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Psychedelia 
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 Posted: February 06 2007 at 15:35 |
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I think religion has a detrimental effect on music/bands. I say this because all the bands i have listened to that have found religion were so much better before this. And E-Dub you said that the lyrics aren't what people care about. This is wrong. I don't like listening to Neal Morse because of the atrocious, cringeworthy lyrics. Also it seems to change the musical direction of groups. Classic example is Nick Cave who went from writing fantastic songs about murder and generally nasty things. He found religion and suddenly you got God is in the House.
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Another emotional suicide, overdosed on sentiment and pride
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E-Dub
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Posted: February 06 2007 at 15:57 |
 Psychedelia wrote:
I think religion has a detrimental effect on music/bands. I say this because all the bands i have listened to that have found religion were so much better before this. And E-Dub you said that the lyrics aren't what people care about. This is wrong. I don't like listening to Neal Morse because of the atrocious, cringeworthy lyrics. Also it seems to change the musical direction of groups. Classic example is Nick Cave who went from writing fantastic songs about murder and generally nasty things. He found religion and suddenly you got God is in the House. |
Well, I stand by my statement regardless. I don't know how many times I've read on this site, "I just can't get past the 'God' thing," when talking about Neal Morse's musical direction.
As for Nick Cave's transformation, I'd much rather surround myself with God than of murder and other general nasty things. But hey, that's just me.
E
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Masque
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Joined: April 01 2006
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Points: 808
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Posted: February 06 2007 at 19:11 |
fullbug13 wrote:
theBox wrote:
An artist can find this G.hastly O.verrated D.eity without it affecting his creativity. |
I had to re-register just to voice my anger at this. You believe that God is an over-rated deity? I hope that you find the truth before standing in His judgement.
What you all seem to misunderstand, is that Neal Morse & Kerry Livgren have found Christ Jesus as their Savior. They are not out to musically appeal to anyone any longer; they are out to live for God and Jesus Christ. They are using the talents that God has given them to publicly praise and worship our Father and King. Who cares what you think about them or their music! What matters is what God, the 'under-rated, under-worshipped, under-praised & mostly forgotten Creator' wants of them.
I am extremely proud of these men. I am proud of Brian Welch too, former lead guitarist of the hard core metal band Korn. When you find Jesus as who He is, the Savior of man, the ONLY way to personally know God the Father . . . you WANT to praise Him.
These men don't care if you want them to be or do or say what they did BEFORE finding God; they care more about "what does [my] God want from [me]".
Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who willfully sinned!’ |
I read what you said and I think you said it very well .... I don`t agree with you though because the proof of what this topic is about is in the product and the theme is lacking originality . If somebody could come up with some new phrases or a unique innovative way to celebrate God instead of always the same cliches and had a new vision (because lets face it the old cliches Christians use have become less than mentally stimulating) I think more people would embrace the concept of Christianity in Art , if they just let God do the work for them through them without forced or pushed "opinions" perhaps then it would be better conveyed it in their achievement of higher creative output . It just seems almost too easy to repeat the same cliches over and over what Christians need to learn to do is think outside the square not stay in a safe place that never seems to elevate from the norm. I am a Christian BTW in the sense I believe Christ is our savior , but honestly if somebody asks me what I think of the modern age and Christian attitudes that exist these days, I would be quietly thinking "its time we got with the program" and time to stop passing the blame to Satan every time we screw up. , I believe we are not alone in this universe but we have not evolved enough yet to be of any interest to any other species, so my Christian beliefs are challenged. If the people from the period the bible was largely based on 2000 years ago were able to see into the future wouldn`t they have said that the space shuttle was a "white demon" that desecrated the heavens and spewed red fire into eternity and can only be the work of SATAN ? .... we need to evolve and so must the message of Christianity, no more cliches that's what I believe turns many people off (its a different world to 2000 years ago our language has evolved so has our literature) Expression through the unconditional love of fellow man not judgment would be a good start 
Edited by Masque - February 06 2007 at 20:09
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jplanet
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Posted: February 06 2007 at 19:19 |
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This is an interesting topic. I, for one, have a hard time listening to Neal Morse since his salvation. I wondered why I had issue with that and not with Christmas carols, for example. I came to these conclusions:
- Evangelical Christianity calls for conversion of everyone to that doctrine. So, any message you get from an Evangelical lyricist is telling you that you will go to hell unless you follow their path. This is a drag.
- Rock music, when it is good, makes you feel a little...sexy. There's an odd conflict of emotions when feeling like you're "rocking out" and trying to embrace righteousness.
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rileydog22
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Posted: February 06 2007 at 19:37 |
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I don't think that christianity or any religion will nessessarily detrimentally effecty an artist's output, but it tends to. Christian lyrics can be really lame, recycling the same couple of boring phrases. Looking at "Christian rock," the entire genre reeks of uncreative lyrics played over the same boring chord progressions.
And idealogical lyrics always bug me. Ooooh, you love Jesus! I don't give a crap!
However, your spiritual beliefs THEMSELVES do not effect the music if you don't MAKE them effect the music. For example, Robert Fripp underwent a spiritual revelation of some sort in 1974, but I still love his music after then because he keeps it to himself.
Edited by rileydog22 - February 06 2007 at 19:44
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E-Dub
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Posted: February 06 2007 at 19:38 |
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<<Evangelical Christianity calls for conversion of everyone to that doctrine. So, any message you get from an Evangelical lyricist is telling you that you will go to hell unless you follow their path.>>
I'll field this one since the 'sexy' comment is a bit subjective. This may be true in some cases, but I've been listening to the Christian band Mercy Me lately and their songs aren't like this at all. For example: "Homesick" is about being reunited one day with your loved ones who have passed on. This approach seems to be throughout the Christian music I listen to...including Neal Morse. The same can be said for bands like Seventh Day Slumber or Casting Crowns. From what I take from their music is a lot less 'fire and brimstone', and more the simple glorification of their relationship with God. Just a different way of interpreting it, I guess.
E
Edited by E-Dub - February 06 2007 at 19:42
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WaywardSon
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 06:09 |
I think when the lyrics are too over the top or "in your face" it puts a lot of people off the band or artist.
Cryptic Vision is a good example of a band that leaves their lyrics open to interpretation without any "fire and brimstone" preaching.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 06:36 |
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Kings X is another example of a Christian band which is not too obvious in their lyrics. There are some clues though.
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stewe
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 11:56 |
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Two mentioned prog geniuses. One confirms Yes and one No..
N. Morse - While he brought theme of god fully into his lyrics, he bacame quite boring to me (not because of lyrics - I don't care much about them, or even the musicianship, that is top notch, but I feel the lack of music ideas and repeating himself, I find his recent music quite regressive and sterile).
But on the contrary Livgren's music seems to me still fresh and great since his first religious album Seeds of Change, to Collector's Sedition, Somewhere to Elsewhere or his Proto-Kaw albums.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 12:47 |
It depends in what you mean by finding God.
If the artist goes to an extreme of believing that any form of art that doesn’t mention the word Jesus every 2.5 seconds is a sin….the band is ruined, there’s a big difference in being religious and being a fanatic.
The problems are many:
· Most Rock stars had a previous live of excesses of alcohol, drugs, sex, etc so they try to balance this going to the other extreme and this leads to fanaticism.
· The bigots of religious business such as the 700 Club love to find a famous (And usually wealthy $$$$) Rock star, not only because they will try to get his/her bucks, but also because they are their best propaganda, if I had a buck for each time I heard “I was unhappy, sad, depressed, now I found joy and pleasure Mr. Robertson” I would be rich..
· I remember Steve Walsh laughing and saying that if Kerry Livegren would had known how bad he would be treated in the 700 Club, he would had never gone there.
· This leaches abuse of the honest faith of a person to make profit.
But there are the artists that have found God and continue their life normally because they know how to separate they’re inner and honest faith from their public life.
Look at Glass Hammer, I understand that all the members are faithful Christians but they even done an album about The Lord of the Rings (Seen as satanic magic by certain fundamentalist sects), they know that God gave them a talent and they have to use it, they also know the faith is personal and they never tried tp force their audience to share their beliefs.
Mick Box and Lee Kerslake are Christians (As far as I know) but they never did Evangelism with their music or used Uriah Heep as a vehicle to spread their truth.
This kind of Christians deserve my full respect and if they find God, good for them, this will make them more mature and centered persons if they are able to separate their public life from their personal beliefs.
This doesn’t means they have to be silent, if they are interviewed they must tell their fans in what they believe, it’s good and healthy but replacing babe, babe, babe for Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, is simply absurd and I don’t believe God wants a person to waste the talent he gave them playing for a bunch of fanatics instead of crowds that will be inspired by their honest way of life.
Christ said that the best example is given by our acts, a good Christian doesn’t need to shout his faith in every song, this will convince nobody because the audience that will listen them are already fanatics, I wouldn’t go to a Chistian or even Catholic (I’m a Catholic) concert because I don’t believe in this pharisaic demonstrations.
On the other hand a great Rock star that makes great music but lives as an honest, good and humble person is a living example of Religious and in this specific case Christian values for those who believe Rock icons are perverted psychopaths and egomaniacs….Bravo for them.
As our newbie Christian member said: Not everybody who says Lord, Lord, Lord will be saved......Act as a Christian treat the others as you want to be treated by them and believe in your God (Whatever name you believe is the correct one) and you will be saved or even if you don't believe, act as an honest, good person and I believe you are doing right, you don't need to shout your faith in every act of your life, that's what the Pharisees did and Jesus found them repulsive.
Iván
PS: Sorry for the large font, but I wrote it in Word and paste, this ruins the format.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 07 2007 at 13:01
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Snow Dog
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 12:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
PS: Sorry for the large font, but I wrote it in Word and paste, this ruins the format. |
You can change the font in the post though. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 13:03 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
PS: Sorry for the large font, but I wrote it in Word and paste, this ruins the format. |
You can change the font in the post though.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Not in my case SD, I tried but it's worst, the site corrects part of the font and otthers remain big, it's a mess, Sean told me he had the same problem, but I rather a large font than my constant mistakes. 
Iván.
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stewe
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 13:19 |
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As for replacing babe for Jesus.. I remember the episode of South Park called Christian Rock Hard. It always reminds me of N. Morse. Very funny btw :)
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cuncuna
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 13:33 |
This kind of things... I truly think that a large amount of musicians do believe in god. That doesn't really shows in albums. Now, if a guy finds religion, let's say, in a band like Mogwai, resulting this into a huge musical direction, turning Mogwai into a sort of post rock GOSPEL band, with a chorus and etc., I guess that would be bad. Art must be a goal itself, not a vehicle for propaganda.
Errr... Iván: ¿who is Mr. Robertson?. 
Edited by cuncuna - February 07 2007 at 13:35
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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fullbug13
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Joined: February 06 2007
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 13:47 |
Masque wrote:
fullbug13 wrote:
theBox wrote:
An artist can find this G.hastly O.verrated D.eity without it affecting his creativity. |
| I had to re-register just to voice my anger at this. You believe that God is an over-rated deity? I hope that you find the truth before standing in His judgement.
What you all seem to misunderstand, is that Neal Morse & Kerry Livgren have found Christ Jesus as their Savior. They are not out to musically appeal to anyone any longer; they are out to live for God and Jesus Christ. They are using the talents that God has given them to publicly praise and worship our Father and King. Who cares what you think about them or their music! What matters is what God, the 'under-rated, under-worshipped, under-praised & mostly forgotten Creator' wants of them.
I am extremely proud of these men. I am proud of Brian Welch too, former lead guitarist of the hard core metal band Korn. When you find Jesus as who He is, the Savior of man, the ONLY way to personally know God the Father . . . you WANT to praise Him.
These men don't care if you want them to be or do or say what they did BEFORE finding God; they care more about "what does [my] God want from [me]".
Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who willfully sinned!’ |
I read what you said and I think you said it very well ....
I don`t agree with you though because the proof of what this topic is about is in the product and the theme is lacking originality . If somebody could come up with some new phrases or a unique innovative way to celebrate God instead of always the same cliches and had a new vision (because lets face it the old cliches Christians use have become less than mentally stimulating) I think more people would embrace the concept of Christianity in Art , if they just let God do the work for them through them without forced or pushed "opinions" perhaps then it would be better conveyed it in their achievement of higher creative output .
It just seems almost too easy to repeat the same cliches over and over what Christians need to learn to do is think outside the square not stay in a safe place that never seems to elevate from the norm. |
First you say that Christians are "lacking" originality. Hmmm. Well, that's funny, because other posters here have said that Christian lyrics and rock music do not belong together. Would'nt you say that bringing Christian lyrics together with rock music is indeed "original" from the past 2,000 years or even past 20 years? How about "praise and worship" music? I would call that fairly original for our times too. If you need a "new" innovative way to praise God, then give us an example of what you think would be good. What would be better in your opinion that's "outside the same old cliches" - and "outside the box?" How about just one new phrase. You seem bright and articulate, let's have just one phrase. Please, tell us all.
The problem is not that Christians "lack" the ability to reach people through more innovative mediums than in years past, the problem is that society as a whole lacks the interest in what Christians are trying to say. Take for instance the movie "The Nativity Story", released properly at Christmas time, 2006. Here you have a beautifully produced movie about the birth of the Son of God; the actual reason why Christmas is to be celebrated. The domestic gross was $37.6M and worldwide was $45.6M. In contrast, let's look at Brokeback Mountain, a story about gay cowboys; it had a domestic gross of $83M and worldwide was $178M. How about an incredibly stupid movie called Borat; let's look at the figures.
Nativity Story -
Domestic Gross = $37.6M
Worldwide = $45.6M
Average Theater = $2,466
Brokeback Mountain -
Domestic Gross = $83M
Worldwide = $178M
Average Theater = $8,500
Borat -
Domestic Gross = $128M
Worldwide = $248M
Average Theater = $31,607
Basically, people as a whole, are more interested in gay cowboys and imbasillic con-artists than they are in the story of the One who gives a glorious eternal life, with the Creator of ALL things; things far beyond what our minds can possibly comprehend.
| I am a Christian BTW in the sense I believe Christ is our savior , but honestly if somebody asks me what I think of the modern age and Christian attitudes that exist these days, I would be quietly thinking "its time we got with the program" and time to stop passing the blame to Satan every time we screw up. , |
What? Sorry, but neither I nor any one I am around "blame" Satan for committing sin. When I sin, it's all me. Perhaps if you read my testimony on my myspace page you will see that I never blamed Satan one time for all the wicked things I did. Satan might have caused me to be blind as to what would make me happy in life, which is common in all people, but I was the one who committed my sins. If we could blame Satan for our sins, then there would have been no need for Jesus to have died on the cross an extremely painful and tortured death to make the payment for those sins we commit. Just keep in mind that the payment Jesus made for our sins on the cross is only made when we accept that we are sinners and need His forgiveness and mercy as well as our acceptance as Jesus being our Savior and the Son of God.
[QUOTE]I believe we are not alone in this universe but we have not evolved enough yet to be of any interest to any other species, so my Christian beliefs are challenged. If the people from the period the bible was largely based on 2000 years ago were able to see into the future wouldn`t they have said that the space shuttle was a "white demon" that desecrated the heavens and spewed red fire into eternity and can only be the work of SATAN ? .... we need to evolve and so must the message of Christianity, no more cliches that's what I believe turns many people off (its a different world to 2000 years ago our language has evolved so has our literature) |
I also believe that we are not alone in this universe, however I don't think we need to be concerned with anything other than ourselves here on this earth of ours. Isn't this world in enough turmoil as it is than to be concerned about what other "beings" might think of us?
Second, how can you call yourself a Christian, yet believe in the theory of evolution? Am I just misunderstanding you there?
Third, there were prophets of the Bible who spoke of many things, however, the authors of the Bible, as true Christians believe, were inspired by the Holy Spirit during the writing of it. The authors wrote it, but it was under devine inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, what was written in the Bible was exactly and only what God wanted it to be and for us humans to have. Who are you/we to question what God wanted to be written in the Bible? God gave us all that we needed to know to be righteous and pure, yet people cannot even grasp that alone, while trying to grasp for even more. Why do you think God would give us more, when we cannot even hold to what He has given us already?
Fourth, I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that true BORN-AGAIN Christians (there is a HUGE difference in being born-again and just calling yourself a Christian . . . again I've written on this in my myspace page) never have their beliefs challenged; we often have times of not understanding, but that doesn't weigh on our beliefs. When you know in your HEART, not head, but in your heart that Christ Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit is there inside of you, everything changes . . . everything. There is no way to fully explain it until you have experienced it. I spent over 20 years thinking I was a Christian, but Jesus was only in my head, and I had never accepted Him into my heart; the difference is huge!
Fifth, when people decide that the message of Christianity needs to be evolved as you've put it, then basically you are saying that people, NOT GOD, NOT JESUS, and NOT God's word the HOLY BIBLE, should be in control of what is and what is not Christianity. Do you think that God and the Holy Spirit of God went through the trouble of creating His words for us to only be relevent for those people 2,000 years ago? How about 1,000 years ago? How about 500, or 200 years ago? So you are saying basically that God's word, the Bible, is outdated? You are saying that Christianity is boring people, and therefore needs to be re-written, correct?
[QUOTE]Expression through the unconditional love of fellow man not judgment would be a good start
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Let's look at it this way . . . I could give you all the unconditional love that there is possible, but if I never told you the truth in things, what would you gain? What if a parent loved their child every single day without condition, but never gave them any instruction on how to live a good, morally right, integrity filled life? God IS our Father, and His word is our ultimate instruction book. What if God was only a loving God, but never told us through His word how to lives our lives righteously; what good would it do us without His instruction manual? God loves us, but He gave us His word to follow throughout ALL of time, not for just those years that WE feel are relevant.
Matt 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
Give this some thought . . . There is a difference in being judgemental, and having a mind to judge with. I can sound judgemental when I say that strip clubs are wicked, unrighteous places, but actually what I'm saying comes from having a mind that can judge from right and wrong. By only loving someone unconditionally will fail to teach the important things in life, which is why we have churches and preachers and teachers. This was apart of God's word . . . that we spread (sow) the seeds of the gospel, which is exactly what men like Neal Morse and Kerry Livgren are doing!!! Don't you see, they are not making all their music to please you, they are using their ability through music to do just as Jesus Christ Himself said to do.
Here is just one Biblical example of many which says that we Christians are to spread the word, the gospel (as Neal and Kerry do), of Jesus Christ.
Re: Luke Ch 8
The Parable of the Sower
4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
The Purpose of Parables
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’[b]
The Parable of the Sower Explained
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
This post is a perfect example in the fact that society as a whole does not want God/Jesus anywhere, as most of you have stated that you are angry about Christian lyrics in music. You have a choice to not listen. But know for sure, that those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour in our hearts (not in our minds!!!), WE LOVE what Neal Morse is singing. We see as how he is spreading the seeds of God's word, in hopes that some of those seeds will indeed fall on good ground.
Isn't it ironic that there is given by Jesus in that parable 4 different places for the seed of God's word to fall upon, but only 1/4th of those places will the seed spring forth and grow good fruit; it kind of proves how true this poll really is.
I have 3 of my favorite NM songs on my myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/fullbug13) and those songs send chills into me, making me want to cry thinking about God's mercy and love for us all.
My opinion is this, if you need to be more "mentally stimulated" with what Christianity has to offer, then perhaps it's not the Christians who are to blame, but maybe what's in your own heart (or lack thereof); just a possibility. Until you have accepted Christ Jesus into your heart as your Saviour, you no more know Him or God on a personal, intimate, one on one level, than a dog knows how to speak english; you know God and Jesus only in thought (mind) but not in spirit (heart). Through Jesus, the Bible says we must be born-again, and becoming born-again happens in the heart, not in the head.
John 3
The New Birth
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
I mean not to judge, but say these things through love, that through me some will come to know Christ Jesus on an intimate, personal level, with which to know God and His desires for our lives.
If I only give love passively, without standing for the truth in God's word, I have done nothing in spreading the seeds of the gospel of Jesus Christ; my life is therefore wasted in His eyes.
Edited by fullbug13 - February 07 2007 at 14:14
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I Never Knew You - Matt 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
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progismylife
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Points: 15535
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 13:53 |
fullbug13 wrote:
Masque wrote:
fullbug13 wrote:
theBox wrote:
An artist can find this G.hastly O.verrated D.eity without it affecting his creativity. |
I had to re-register just to voice my anger at this. You believe that God is an over-rated deity? I hope that you find the truth before standing in His judgement.
What you all seem to misunderstand, is that Neal Morse & Kerry Livgren have found Christ Jesus as their Savior. They are not out to musically appeal to anyone any longer; they are out to live for God and Jesus Christ. They are using the talents that God has given them to publicly praise and worship our Father and King. Who cares what you think about them or their music! What matters is what God, the 'under-rated, under-worshipped, under-praised & mostly forgotten Creator' wants of them.
I am extremely proud of these men. I am proud of Brian Welch too, former lead guitarist of the hard core metal band Korn. When you find Jesus as who He is, the Savior of man, the ONLY way to personally know God the Father . . . you WANT to praise Him.
These men don't care if you want them to be or do or say what they did BEFORE finding God; they care more about "what does [my] God want from [me]".
Matt. 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who willfully sinned!’ |
I read what you said and I think you said it very well ....
I don`t agree with you though because the proof of what this topic is about is in the product and the theme is lacking originality . If somebody could come up with some new phrases or a unique innovative way to celebrate God instead of always the same cliches and had a new vision (because lets face it the old cliches Christians use have become less than mentally stimulating) I think more people would embrace the concept of Christianity in Art , if they just let God do the work for them through them without forced or pushed "opinions" perhaps then it would be better conveyed it in their achievement of higher creative output .
It just seems almost too easy to repeat the same cliches over and over what Christians need to learn to do is think outside the square not stay in a safe place that never seems to elevate from the norm. |
First you say that Christians are "lacking" originality. Hmmm. Well, that's funny, because other posters here have said that Christian lyrics and rock music do not belong together. Would'nt you say that bringing Christian lyrics together with rock music is indeed "original" from the past 2,000 years or even past 20 years? How about "praise and worship" music? I would call that fairly original for our times too. If you need a "new" innovative way to praise God, then give us an example of what you think would be good. What would be better in your opinion that's "outside the same old cliches" - and "outside the box?" How about just one new phrase. You seem bright and articulate, let's have just one phrase. Please, tell us all.
The problem is not that Christians "lack" the ability to reach people through more innovative mediums than in years past, the problem is that society as a whole lacks the interest in what Christians are trying to say. Take for instance the movie "The Nativity Story", released properly at Christmas time, 2006. Here you have a beautifully produced movie about the birth of the Son of God; the actual reason why Christmas is to be celebrated. The domestic gross was $37.6M and worldwide was $45.6M. In contrast, let's look at Brokeback Mountain, a story about gay cowboys; it had a domestic gross of $83M and worldwide was $178M. How about an incredibly stupid movie called Borat; let's look at the figures.
Nativity Story -
Domestic Gross = $37.6M
Worldwide = $45.6M
Average Theater = $2,466
Brokeback Mountain -
Domestic Gross = $83M
Worldwide = $178M
Average Theater = $8,500
Borat -
Domestic Gross = $128M
Worldwide = $248M
Average Theater = $31,607
Basically, people as a whole, are more interested in gay cowboys and imbasillic con-artists than they are in the story of the One who gives a glorious eternal life, with the Creator of ALL things; things far beyond what our minds can possibly comprehend.
| I am a Christian BTW in the sense I believe Christ is our savior , but honestly if somebody asks me what I think of the modern age and Christian attitudes that exist these days, I would be quietly thinking "its time we got with the program" and time to stop passing the blame to Satan every time we screw up. , |
What? Sorry, but neither I nor any one I am around "blame" Satan for committing sin. When I sin, it's all me. Perhaps if you read my testimony on my myspace page you will see that I never blamed Satan one time for all the wicked things I did. Satan might have caused me to be blind as to what would make me happy in life, which is common in all people, but I was the one who committed my sins. If we could blame Satan for our sins, then there would have been no need for Jesus to have died on the cross an extremely painful and tortured death to make the payment for those sins we commit. Just keep in mind that the payment Jesus made for our sins on the cross is only made when we accept that we are sinners and need His forgiveness and mercy as well as our acceptance as Jesus being our Savior and the Son of God.
| I believe we are not alone in this universe but we have not evolved enough yet to be of any interest to any other species, so my Christian beliefs are challenged. If the people from the period the bible was largely based on 2000 years ago were able to see into the future wouldn`t they have said that the space shuttle was a "white demon" that desecrated the heavens and spewed red fire into eternity and can only be the work of SATAN ? .... we need to evolve and so must the message of Christianity, no more cliches that's what I believe turns many people off (its a different world to 2000 years ago our language has evolved so has our literature) |
I also believe that we are not alone in this universe, however I don't think we need to be concerned with anything other than ourselves here on this earth of ours. Isn't this world in enough turmoil as it is than to be concerned about what other "beings" might think of us?
Second, how can you call yourself a Christian, yet believe in the theory of evolution? Am I just misunderstanding you there?
Third, there were prophets of the Bible who spoke of many things, however, the authors of the Bible, as true Christians believe, were inspired by the Holy Spirit during the writing of it. The authors wrote it, but it was under devine inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, what was written in the Bible was exactly and only what God wanted it to be and for us humans to have. Who are you/we to question what God wanted to be written in the Bible? God gave us all that we needed to know to be righteous and pure, yet people cannot even grasp that alone, while trying to grasp for even more. Why do you think God would give us more, when we cannot even hold to what He has given us already?
Fourth, I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that true BORN-AGAIN Christians (there is a HUGE difference in being born-again and just calling yourself a Christian . . . again I've written on this in my myspace page) never have their beliefs challenged; we often have times of not understanding, but that doesn't weigh on our beliefs. When you know in your HEART, not head, but in your heart that Christ Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit is there inside of you, everything changes . . . everything. There is no way to fully explain it until you have experienced it. I spent over 20 years thinking I was a Christian, but Jesus was only in my head, and I had never accepted Him into my heart; the difference is huge!
Fifth, when people decide that the message of Christianity needs to be evolved as you've put it, then basically you are saying that people, NOT GOD, NOT JESUS, and NOT God's word the HOLY BIBLE, should be in control of what is and what is not Christianity. Do you think that God and the Holy Spirit of God went through the trouble of creating His words for us to only be relevent for those people 2,000 years ago? How about 1,000 years ago? How about 500, or 200 years ago? So you are saying basically that God's word, the Bible, is outdated? You are saying that Christianity is boring people, and therefore needs to be re-written, correct?
[QUOTE]Expression through the unconditional love of fellow man not judgment would be a good start |
Let's look at it this way . . . I could give you all the unconditional love that there is possible, but if I never told you the truth in things, what would you gain? What if a parent loved their child every single day without condition, but never gave them any instruction on how to live a good, morally right, integrity filled life? God IS our Father, and His word is our ultimate instruction book. What if God was only a loving God, but never told us through His word how to lives our lives righteously; what good would it do us without His instruction manual? God loves us, but He gave us His word to follow throughout ALL of time, not for just those years that WE feel are relevant.
Matt 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
Give this some thought . . . There is a difference in being judgemental, and having a mind to judge with. I can sound judgemental when I say that strip clubs are wicked, unrighteous places, but actually what I'm saying comes from having a mind that can judge from right and wrong. By only loving someone unconditionally will fail to teach the important things in life, which is why we have churches and preachers and teachers. This was apart of God's word . . . that we spread (sow) the seeds of the gospel, which is exactly what men like Neal Morse and Kerry Livgren are doing!!! Don't you see, they are not making all their music to please you, they are using their ability through music to do just as Jesus Christ Himself said to do.
Here is just one Biblical example of many which says that we Christians are to spread the word, the gospel (as Neal and Kerry do), of Jesus Christ.
Re: Luke Ch 8
The Parable of the Sower
4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
The Purpose of Parables
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’[b]
The Parable of the Sower Explained
11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.
This post is a perfect example in the fact that society as a whole does not want God/Jesus anywhere, as most of you have stated that you are angry about Christian lyrics in music. You have a choice to not listen. But know for sure, that those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour in our hearts (not in our minds!!!), WE LOVE what Neal Morse is singing. We see as how he is spreading the seeds of God's word, in hopes that some of those seeds will indeed fall on good ground.
Isn't it ironic that there is given by Jesus in that parable 4 different places for the seed of God's word to fall upon, but only 1/4th of those places will the seed spring forth and grow good fruit; it kind of proves how true this poll really is.
I have 3 of my favorite NM songs on my myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/fullbug13) and those songs send chills into me, making me want to cry thinking about God's mercy and love for us all.
My opinion is this, if you need to be more "mentally stimulated" with what Christianity has to offer, then perhaps it's not the Christians who are to blame, but maybe what's in your own heart (or lack thereof); just a possibility. Until you have accepted Christ Jesus into your heart as your Saviour, you no more know Him or God on a personal, intimate, one on one level, than a dog knows how to speak english; you know God and Jesus only in thought (mind) but not in spirit (heart). Through Jesus, the Bible says we must be born-again, and becoming born-again happens in the heart, not in the head.
John 3
The New Birth
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
I mean not to judge, but say these things through love, that through me some will come to know Christ Jesus on an intimate, personal level, with which to know God and His desires for our lives.
If I only give love passively, without standing for the truth in God's word, I have done nothing in spreading the seeds of the gospel of Jesus Christ; my life is therefore wasted in His eyes. |
 I must say that was amazing to read.
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
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Points: 32995
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 14:17 |
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Borat isn't the incredibly stupid movie, The Nativity Story IS!!
Edited by Snow Dog - February 07 2007 at 14:18
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 14:49 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Borat isn't the incredibly stupid movie, The Nativity Story IS!! |
I don't believe The Nativity is a stupid story, but haven't there been enough versions about the same issue.
Until cable reached Perú I always went camping Good Friday long weekend because our TV stations showed the same old movies (Ben Hur, The Ten Copmmandments, etc) for 1,000th time.
BTW; The Nativity may be a beautiful movie, but IT'S A BUSINESS, somebody is making 36'000,000 bucks only in USA with the faith of the people. 
I'm not against faith, by the contrary if you read my posts, I'm against trying to force people to follow OUR truth and telling them all they believe in is false.
Iván
BTW: Cuncuna, Mr Robertson is Pat Robertson, one of the most radical politicians of USA who hides his political agenda with a costume of faith, you must have seen him in the 700 Club, he speaks for hours while the black guy or a woman add Halleluya to each of his words.
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Snow Dog
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 14:56 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Borat isn't the incredibly stupid movie, The Nativity Story IS!! |
I don't believe The Nativity is a stupid story, but haven't there been enough versions about the same issue.
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Yes, but I meant IMO. Do we always have to state that its an opinion? 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 07 2007 at 15:20 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Borat isn't the incredibly stupid movie, The Nativity Story IS!! |
I don't believe The Nativity is a stupid story, but haven't there been enough versions about the same issue.
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Yes, but I meant IMO. Do we always have to state that its an opinion?
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No SD, but if you read I also expressed my opiniohn as you , even said I don't believe it's a stupid story.
Iván
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