When somebody in your favourite band finds "GOD"

. . .  but replacing babe, babe, babe for Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, is simply absurd and I don’t believe God wants a person to waste the talent he gave them playing for a bunch of fanatics instead of crowds that will be inspired by their honest way of life.

 

As our newbie Christian member said: Not everybody who says Lord, Lord, Lord will be saved......

fullbug13 wrote: Masque wrote: fullbug13 wrote: theBox wrote: An artist can find this G.hastly O.verrated D.eity without it affecting his creativity.   [quote>I had to re-register just to voice my anger at this. You believe that God is an over-rated deity? I hope that you find the truth before standing in His judgement.   What you all seem to misunderstand, is that Neal Morse & Kerry Livgren have found Christ Jesus as their Savior. They are not out to musically appeal to anyone any longer; they are out to live for God and Jesus Christ. They are using the talents that God has given them to publicly praise and worship our Father and King. Who cares what you think about them or their music! What matters is what God, the 'under-rated, under-worshipped, under-praised & mostly forgotten Creator'  wants of them.   I am extremely proud of these men. I am proud of Brian Welch too, former lead guitarist of the hard core metal band Korn. When you find Jesus as who He is, the Savior of man, the ONLY way to personally know God the Father . . . you WANT to praise Him.   These men don't care if you want them to be or do or say what they did BEFORE finding God; they care more about "what does [my> God want from [me>".    Matt. 7:21-23   “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who willfully sinned!’    I read what you said and I think you said it very well .... I don`t agree with you though  because the proof of what this topic is about is in the product and the theme is lacking originality . If somebody could come up with some new phrases or a unique innovative way to celebrate God instead of always the same cliches  and had a new vision  (because lets face it the old cliches Christians use have become less than mentally stimulating)  I think more people would embrace the concept of Christianity in Art , if they just let God do the work for them through them without forced or pushed "opinions"   perhaps then it would be better conveyed it in their achievement of higher creative output .  It just seems almost too easy to repeat the same cliches  over and over  what Christians need to learn to do is think outside the square not stay in a safe place that never seems to elevate from the norm.   First you say that Christians are "lacking" originality. Hmmm. Well, that's funny, because other posters here have said that Christian lyrics and rock music do not belong together. Would'nt you say that bringing Christian lyrics together with rock music is indeed "original" from the past 2,000 years or even past 20 years? How about "praise and worship" music? I would call that fairly original for our times too. If you need a "new" innovative way to praise God, then give us an example of what you think would be good. What would be better in your opinion that's "outside the same old cliches" - and "outside the box?"  How about just one new phrase. You seem bright and articulate, let's have just one phrase. Please, tell us all.   The problem is not that Christians "lack" the ability to reach people through more innovative mediums than in years past, the problem is that society as a whole lacks the interest in what Christians are trying to say. Take for instance the movie "The Nativity Story", released properly at Christmas time, 2006. Here you have a beautifully produced movie about the birth of the Son of God; the actual reason why Christmas is to be celebrated. The domestic gross was $37.6M and worldwide was $45.6M. In contrast, let's look at Brokeback Mountain, a story about gay cowboys; it had a domestic gross of $83M and worldwide was $178M. How about an incredibly stupid movie called Borat; let's look at the figures.   Nativity Story - Domestic Gross = $37.6M Worldwide = $45.6M Average Theater = $2,466   Brokeback Mountain - Domestic Gross = $83M Worldwide = $178M Average Theater = $8,500   Borat - Domestic Gross = $128M Worldwide = $248M Average Theater = $31,607   Basically, people as a whole, are more interested in gay cowboys and imbasillic con-artists than they are in the story of the One who gives a glorious eternal life, with the Creator of ALL things; things far beyond what our minds can possibly comprehend.     I am a Christian BTW  in the sense I believe Christ is our savior , but honestly if somebody asks me what I think of the modern age and Christian attitudes that exist these days, I would be quietly thinking "its time we got with the program" and time to stop passing the blame to Satan every time we screw up.   ,   What? Sorry, but neither I nor any one I am around "blame" Satan for committing sin. When I sin, it's all me. Perhaps if you read my testimony on my myspace page you will see that I never blamed Satan one time for all the wicked things I did. Satan might have caused me to be blind as to what would make me happy in life, which is common in all people, but I was the one who committed my sins. If we could blame Satan for our sins, then there would have been no need for Jesus to have died on the cross an extremely painful and tortured death to make the payment for those sins we commit. Just keep in mind that the payment Jesus made for our sins on the cross is only made when we accept that we are sinners and need His forgiveness and mercy as well as our acceptance as Jesus being our Savior and the Son of God.   I  believe we are not alone in this universe  but we have not evolved enough yet to be of any interest to any other species,  so my Christian beliefs are challenged. If the people from the period the bible was largely based on 2000 years ago were able to see into the future wouldn`t they have said that the space shuttle was a "white demon" that desecrated the heavens and spewed red fire into eternity  and can only be the work of SATAN ?    ....    we need to evolve and so must the  message of Christianity,   no more cliches  that's what I believe turns many people off  (its a different world to 2000 years ago our language has evolved so has our literature)   I also believe that we are not alone in this universe, however I don't think we need to be concerned with anything other than ourselves here on this earth of ours. Isn't this world in enough turmoil as it is than to be concerned about what other "beings" might think of us?   Second, how can you call yourself a Christian, yet believe in the theory of evolution? Am I just misunderstanding you there?   Third, there were prophets of the Bible who spoke of many things, however, the authors of the Bible, as true Christians believe, were inspired by the Holy Spirit during the writing of it. The authors wrote it, but it was under devine inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, what was written in the Bible was exactly and only what God wanted it to be and for us humans to have. Who are you/we to question what God wanted to be written in the Bible? God gave us all that we needed to know to be righteous and pure, yet people cannot even grasp that alone, while trying to grasp for even more. Why do you think God would give us more, when we cannot even hold to what He has given us already?   Fourth, I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that true BORN-AGAIN Christians (there is a HUGE difference in being born-again and just calling yourself a Christian . . . again I've written on this in my myspace page) never have their beliefs challenged; we often have times of not understanding, but that doesn't weigh on our beliefs. When you know in your HEART, not head, but in your heart that Christ Jesus in the form of the Holy Spirit is there inside of you, everything changes . . . everything. There is no way to fully explain it until you have experienced it. I spent over 20 years thinking I was a Christian, but Jesus was only in my head, and I had never accepted Him into my heart; the difference is huge!      Fifth, when people decide that the message of Christianity needs to be evolved as you've put it, then basically you are saying that people, NOT GOD, NOT JESUS, and NOT God's word the HOLY BIBLE, should be in control of what is and what is not Christianity. Do you think that God and the Holy Spirit of God went through the trouble of creating His words for us to only be relevent for those people 2,000 years ago? How about 1,000 years ago? How about 500, or 200 years ago? So you are saying basically that God's word, the Bible, is outdated? You are saying that Christianity is boring people, and therefore needs to be re-written, correct?  [QUOTE]Expression through the unconditional love of fellow man not judgment would be a good start    Let's look at it this way . . . I could give you all the unconditional love that there is possible, but if I never told you the truth in things, what would you gain? What if a parent loved their child every single day without condition, but never gave them any instruction on how to live a good, morally right, integrity filled life? God IS our Father, and His word is our ultimate instruction book. What if God was only a loving God, but never told us through His word how to lives our lives righteously; what good would it do us without His instruction manual? God loves us, but He gave us His word to follow throughout ALL of time, not for just those years that WE feel are relevant.   Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.     Give this some thought . . . There is a difference in being judgemental, and having a mind to judge with. I can sound judgemental when I say that strip clubs are wicked, unrighteous places, but actually what I'm saying comes from having a mind that can judge from right and wrong. By only loving someone unconditionally will fail to teach the important things in life, which is why we have churches and preachers and teachers. This was apart of God's word . . . that we spread (sow) the seeds of the gospel, which is exactly what men like Neal Morse and Kerry Livgren are doing!!! Don't you see, they are not making all their music to please you, they are using their ability through music to do just as Jesus Christ Himself said to do.   Here is just one Biblical example of many which says that we Christians are to spread the word, the gospel (as Neal and Kerry do), of Jesus Christ.   Re: Luke Ch 8 <H5>The Parable of the Sower</H5> <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-25244 ="sup">4</SPAN> And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25245 ="sup">5</SPAN> “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25246 ="sup">6</SPAN> Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25247 ="sup">7</SPAN> And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25248 ="sup">8</SPAN> But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”   <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25249 ="sup">The Purpose of Parables</SPAN> <SPAN ="sup"></SPAN>  <SPAN ="sup">9</SPAN> Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?” <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-25250 ="sup">10</SPAN> And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that <BR \>         ‘ Seeing they may not see,      And hearing they may not understand.’[b> <H5>The Parable of the Sower Explained</H5>  <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25251 ="sup">11</SPAN> “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25252 ="sup">12</SPAN> Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25253 ="sup">13</SPAN> But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25254 ="sup">14</SPAN> Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-25255 ="sup">15</SPAN> But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.   This post is a perfect example in the fact that society as a whole does not want God/Jesus anywhere, as most of you have stated that you are angry about Christian lyrics in music. You have a choice to not listen. But know for sure, that those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ as Saviour in our hearts (not in our minds!!!), WE LOVE what Neal Morse is singing. We see as how he is spreading the seeds of God's word, in hopes that some of those seeds will indeed fall on good ground.   Isn't it ironic that there is given by Jesus in that parable 4 different places for the seed of God's word to fall upon, but only 1/4th of those places will the seed spring forth and grow good fruit; it kind of proves how true this poll really is.     I have 3 of my favorite NM songs on my myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/fullbug13[/COLOR">) and those songs send chills into me, making me want to cry thinking about God's mercy and love for us all.   My opinion is this, if you need to be more "mentally stimulated" with what Christianity has to offer, then perhaps it's not the Christians who are to blame, but maybe what's in your own heart (or lack thereof); just a possibility. Until you have accepted Christ Jesus into your heart as your Saviour, you no more know Him or God on a personal, intimate, one on one level, than a dog knows how to speak english; you know God and Jesus only in thought (mind) but not in spirit (heart). Through Jesus, the Bible says we must be born-again, and becoming born-again happens in the heart, not in the head.   John 3 <H5>The New Birth</H5>  <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26116 ="sup">1</SPAN> There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26117 ="sup">2</SPAN> This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”<BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-26118 ="sup">3</SPAN> Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-26119 ="sup">4</SPAN> Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-26120 ="sup">5</SPAN> Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26121 ="sup">6</SPAN> That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26122 ="sup">7</SPAN> Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26123 ="sup">8</SPAN> The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-26124 ="sup">9</SPAN> Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?” <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-26125 ="sup">10</SPAN> Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26126 ="sup">11</SPAN> Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26127 ="sup">12</SPAN> If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26128 ="sup">13</SPAN> No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a> <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26129 ="sup">14</SPAN> And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26130 ="sup">15</SPAN> that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b> have eternal life. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26131 ="sup">16</SPAN> For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26132 ="sup">17</SPAN> For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. <BR \><SPAN id=en-NKJV-26133 ="sup">18</SPAN> “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26134 ="sup">19</SPAN> And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26135 ="sup">20</SPAN> For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. <SPAN id=en-NKJV-26136 ="sup">21</SPAN> But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”   I mean not to judge, but say these things through love, that through me some will come to know Christ Jesus on an intimate, personal level, with which to know God and His desires for our lives.    If I only give love passively, without standing for the truth in God's word, I have done nothing in spreading the seeds of the gospel of Jesus Christ; my life is therefore wasted in His eyes.

Coming up on a year as a member of PA, and this could be the best post I've ever read. Excellent!

E

jplanet wrote: When a performer that you like becomes born again, it becomes a bait-and-switch situation. It's like getting hooked on Starbuck's Coffee, and then suddenly having to anoint yourself with holy water before ordering your latte.It's a drag because evangelicals do not espouse a "live-and-let-live" doctrine. It's about them being right, and the rest of us going to hell. It's so dogmatic, that even subtle differences between churches causes horrible in-fighting. The Spanish Inquisition was based on the premise of spreading the word. Unfortunately, people are imperfect enough that most of them can't be trusted to do this task in a peaceful and loving way.Sorry, but after Anita Bryant in 1978, there's enough reason to say that it sucks when musicians...ESPECIALLY lyricists, become "saved".

I totally don't get the Starbuck's analogy. Please, PLEASE explain because I'm totally at a loss for words on this.

And it's not about them (Pastors, Preachers, etc.) being right at all. Those who are truly in servitude to Him are humbled in the presence of God. I know that our Pastor will be the FIRST to tell you how flawed he is and he uses it in his sermons. What they do isn't about them, but for God. If you truly believe this, then you haven't been to the right church.

E

Edited by E-Dub - February 07 2007 at 16:34

E-Dub wrote: I totally don't get the Starbuck's analogy. Please, PLEASE explain because I'm totally at a loss for words on this.

When Neal Morse wrote Stranger in Your Soul, and everything before Testimony, it only demanded of me that I listen, and allowed me to relate to it in any number of ways. I could listen to those lyrics, be an agnostic, Buddhist, Wiccan, and feel that I was listening to the words of a spiritual peer.

But once Testimony rolled along, my specific spiritual understanding was judged. It is impossible to relate to without being Christian.

Had his lyrics always been deeply Christian, it would be far more acceptable. I once had a "friend" n Neal Morse, now I've got someone who is telling me that he knows how I should live my life but I don't.

E-Dub wrote: And it's not about them (Pastors, Preachers, etc.) being right at all. Those who are truly in servitude to Him are humbled in the presence of God. I know that our Pastor will be the FIRST to tell you how flawed he is and he uses it in his sermons. What they do isn't about them, but for God. If you truly believe this, then you haven't been to the right church.

You're only looking at it from a Christian point of view. I know Jewish people who are religious, and believe that God has a plan for non-Jews, and that they don't know what that plan is. That is very humble compared to the evangelical point of view, which is very clear on what God's plan is for non-Christians. I am referring to evangelical Christians' inability to think "maybe God wants Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism, etc. for a reason".

In other words, they are not humbled by God's creations, only by God himself. But God's creations are supposed to be a part of God also, right?

I am uncomfortable with religions that teach that everyone else but them is doomed to hell.


Edited by jplanet - February 07 2007 at 16:48

well, I'm not saying that this is incontrovertible proof of my point or whatever, but when christianity is introduced into an artform or a debate everything else can become of secondary importance. for example you applauded the very long and very gospel post that another member made as the best post you'd seen all year and that's crazy to me because I think of this as a place to discuss music. just observin'

laplace wrote: well, I'm not saying that this is incontrovertible proof of my point or whatever, but when christianity is introduced into an artform or a debate everything else can become of secondary importance. for example you applauded the very long and very gospel post that another member made as the best post you'd seen all year and that's crazy to me because I think of this as a place to discuss music. just observin'

If that were the case, then the Admins wouldn't have devised all of the little non-music rooms, to which this thread probably needs to be moved.

What might be crazy for you sounds like the truth to me, my man. I'm not a prog robot. If I see something that strikes me at my very core, then I'll applaud it. Sue me, but I'll put my faith in God before music in general. It's where you have your priorities invested, I guess.

E

Edited by E-Dub - February 07 2007 at 17:02

A difficult one to answer really. As an atheist myself, I have no problem if someone wishes to believe in a God. But I don't think it should affect their musical output.

E-Dub wrote: The Wizard wrote: The simple truth is that I would get really pissed off if an artist I really loved made rebellious and edgy music then suddenly found god and decided to sing about nothing but Jesus. For some reason it doesnt bother me at all when artist find eastern religion, but when they 'find' Christianity it makes me angry. Maybe it's because I've had a terrible experience with Christianity in my life and I find Eastern philosophies more interesting and not as forced as Christianity. Forced? Man, I don't know what you had to deal with, but I NEVER felt pressured. When I was delivered, while heads were bowed, the pastor simply asked those in attendance if anyone wanted to give their life to God, simply raise your hand and I would be more than happy to speak with you after the service." That's EXACTLY how it happened and never felt pressured. I did it on my own free will. E

I have no doubt that the church you belong to is cool and does not use fear or trickery to gain new members, but you can't honestly tell me that you have never heard of churches using coercive tactics.

Just as an experiment, tell people in your church that you are thinking about leaving to join another church. See if the "soft-sell" approach is still put into action. If they indicate that you are free to do so, and that God must be calling you to do so for a reason, then by all means, stay with that church for your lifetime. But more than likely, someone will pull you aside to have "a little talk".

There is a very subtle "guilt trip" when you walk out of a meeting intended to recruit new church members. Subtle, but powerful.

BTW, Ed-dub, I did take the time to explain my post for you above...

E-Dub wrote: jplanet wrote: When a performer that you like becomes born again, it becomes a bait-and-switch situation. It's like getting hooked on Starbuck's Coffee, and then suddenly having to anoint yourself with holy water before ordering your latte.It's a drag because evangelicals do not espouse a "live-and-let-live" doctrine. It's about them being right, and the rest of us going to hell. It's so dogmatic, that even subtle differences between churches causes horrible in-fighting. The Spanish Inquisition was based on the premise of spreading the word. Unfortunately, people are imperfect enough that most of them can't be trusted to do this task in a peaceful and loving way.Sorry, but after Anita Bryant in 1978, there's enough reason to say that it sucks when musicians...ESPECIALLY lyricists, become "saved". I totally don't get the Starbuck's analogy. Please, PLEASE explain because I'm totally at a loss for words on this. And it's not about them (Pastors, Preachers, etc.) being right at all. Those who are truly in servitude to Him are humbled in the presence of God. I know that our Pastor will be the FIRST to tell you how flawed he is and he uses it in his sermons. What they do isn't about them, but for God. If you truly believe this, then you haven't been to the right church. E

Meh, I don't care. As long as it doesn't effect the music. All too often, Christian bands focus on the "message" more than the music. This is why I can't stand "worship bands." If I want to listen to music, I want to listen to MUSIC, not words with a flicker of sound in the background.