally recommend the new DVD. The band do well as people who have watched them these last few years report, but the sound and picture quality is also great. Great performances of Trip to the fair and Ocean Gypsy.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 09:27
I hear this a lot that Annie is operatic and I generally feel perplexed. I guess people say this because she trained under an opera singer? Her style sounds more like a folk-pop hybrid to me. Actually, given that I practically hate opera, I shouldn't have touched this band with a bargepole and then some had she gone all operatic. Her delivery on Mystic and Muse has a bit of that Bruce Dickinson-esque quality (in terms of sounding somewhat pompous) and I hope she doesn't go too far down that road.  |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 14:51
Roger, you're spot on, even when I first wrote that response I thought to myself `Oh, but you know Annie's not really singing OPERA style', but I chose the lazy comparison just to make things easier. Sigh! I fell into my own trap of lazy and inaccurate comparisons. And here I was earlier in this post grumbling about how no matter how ridiculous the comparison, most female fronted prog bands are compared to Renaissance and Annie Haslam. Next thing you know I'll be saying that Leslie Hunt from District 97 sounds like Annie Haslam!
I think Annie sings like a more sophisticated and classicaly trained version of a folk singer, which gives the band a more serious reputation? |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 15:17
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I find it funny that many here think Renaissance was less popular than Genesis. In the seventies, Renaissance actually got quita a bit of airplay. Most of the general public knew nothing of genesis until they became Phil's pop band.
I heard Renaissance albums at many parties and functions in the seventies. Genesis was played only at hard core prog gatherings. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: iluvmarillion
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 17:32
While I agree with most of what you say I don't agree the band was hampered by the lack of electric lead guitar. Not having an electric lead guitarist didn't seem to hamper ELP. To answer the poster who created this thread, the band put out an outstanding debut then underwent a dramatic personal line-up change that would have confused almost anyone. The Prologue album is imo a pretty weak effort that would have disillusioned those people who enjoyed the original album. Despite all that the band seemed to put it all together in the run of albums between Ashes Are Burning and Song For All Seasons. The band peaked in popularity at around the time of the Live album when they pulled large audiences into Carnegie Hall. They had a minor hit with Northern Lights just before the Punk era hit and unfortunately their supporter base wasn't strong enough to survive the onslaught. Replacing John Tout and adopting a more synthesizer approach to the sound to compete against the new music was a total disaster. What little audience they still had would have stopped listening after the Camera Camera album.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 19:09
That, and they WERE dead serious, it seems? They claimed to want to make 'classical rock' and disliked hard rock. They probably get their reputation from the slow and stately nature of their music, with barely a trace of humour save compositions like Trip to the fair.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 19:19
But ELP also had an outstanding instrumental soloist in Emerson. As much as I respect John Tout, I can't really place him in that category. It's strange, he actually plays the piano very fluently but is somehow not very comfortable improvising. Jon Camp seems to be, but then goes way overboard and well into the territory of showboating. Perhaps, a guitarist would have contributed more interesting layers of texture which could also have given them more options to adapt to the 80s without alienating the older fans. That also brings us to the peculiar power dynamics in the band where the rest of them seemed to struggle to accept Annie's prominence in spite of her not contributing to the songwriting process for a long time. What Atavachron said in another thread is exactly right, there is no great mystery about why some bands don't get the success you'd think they'd based on their work. They just seem to have a deathwish and make some bad decisions along the way which hurt their cause eventually.
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Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 05 2012 at 19:20
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Roger, they were definately deadly serious! I remember the first Renaissance album I bought was `Scherezade' (spelling?) on vinyl, only knowing that they were somehow progressive related, and the inside sleeve had a very stern looking photo of the band, with a grim and unsmiling Annie front and centre! I remembered thinking `Gee, luv, wouldn't hurt you to smile a bit' lol!
It kind of put me off at first, luckily the music was very grand and impressive! I suppose looking back it really complimented the serious nature of the band and their music perfectly.
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 15:42
A little off the topic: I'm actually very glad that they didn't rock out much, that they never really heavily employed rock guitar (at least in the classic years). I'm pretty sure that if they did, they would blow four characters. I like their brand of classical music and folk synthesized together.
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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 20:43
I agree, but I also think ELP wouldn't have been nearly as big without the FM staples that were guitar based. "Lucky Man" and "From The Beginning" had that folk rock thing going, and "KEN9 1rst impression P2" at least had a guitar solo, which probably helped them fit in with the more straightforward rock played on the radio. People heard those tracks first, then warmed up to their other, more proggish keyboard based stuff. Renaissance never had a gateway rockish tune to get that sort of crowd to check out their catalog. I'm another of those that digs Prologue the most, although Ashes Are Burning is a close second. |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: November 07 2012 at 22:18
Theres a lot of people who are saying Prologue is amazing yet I still prefer Ashes are Burning or Turn of the Cards as I guess I love the rock folk feel and its mystical symbolism. How could one not love Black Flame for instance - simply incredible - watch and adore -------------
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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 06:47
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This prompted me to listen to Turn Of The Cards again...it's been a while. Fantastic album!
I agree that they matured somewhat after Prologue and honed their particular symphonic prog sound, but I just dig the jammy acid drenched folk-rock vibe it has I don't get from their later stuff (that fuzzy guitar tone!). I really need to hear their debut album someday.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 10:46
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Actually, outside of Rajah Khan, Prologue is already very much like 'classic' Renaissance, especially the softer compositions like Sounds of the Sea and Bound for Infinity. The title track already pays faithful homage to Rachmaninov and Bach and relies heavily on Annie's vocal prowess more than it does on rocking out. If it is like any acid rock, it must be of the most benign variety imho.
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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: November 08 2012 at 11:15
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Well yeah, quite benign, but I still hear enough psychedelic influences like the occasional fuzz guitar to keep things groovy and less stuffy.
"Spare Some Love" has a "let's all join hands and get high as kites" late 60's feel, especially during the chorus. Almost sounds like it came out a few years late. The title track, with all its homages, imo still manages to rock out in a jazzy way through the sheer energetic rhythm section...and some buzzy guitar. Agree with "Sounds of the Sea" and "Bound for Infinity"...they could have been squirreled in anywhere in their 70's output, but I really like 'em. Camp's voice in Kiev kinda fits a trippy vibe as well.
Their sound changed with the orchestral layers for their later stuff. It was better for the material, but I still find Prologue to be their coolest, when they were just a band without all the added symphonic arrangements. I'm also obssessed with that album cover...so otherworldly.
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 11 2012 at 22:18
Forget that thing that I've just crossed out. They did rock! ... a lot! ... All they really needed was Tout and Sullivan.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 01:24
| Personally, always thought of Sullivan as the weak link in the band. Just something that I don't like about his penchant for the cymbals. Not that I wouldn't take him over Gavin Harrison's strange performance in the 1983 Chicago concert. Tout played piano quite beautifully but could have been a better synth player imo. |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 10:28
...
 ...  ... Why synths?! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 13 2012 at 21:06
Why not? Banks, Wakeman, Emerson and Minnear all used it and used it very well. This band was so much in love with their sound that they never bothered to change it. I am not saying change for the sake of changing it, but at least try a few different things.
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Posted By: Jbird
Date Posted: November 22 2012 at 22:10
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I'm not a Renaissance fan, but I just happened to notice that wikipedia say Michael Dunford died on November 20th from a cerebral hemorrhage. Reading up on them on wiki, Dunford was primarily just a song writer? Or did he play on the albums, as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_in_2012
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 22 2012 at 22:13
| ^ Wrong place to ask this question. Nonetheless, you should also be able to find out via Wiki that he did play the acoustic guitar for the band. |
Posted By: Jbird
Date Posted: November 22 2012 at 22:47
Cool thanks! The wiki article mentioned he played for them early, but that they got another guitar player and only seemed to mention Dunford as a songwriter after that. Like I said, I'm not a fan, though I've listened to some live stuff on youtube and it sounds decent enough.
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Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: November 23 2012 at 00:07
| ^ Get their '73-'75 stuff. Mandatory Renaissance. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 02:02
| *bump* This is not quite an appreciation thread, but will do very well, so bumping it up for a few people who asked about a Ren Appreciation Thread. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 06:33
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The opening track from the first concert in Portugal since 1982. Her amazing voice captivated the audience right from the start  |
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 07:49
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Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 08:04
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Why did Renaissance go obscure? I suppose the pompous nature and grandly symphonic arrangments of their music was not ever going to have been considered fairly `cool', and the modern trendies who write off the likes of groups like ELP, etc for those same qualities and as having the worst elements of the excesses that progressive rock often presented would likely throw Renaissance in that group. But there should DEFINITELY be a proper Renaissance Appreciation Thread? Someone like to do the honours?
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Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 09:27
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^ I think this is a good appreciation thread, with this title we'll have to keep posting stuff to prove they are not obscure |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 09:32
I like that spirit!
 Anyway....to repeat a request I made in another thread, any reviews/footage from their concert at NJPAC? I am really curious about how it sounded with Moraz in the mix...well, what all did Moraz play anyway? It's really nice that the 'new' Renaissance get these interesting artists over for some of the shows. There was Mary Fahl last year and year before or in 2012, a violinist performed on Mother Russia. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 10:41
^ I'd like to see that too, Moraz is an excellent musician  |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 11:29
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Who said they gone abscure? I don't think so. I like them as many of "Big Name" bands and I will pay for their new releases even their solo albums (if their release solo albums). I have a Magenta EP with Annie Haslam named : Night and Day. You can compare Haslam and Christina. Haslam is great and Amazing.
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=12893" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=12893
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 11:35
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If by big name bands you are thinking of bands like Magenta, that kinda says it all, right? Renaissance were a whole other league in the 70s. They packed Carnegie Hall, they inaugurated the Sight & Sound series on BBC albeit with not one of their best shows, they had a top 10 single. Unfortunately in trying to vault to even greater heights post Northern Lights, they tripped pretty hard and have fallen a long way since. Anyway, though the title says something, this is now a Renaissance appreciation thread for all practical purposes. So what are your favourite Ren albums?
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Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 11:55
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Personal favourite Renaissance album? `Prologue'! Just because it `rocks' that little bit more than the albums that came after it, and I don't think there's a poor moment on the whole disc! But I secretly adore most of `Azure D'Or'! They made plenty of better albums, but I love the careful balance of prog and pop throughout the entire disc, even if they amp up the Genesis elements, not surprisingly as David Hentschell was involved in the album if I recall? Even a lot of the drumming sounds right off `A Trick of the Tail/Wind and Wuthering'! Only the wretched `Only Angels Have Wings' lets it down for me, what a dog of a song!
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 12:16
I guess I know your mean. This is not fair and I don't expect this from you. Now I want to answer your question Honestly. Prologue (Their best IMO), Ashes, Turn of the Cards , Novella , Azure d'or (I love this one), Tuscany , Symphony of Light. And albums I don't like are : Camera , Time-Line (what is this!!!) . I don't want talk about "Schehezarade..." and " A song ..." and explain about them.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 19:16
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Sorry mate, it wasn't clear what you meant by big name bands....because if you mean Genesis, Yes and the like, they are certainly not as popular as them, which is why the OP framed his question. Wasn't pulling your leg, really had nothing else to go upon but your mention of Magenta. Anyway, nice to know about your favourites, interesting choices.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 18 2015 at 19:16
Mine would have to be Song for all Seasons, with Novella not far behind.
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 05:58
IMO Special Guest or this kind of collaborations (like Magenta with Annie Haslam) show me that the guest is bigger. (I don't know how to say that clearly!!!) For example (again!!!) in this case Haslam bigger than Magenta IMO. (bigger not in SIZE mean). Thanks for your reply
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Posted By: Prog Sothoth
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 08:54
Wow, more Prologue lovers...thought I was the only one out of the regulars! I'm still the only one apparently daft enough to give it a five star review here Looking at what I posted on this thread in 2012, I still really need to hear those first two pre-Annie Renaissance albums. I should make it a mission or something.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 09:32
It's perfectly clear now, thanks! Actually, your example of Gentle Giant is a good one to bring home the point of the OP. Gentle Giant's highest charting album in the US was Free Hand at no.48. Lower than Novella and on par with Scheherazade. Also, none of GG's other albums enjoyed the same success in US whereas from Scheherazade through to Song for All Seasons Renaissance had a good run. They also had a top 10 single in UK and GG had none. But GG are today regarded as a big prog rock band (somebody even argued vehemently for them to be included in the Big Five/Six of prog) and Renaissance aren't. Rather than saying they have gone obscure, what has happened is there has been a sharp critical re-evaluation of their work which has proved unfavourable to them. I wonder what the reasons for that could be. Think having a chick as the front of a melodic, 'square' prog rock band makes some people not want to try them at all. I know that I only hopped in for the ride because I looked at the band's page on prog archives and decided the lady got the job for her singing and not her other attractions....oops!
Just one theory I am throwing out in jest, don't mean offence to anybody. But that's the rub, this band was quite popular during their heyday but they haven't enjoyed the recall value of some of their contemporaries. Meanwhile, VDGG and GG have leapfrogged through critical re-evaluation rather than getting obscured. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 09:33
If you like Prologue that much, you should enjoy the pre-Annie albums, especially the s/t.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 10:54
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 11:56
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Annie Haslam is a complete diva in my opinion. She's great. Magnificent voice. I dont have (I guess) a favourite album, but I do listen Scherezade, Ashes and Novella a lot... althout I have a great feeling for Prologue, "Spare some Love always plays when I need to get good vibes. Yeah, thats great we're talking about Renaissance on a thread especifically to it! ------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 16:06
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Posted By: Otto9999
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 16:39
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Removed due to PA's deliberated act of deleting threads as alleged featuring negative behaviour posts towards others.
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Posted By: Otto9999
Date Posted: October 19 2015 at 16:45
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Removed due to PA's deliberated act of deleting threads as alleged featuring negative behaviour posts towards others.
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