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Topic ClosedWhen somebody in your favourite band finds "GOD"

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Poll Question: is The God thing a good thing for the band or not ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
14 [25.93%]
40 [74.07%]
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Failcore View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2007 at 19:31
I didn't vote because I don't agree with either option. I think most of the time Christianity has ruined the music, but only because the writers felt this strange compulsion to express what is supposed to be an inspiring truth with the most uninspired and bland music and lyrics on the planet. I cannot stand almost all Christian bands because of this. However bands like Proto-Kaw don't bug me with its overtly religious leanings because the lyrics are over simplified dumbed down crap (what's with the trend of simplifying an infinitely complex being anyway) and neither is the music. Livgren himself even wrote an article lashing out at other Christian artists for being so crappy and dull. If I ever decide to write music worshiping God (big if since I haven't a musical bone in my body,) it won't be cheap crap that a three yr old could write in 5 minutes. Anyways /rant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:37
im a little late on this but...


im not voting for either one. i really havent been into a band where it really affects the band either way. (besides the whole Neal Morse issue).
"...the only excuse for not knowing, is not wanting to know."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:40
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

I didn't vote because I don't agree with either option. I think most of the time Christianity has ruined the music, but only because the writers felt this strange compulsion to express what is supposed to be an inspiring truth with the most uninspired and bland music and lyrics on the planet. I cannot stand almost all Christian bands because of this. However bands like Proto-Kaw don't bug me with its overtly religious leanings because the lyrics are over simplified dumbed down crap (what's with the trend of simplifying an infinitely complex being anyway) and neither is the music. Livgren himself even wrote an article lashing out at other Christian artists for being so crappy and dull. If I ever decide to write music worshiping God (big if since I haven't a musical bone in my body,) it won't be cheap crap that a three yr old could write in 5 minutes. Anyways /rant.


You really should hear some of the Christian music I've been listening to. I know what sort of lyrics to which you're referring, and I assure you that it's nothing like that.

E
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:42
Originally posted by laplace laplace wrote:

you see? your minds aren't on the music. ;)


Well, you're almost there. Our minds ARE on the music; however, our hearts are on the message.

E
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:44
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:



Originally posted by E-Dub E-Dub wrote:

I totally don't get the Starbuck's analogy. Please, PLEASE explain because I'm totally at a loss for words on this.
When Neal Morse wrote Stranger in Your Soul, and everything before Testimony, it only demanded of me that I listen, and allowed me to relate to it in any number of ways. I could listen to those lyrics, be an agnostic, Buddhist, Wiccan, and feel that I was listening to the words of a spiritual peer.But once Testimony rolled along, my specific spiritual understanding was judged. It is impossible to relate to without being Christian.Had his lyrics always been deeply Christian, it would be far more acceptable. I once had a "friend" n Neal Morse, now I've got someone who is telling me that he knows how I should live my life but I don't.

Originally posted by E-Dub E-Dub wrote:

And it's not about them (Pastors, Preachers, etc.) being right at all. Those who are truly in servitude to Him are humbled in the presence of God. I know that our Pastor will be the FIRST to tell you how flawed he is and he uses it in his sermons. What they do isn't about them, but for God. If you truly believe this, then you haven't been to the right church.
You're only looking at it from a Christian point of view. I know Jewish people who are religious, and believe that God has a plan for non-Jews, and that they don't know what that plan is. That is very humble compared to the evangelical point of view, which is very clear on what God's plan is for non-Christians. I am referring to evangelical Christians' inability to think "maybe God wants Wicca, Hinduism and Buddhism, etc. for a reason".In other words, they are not humbled by God's creations, only by God himself. But God's creations are supposed to be a part of God also, right?I am uncomfortable with religions that teach that everyone else but them is doomed to hell.


OK, but you're looking at it from a non-Christian point-of-view. You're guilty of the exact same thing.

Not sure how one can be left feeling judged from Testimony, being that is autobiographical.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2007 at 21:59
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:


Originally posted by E-Dub E-Dub wrote:

Originally posted by The Wizard The Wizard wrote:

The simple truth is that I would get really pissed off if an artist I really loved made rebellious and edgy music then suddenly found god and decided to sing about nothing but Jesus. For some reason it doesnt bother me at all when artist find eastern religion, but when they 'find' Christianity it makes me angry. Maybe it's because I've had a terrible experience with Christianity in my life and I find Eastern philosophies more interesting and not as forced as Christianity.


Forced? Man, I don't know what you had to deal with, but I NEVER felt pressured. When I was delivered, while heads were bowed, the pastor simply asked those in attendance if anyone wanted to give their life to God, simply raise your hand and I would be more than happy to speak with you after the service." That's EXACTLY how it happened and never felt pressured. I did it on my own free will.

E
I have no doubt that the church you belong to is cool and does not use fear or trickery to gain new members, but you can't honestly tell me that you have never heard of churches using coercive tactics.Just as an experiment, tell people in your church that you are thinking about leaving to join another church. See if the "soft-sell" approach is still put into action. If they indicate that you are free to do so, and that God must be calling you to do so for a reason, then by all means, stay with that church for your lifetime. But more than likely, someone will pull you aside to have "a little talk".There is a very subtle "guilt trip" when you walk out of a meeting intended to recruit new church members. Subtle, but powerful. BTW, Ed-dub, I did take the time to explain my post for you above...


We have been to a church that was a little too 'in your face' and we didn't feel comfortable with it at all. We never returned. I can't defend every single Christian church. I hope you understand that each one has different characteristics. My mom's church is very charismatic with a lot of speaking in tongues, and although it was filled with the Spirit, it didn't suit our needs.

To address your other scenario, we have left a church to which we were attending for a very long time. We wanted one closer to home and with a bit more of a contemporary and (pardon the pun) progressive personality. We found our current church up here and when we go, we're met with handshakes, smiles, and sometimes hugs. Just like music, you've got to go with your tastes.

Addressing the part about informing the church about leaving: the closest I can come to that is the period between the church we left and our current church, there was about a year when we didn't go. My father passes away and the Pastor conducting the service is the same Pastor of the church we had left. We spoke with Pastor Fite after the service and asked where we were going to church. When we said that we hadn't found one yet, rather than coercing us to come back to his church, Pastor Fite says, "You know, we have people coming from a good distance to our church every Sunday. Some just walk around the corner. The important thing is to not only find a church to which you're comfortable, but just go to church. It doesn't have to be this church. Just find a church that makes you comfortable and go." So, in essence, he was saying that it was OK to go to another church. Not that we needed his blessing, but he applied zero pressure on us to come back to his church.

As I said, I can't defend every single church. You're going to find rogue churches that do things that you and I don't agree with. You simply have to go to one that makes you feel like you're coming home. And we definitely feel like we're home when we go to our church.

E
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 00:42
Hey E-Dub, nice post!

Cheers,

John
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 02:10
To our newbie preacher.
 
I can't understand a person boasting about being a fanatic.
 
R-Dub podst is coherent and I understand his position, he's an honest believer and despite I may and have disagreements with his ideas, I respect them all.
 
Now this is the fanatic intollerance I'm talking about (Prpaganda at the top of this page):
 
Quote Bible Prophecy Reveals
Next And Last Pope
Will Be A
Devil Impersonating John Paul II
.
 
 
For God's sake, are this guys for real?
 
It gets worst with bigotry:
 
Quote No one is better suited for carrying the agenda of Satan than John Paul II http://www.worldslastchance.com/next_and_last_pope.php 
 
And now it gets insane: Confused
 
Quote
 
Are you still proud of calling yourself a fanatic?????????
 
For God's sake, move this thread.
 
Ivámn
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 02:15
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

To our newbie preacher.
 
I can't understand a person boasting about being a fanatic.
 
R-Dub podst is coherent and I understand his position, he's an honest believer and despite I may and have disagreements with his ideas, I respect them all.
 
Now this is the fanatic intollerance I'm talking about (Prpaganda at the top of this page):
 
Quote Bible Prophecy Reveals
Next And Last Pope
Will Be A
Devil Impersonating John Paul II
.
 
 
For God's sake, are this guys for real?
 
It gets worst with bigotry:
 
Quote No one is better suited for carrying the agenda of Satan than John Paul II http://www.worldslastchance.com/next_and_last_pope.php 
 
And now it gets insane: Confused
 
Quote
 
Are you still proud of calling yourself a fanatic?????????
 
For God's sake, move this thread.
 
Ivámn


You should read the Geneva Bible. It is full of that stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 19:47
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

To our newbie preacher.
 
I can't understand a person boasting about being a fanatic.
 
R-Dub podst is coherent and I understand his position, he's an honest believer and despite I may and have disagreements with his ideas, I respect them all.
 
Now this is the fanatic intollerance I'm talking about (Prpaganda at the top of this page):
 
Quote Bible Prophecy Reveals
Next And Last Pope
Will Be A
Devil Impersonating John Paul II
.
 
 
For God's sake, are this guys for real?
 
It gets worst with bigotry:
 
Quote No one is better suited for carrying the agenda of Satan than John Paul II http://www.worldslastchance.com/next_and_last_pope.php 
 
And now it gets insane: Confused
 
Quote
 
Are you still proud of calling yourself a fanatic?????????
 
For God's sake, move this thread.
 
Ivámn
 
I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
 
You labeled me a fanatic in a sense, and that's fine with me. I am NOT a Catholic, but I am a PROTESTANT. In case you don't know the history, it was through Martin Luther that we Protestants broke away from Catholisism because the Catholic teachings were so ascewed and twisted. Martin Luther saw what was happening in the Catholic church, saw the wrong doing and was the reason that the Germans ended up having Bibles of their own language to read (which then spread into Britian and in english text).  .  . which the Catholic church in Rome was forbidding. History Dude, read it, study it, and then do what few Catholics do . . . . study GOD'S WORD THE BIBLE!!! You can say that believing in any god of your choice will get you to heaven, you can say that being a good person will get you to heaven, you can say that works will get you into heaven, but if you believe anything about the Bible and Jesus Christ, you better get with the program of what the Bible says, not some Pope surrounded by gold that was coherced from poor peasants who thought it would get their loved ones out of pergatory faster . . . . which of course the Catholic Hierachy in Rome didn't want them to know that there was NO SUCH PLACE as pergatory written about in the Bible and why they made it illegal for the common folk to own and read the Bible. Thank GOD literally that there was a man brave enough to stand up to the Pope and hierachy of Rome and risk being beheaded to translate the Bible into German. Of course the Guttenburg press had just been invented allowing Martin's translated Bible from Latin into German to be printed and the rest is HISTORY! Read about it, then study GOD's WORD and then tell me one good reason why anyone should pray a single word to Mary!
 
I stand behind my religion because I have educated myself on many religions. I don't sit back and rely on what my family upbringing was; Buddha is dead, Mohammed is dead and a wacked out pedophile anyway, aliens are not going to save man but Jesus proved through HISTORIC ACCOUNTS WITNESSED BY THOUSANDS that He was who He said He was and what happened in my life April 18th 2004 proved to me that He is the Son of God and I will stand in the Kingdom of Heaven with Him one day.
 
 
And Mary, as good a person as she was, was still a sinner and can no more hear my prayers than my dogs can. God hears me, Jesus hears me and no I don't think the Pope is the Anti-christ . . . . but I do believe we are in the last 20 years before the rapture and I believe the anti-christ is alive today!
 
Yeah, I'll be all the fanatic I can be for my King, my Saviour and my Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God!  I would be proud for people to see me as a fanatic for the King and I'm sure Jesus and God the Father would be proud of me as well. It only reminds me of the song by DC Talk, Jesus Freak:
 
What will people think
When they hear that Im a Jesus freak?
What will people do
When they find thats its true?

Separated, I cut myself clean
From a past that comes back in my darkest of dreams
Been apprehended by a spiritual force
And a grace that replaced all the me Ive divorced
 
What will people think
When they hear that Im a Jesus freak
What will people do when they find that its true
I dont really care if they label me a Jesus freak
There aint no disguising the truth
 
People say Im strange, does it make me a stranger
That my best Friend was born in a manger

What will people think
What will people do
I dont really care
what else can I say
There aint no disguising the truth
Jesus is the way
Peace, word, out.
  


Edited by fullbug13 - February 08 2007 at 20:06
I Never Knew You - Matt 7:21-23
   
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 19:53
Is there an "it depends" option? Neal Morse does some pretty cool stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed ? and I will buy his next album.
However, some Christian stuff is stupid. Proto-kaw gets a bit annoying. I like it when the Christianity creates a new drive.
It should be noted that I'm an Agnostic, and not a Christian, though I'm forced to endure Catholic church every Sunday. I do like some Christian music, partly because my dad, who is Protestant and not Catholic, is very into religion. Actually, he's only one test away from his masters in theology. His love of Christian music (very sophisticated praise and worship and also some gospel, and by gospel I mean the kind that influenced soul music)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 20:00
Originally posted by Arrrghus Arrrghus wrote:

Is there an "it depends" option? Neal Morse does some pretty cool stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed ? and I will buy his next album.
However, some Christian stuff is stupid. Proto-kaw gets a bit annoying. I like it when the Christianity creates a new drive.
It should be noted that I'm an Agnostic, and not a Christian, though I'm forced to endure Catholic church every Sunday. I do like some Christian music, partly because my dad, who is Protestant and not Catholic, is very into religion. Actually, he's only one test away from his masters in theology. His love of Christian music (very sophisticated praise and worship and also some gospel, and by gospel I mean the kind that influenced soul music)
 
Dude, where is your dad studying at? One of my best friends is finishing his PhD in Theology at Southwestern (?) Theological Seminary in New Orleans.
I Never Knew You - Matt 7:21-23
   
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 20:02
Fullbug, what Church do you belong to?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 20:07
Originally posted by fullbug13 fullbug13 wrote:

Originally posted by Arrrghus Arrrghus wrote:

Is there an "it depends" option? Neal Morse does some pretty cool stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed ? and I will buy his next album. However, some Christian stuff is stupid. Proto-kaw gets a bit annoying. I like it when the Christianity creates a new drive. It should be noted that I'm an Agnostic, and not a Christian, though I'm forced to endure Catholic church every Sunday. I do like some Christian music, partly because my dad, who is Protestant and not Catholic, is very into religion. Actually, he's only one test away from his masters in theology. His love of Christian music (very sophisticated praise and worship and also some gospel, and by gospel I mean the kind that influenced soul music)

 

Dude, where is your dad studying at? One of my best friends is finishing his PhD in Theology at Southwestern (?) Theological Seminary in New Orleans.


He's not studying at the moment. He feels he shouldn't complete his degree until his present state follows what he preaches (tough personal problems).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 20:11
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

Fullbug, what Church do you belong to?
 
First Baptist Church, Downtown Jacksonville Florida. We are one of the largest churches in the Southern Baptist Convention, with 28,000 members although we only have about 10,000 on Sunday mornings.
 
Our services are aired live on the internet at www.fbcjax.com, Sunday mornings / nights and Wednesday nights.
I Never Knew You - Matt 7:21-23
   
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2007 at 21:40
Ivan replies in bold black.
 
Originally posted by fullbug13 fullbug13 wrote:

 
I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. 
 
That was a quote from a Protestant page, something you won't find in an official Catholic Church against any Religion.
 
You labeled me a fanatic in a sense, and that's fine with me. I am NOT a Catholic, but I am a PROTESTANT. In case you don't know the history, it was through Martin Luther that we Protestants broke away from Catholisism because the Catholic teachings were so ascewed and twisted.
 
You won't teach me about this fullbug, I studied Theology in the University, Martin Luther was an anisemitic unsatisfied with his role in the Church and  conflictedwith his own analysis of the Bible (Was devout of the Virgin but at the same time didn't fully accepted her) that doesn't have to be right or wrong, it's his own analysis.
 
It's however interesting how you avoid what you can't answer.
 
This are some quotes from your Holy Man:
 
Quote "Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."

"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."  LOL

"The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ's sake."

"your sin cannot cast you into hell"
 
ClapClapClap (Sarcasm of course) Very comfortable position, do what ever you want and nothing will happen, sin with feedom, murder 1,000 times a day, who cares about moral values if Jesus has already saved you.
 
According to this, Hitler may be in heaven if he believed in God, and his 6'000,000 of victims murdered and tortured by him are in hell despite how good and moral persons they could have been.
 
He even says that it's OK to murder a thousand times a day....Don't the Ten Commandments say YOU SHALL NOT KILL?
 
Who was Luther to go against the Bible he said to believe literally?
 
But the next quote would make Hitler proud:
 
Quote "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves"

"We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."

"The blind Jews are truly stupid fools"

"Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people."

"eject them forever from this country"

"they are nothing but thieves and robbers"

"What then shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?" Hitler answered this question. Angry

"Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews"

"They are the real liars and bloodhounds"

"We are at fault for not slaying them."

"I shall give you my sincere advice: first to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them." Again Hitler followed his advice

"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them"

"If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs"

"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham'."
 
All this quotes are from an Anabaptist (PROTESTANT WEB PAGE LOL) http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm
 
EACH QUOTE IS TRIPLE CHECKED FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES.
 
How can Luther talk about the Bible and make mockery of Abrahan and Baptism saying:  
 
"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham'.
 
Isn't Baptism for any man or woman who honestly wants to accept Christ? Or is it only for Luther an his Germanic race?
 
Is this the great man you talk about????
 
Here is a bit more:
 
Quote

Martin Luther’s Attitude Toward The Jews

 By James Swan

June 2005

...Luther considered his early treatise from 1523 soft mercy: an appeal to the Jews to convert. Now, Luther attempts to use harsh mercy: forcing the Jews to convert and to protect Christians from blasphemy. Luther gives his infamous seven recommendations to the political authorities:  

Recommendation One:

“First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly—and I myself was unaware of it—will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.”[131]

 

Recommendation Two:

“Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.”[ii][132]

 

Recommendation Three:

“Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.”[iii][133]

 

 

Recommendation Four:

“Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: “what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord.” Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people’s obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 [:18], “You are Peter,” etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.”[iv][134]

 

Recommendation Five:

“Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses—his ambition is to become a Kokhba—devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in all their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.”[v][135]

 

Recommendation Six:

“Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God’s blessing in a good and worthy cause.”[vi][136]

 

Recommendation Seven:

“Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.”[vii][137]

 

These seven recommendations give this writing its infamy. Countless web pages, all with the goal of “exposing” Luther as an anti-Semite usually highlight this section. It is the lowest of point in Luther’s work.  Scholars have chastised Luther:


 
That's the true Luther, that's how he thought, he wast t inspiratuion of Hitler, Himler, and Hess.
 
Sounds ,more like Mein Kampf than as a Christian manifesto.
 
You can also read all of his antisemitic texts and still feel proud.
 
But I don't believe Lutherans are sinners, no they have the right to believe in what they want...that's being tolerant.
 
Martin Luther saw what was happening in the Catholic church, saw the wrong doing and was the reason that the Germans ended up having Bibles of their own language to read (which then spread into Britian and in english text).  .  . which the Catholic church in Rome was forbidding. History Dude, read it, study it, and then do what few Catholics do . . . . study GOD'S WORD THE BIBLE!!!
 
Thank Catholic Church for that, there are more than 8,196 denominational Protestant denominations, all claim to own the truth, some say Christian Rock is Satanic, other say that it's OK, the non denominational accuse the denominational of being heretics, etc. I don't claim to know who is right and who is wrong, that only God knows, maybe all are right or all are wrong partially
 
If the Catholic Church would had allowed to read the Bible (BTW, 95% of the population was unable to read anything in the Middle Ages, so what was the point?), you wouldn't have 8,196 denominational Churches (According to David Barrett in 1970 and more than 10,000 according to other sources), maybe 500,000 Protestant denominations that are not able to agree with youselves.
 
The Catholic Church is still one, probably will rejoin with Orthodox's in the next decade and Anglicans, in the same term, what is more significative, the conversations with the Lutherans have already started, despite the problems, the mistakes comited for which the Pope was humble enough to apologize publicly, our Church is still one and only one.
 
BTW: Sorry to be rude but who are you to say that few Catholics study the Bible? Are you remotely familiar with Catholic Church? Have you studied in our schools and Universities all around the World?
 
I studied in a Catholic School as millions around the world and we study the Bible daily.
 
 You can say that believing in any god of your choice will get you to heaven, you can say that being a good person will get you to heaven, you can say that works will get you into heaven, but if you believe anything about the Bible and Jesus Christ, you better get with the program of what the Bible says, not some Pope surrounded by gold that was coherced from poor peasants who thought it would get their loved ones out of pergatory faster . . . . which of course the Catholic Hierachy in Rome didn't want them to know that there was NO SUCH PLACE as pergatory written about in the Bible and why they made it illegal for the common folk to own and read the Bible. T
 
Or you SOUND like a bigot or a fanatic (I forgot, you're proud of his term) who believe in everything  you have heard, we make our interpretation of the Bible guided by the Pope WHO WAS MENTIONED SPECIFICLY  IN THE BIBLE:
 
[quote]Matthew 16:18: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church. [/quote]
 
Peter means ROCK, STONE in Greek and Latin, you can analyze however you want, but Jesus changed the name of Simon to PETRUS (ROCK in Latin) or Petria (Rock in Greek) and said that over this rock he will create his Church, why would he change Simon's name to Rock if that wasn't his intention? Maybe a joke? A play of words?
 
The interpretation of your Pastor (With most surely less theological background than the Pope who was he head of the Holy Office) is at the most as valid as his, for God's sake, each pastor and denomonation has a different interpretation while 1.5 billion of Catholics have only one.
 
Thank GOD literally that there was a man brave enough to stand up to the Pope and hierachy of Rome and risk being beheaded to translate the Bible into German. Of course the Guttenburg press had just been invented allowing Martin's translated Bible from Latin into German to be printed and the rest is HISTORY! Read about it, then study GOD's WORD and then tell me one good reason why anyone should pray a single word to Mary!
 
Because she's the mother of Jesus, she was blessed by God with the most important role afterJesus among the humans.
 
BTW: Luther was a devoute of the Virgin Mary
 
BTW II: The prayer we call Hail Mary is in the Bible:
 
Quote Luke 1:28. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace,  the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
 
BLESSED ARE THOUGH AMONG WOMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
And here you can find more:
 
Quote Luke 1:43 "But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luke 1:42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! [Mary is pre-eminent of all women]

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!" [holy and no sin]

Luke 1:48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against
2:35 "(yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."
[intercession]

John 2:1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.
2:2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
2:3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, "They have no wine."
2:4 Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come."
2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Whatever He says to you, do it."
[Mary as intercessor]

 
Read your Bible...No well, you have made your own version changing the original text with a watered text of course in some issues. Wink
 
But again it's not the fault of the Lutherans who honestly believe in this.
 
I stand behind my religion because I have educated myself on many religions. I don't sit back and rely on what my family upbringing was; Buddha is dead, Mohammed is dead and a wacked out pedophile anyway,
 
YOU SOUND LIKE AN ARROGANT BIGOT (Not saying you are), you want to believe your analysis and truth is the only one, I have the most of respects for Mohammed, Buddah, The Dalai Lama, etc because they all are Holy Men who devoted their life to God and/or goodnes, if you can't do the same you're atempting to what Jesus said "Love your neighbor as youn love yourself" 
 
 aliens are not going to save man but Jesus proved through HISTORIC ACCOUNTS WITNESSED BY THOUSANDS that He was who He said He was and what happened in my life April 18th 2004 proved to me that He is the Son of God and I will stand in the Kingdom of Heaven with Him one day.
 
Well, I never mentioned aliens, but what happens to you is between you and God or between you and your Imagination, I'm nobody to judge your beliefs. 
 
And Mary, as good a person as she was, was still a sinner and can no more hear my prayers and my dogs can.
 
So you're comparing the mother of your God with a dog?
 
You're sick, no son of woman would allow anybody to insult his mother, Jesus is God and man, I don't believe he is pleased with your comparisons.
 
God hears me, Jesus hears me and no I don't think the Pope is the Anti-christ . . . . but I do believe we are in the last 20 years before the rapture and I believe the anti-christ is alive today!
 
What are your basis? What secret code tells you that?
 
Since the XV Century people have been annoubncing the end of the days...well all of them are dead and the world is Ok.
 
Yeah, I'll be all the fanatic I can be for my King, my Saviour and my Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God!  I would be proud for people to see me as a fanatic for the King and I'm sure Jesus and God the Father would be proud of me as well. It only reminds me of the song by DC Talk, Jesus Freak:
 
Did God told you that he's proud of you by the red phone you have at your bedroom?
 
That's the problem, with people who try to tell us they know what God wants and who he is proud about.
 
Again I fully respect your beliefs as any other belief, as I respect the believer and the non believer as long he/she is a moral and honest person, but don't mess with my religion if you don't know what you're talking about please.
 
Iván
  


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 09 2007 at 00:40
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2007 at 00:46
Does this discussion have ANYTHING to do with prog? I mean, I came looking for some music poll, and I get a theology class. Please move this to where it belongs. And it's not now that it's like that: from the start, what the hell has a band member finding God have ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC?
 
It's funny to see how religion causes more fights than it amends....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2007 at 00:57
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Does this discussion have ANYTHING to do with prog? I mean, I came looking for some music poll, and I get a theology class. Please move this to where it belongs. And it's not now that it's like that: from the start, what the hell has a band member finding God have ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC?}
 
I been asking the same thing for two days T.
 
It's funny to see how religion causes more fights than it amends....
 
No T, fanaticism does, I gave my honest opinion, not about Christian Rock but also about Catholic Rock and a preacher joined the Forum to talk about anything except Prog, all his posts are about Evangelism.
 
A guy who says Mohammed is a paedophile without understanding the culture in which he was raised, a guy  who attacks Buddah, a guy  who compared the mother of God with his dogs...THAT SOUNDS LIKE  BIGOTRY pure and simple.
 
Or you are with his understanding of reluigion or you are surely wrong and doom to hell.
 
That's what I'm against, this is why some people is against Religion.
 
Sorry for the long post, but as I defend my religion when attacked I defend the right of people to believe in whatever God he wants or don't believe at all.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 09 2007 at 00:59
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2007 at 01:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Does this discussion have ANYTHING to do with prog? I mean, I came looking for some music poll, and I get a theology class. Please move this to where it belongs. And it's not now that it's like that: from the start, what the hell has a band member finding God have ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE MUSIC?}
 
I been asking the same thing for two days T.
 
It's funny to see how religion causes more fights than it amends....
 
No T, fanaticism does, I gave my honest opinion, not about Christian Rock but also about Catholic Rock and a preacher joined the Forum to talk about anything except Prog, all his posts are about Evangelism.
 
A guy who says Mohammed is a paedophile without understanding the culture in which he was raised, a guy  who attacks Buddah, a guy  who compared the mother of God with his dogs...THAT SOUNDS LIKE  BIGOTRY pure and simple.
 
Or you are with his understanding of reluigion or you are surely wrong and doom to hell.
 
That's what I'm against, this is why some people is against Religion.
 
Sorry for the long post, but as I defend my religion when attacked I defend the right of people to believe in whatever God he wants or don't believe at all.
 
Iván
 
I knew I had an answer coming to me... I knew it...LOL
 
I agree 100% with everything.
 
Admin, take this poll out of here please. Music is the least important element in this discussion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2007 at 01:10
T, you deserved a response and an excuse, I didn't wanted to turn this into a Religious Poll, there are many already and I avoided all except one.
 
I gave my opinion I think that Religious Propagabnda (Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Hare Krishna -well that one improved Rock but it wasn't propaganda purely-) destroy Rock.
 
Rock is ART, pleasure for the ears, Religion is personal believe and philosophy, as long as you don't use art as a vehicle for propaganda it's OK, but when you start telling the rest of the world that they are ignorants, heretics and will burn in hell, you ruin music.
 
SORRY AGAIN but threads take own life.
 
Agree with The T....PLEASE MOVE THIS THREAD
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 09 2007 at 01:11
            
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