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Topic ClosedWho are the current "real innovators"
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Sckxyss View Drop Down
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Points: 1319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 17:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Could you please give some examples, and quote the arguments in full (to avoid decontextualisation)? 
 
Here you have one:
 
Originally posted by Sckxyss Sckxyss wrote:

 As far as I've heard, "weird RIO music" (along with some extreme/tech and other non-symphonic prog) is the only music that is innovating at this time. This is fact. Whether or not that makes it good or not is entirely subjective.

Served.
 
Iván
 
Read my second paragraph. You know, the one you didn't quote.
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 17:03
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Talisma

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

In all of the neo- and retro- threads, there is often reference to new bands in progressive rock who are "genuinely" progressive, and do not in any way refer to the older formulas of the genre...can anyone recommend a few?



What exactly is wrong with that anyway?


Absolutely nothing, hence my point.
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 17:02
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Could you please give some examples, and quote the arguments in full (to avoid decontextualisation)?


Oh, there are literally thousands of them...

The first post here, mainly targeting The Flower Kings:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49938

There was also a thread, which I can't find, discussing something to do with the "Transatlantic Problem". Which is especially odd to me, as I find the only real retro thing about Transatlantic are their Beatles references, which are really done in a spirit of tribute rather than emulation...
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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:59
*waits impatiently for Rocktopus or the Baldies to arrive on the scene*
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:57
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Could you please give some examples, and quote the arguments in full (to avoid decontextualisation)? 
 
Here you have one:
 
Originally posted by Sckxyss Sckxyss wrote:

 As far as I've heard, "weird RIO music" (along with some extreme/tech and other non-symphonic prog) is the only music that is innovating at this time. This is fact. Whether or not that makes it good or not is entirely subjective.

Served.
 
Iván
            
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Sckxyss View Drop Down
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Points: 1319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:52

I don't know what you symphheads are pining about. Some people like innovation and originality in their music; some couldn't care less. Does that make either group more correct? I don't think so. As far as I've heard, "weird RIO music" (along with some extreme/tech and other non-symphonic prog) is the only music that is innovating at this time. This is fact. Whether or not that makes it good or not is entirely subjective. I enjoy a lot of avant-garde music myself, but it's not because they're innovating. I like the music. To say that it has no musical value and is the equivalent of standing there and giving the finger is just ignorant.

Also, it's obvious that almost every new development in music is derived from past ideas, but that doesn't mean it's not innovative. There's a clear difference between this and making new versions of 70s and 80s symphonic prog. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, though! Ying Yang
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:51
Talisma

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

In all of the neo- and retro- threads, there is often reference to new bands in progressive rock who are "genuinely" progressive, and do not in any way refer to the older formulas of the genre...can anyone recommend a few?



What exactly is wrong with that anyway?


Edited by Slartibartfast - November 15 2008 at 16:54
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 38883 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:35
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

In all of the neo- and retro- threads, there is often reference to new bands in progressive rock who are "genuinely" progressive, and do not in any way refer to the older formulas of the genre...can anyone recommend a few?



Could you please give some examples, and quote the arguments in full (to avoid decontextualisation)?  Being genuinely progressive does not equal not referring to the older formulas of the genre (or being truly original, not that you said that).  Being progressive means moving forward -- one builds on past developments.  Music is not born in a vacuum, unless it's my Hoover Suite which was born in a vacuum cleaner.  Of course some bands are less generic than others (break genre conventions more).  I can not think of any new bands, or old ones, that do not " in any way refer to the older formulas of the genre" or genres.  I don't think of Prog as a distinct genre anyway.  Prog brought in the influence of many styles of music, and that's a factor in its progressive approach.


Edited by Logan - November 15 2008 at 16:50
Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:34
Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

I'm just happy to see the retro fans rising to overthrow their avant oppressors ApproveLOL


It's possible to be on both sides. Wink


Well, your playlist impressively has Marillion, Mars Volta, Magma, and Genesis -- that does give you some good credibility! Perhaps you could be a diplomat and settle the dispute once and for all!
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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:29
Alex plays for both teams!
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:29
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

I'm just happy to see the retro fans rising to overthrow their avant oppressors ApproveLOL


It's possible to be on both sides. Wink
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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:23
I'm just happy to see the retro fans rising to overthrow their avant oppressors ApproveLOL
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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:19
*takes out popcorn*

This could be a lot of fun.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:16
I recommend this people to listen a bit of Classical, Bach is called the father of music because he influenced everybody after him.
 
The racist Wagner was influenced by the Jewish Mendelsohn (Listen both Wedding Marches), the Romantic Musicians were influenced by the Classic, the Classic by the Baroque, the Baroque by Renaissance and of course Renaissance musicians by Medieval artists.
 
The only original musician was the caveman who hit two stones for the first time, after that...everybody is influenced by somebody.
 
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Iván
            
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:09
Ivan, you've summed up my bitterness perfectly.

It makes me want to form an avant garde band just so we can gather all the fans, then do a show where we just walk on stage and give everyone the middle finger for an hour and a half and then leave. They will all think we are genius! And we will have given them the message we want them to hear at the same time!
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:06
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

In all of the neo- and retro- threads, there is often reference to new bands in progressive rock who are "genuinely" progressive, and do not in any way refer to the older formulas of the genre...can anyone recommend a few?

 

Don't worry John, seems that for some people Prog is limited to RIO bands.

If you play Symphonic Prog, no matter how original you are,. you will have some reminiscences to the 70's, because the bands of the 70's mostly played Symphonic...So if you want to be a Prog artist, you can't play Symphonic Wink

Neo Prog of course is forbiden, because you would be cloning clones. Angry
 
If you play Folk...Hey, you're influenced by Jethro Tull, so you can't play Folk if you want to be a Prog artist, you are a cheesy regressive artist.

Well, there's always Psyche...false, then you are trying to play like Pink Floyd or The Doors, so no, if you want to be a Prog artist, you can't play Psyche - Space unless you are unoriginal. 

Fusion...No, Miles Davis Clones.....Heavy Prog...Neither, because you are trying to play like Led Zeppelin, Rush and Uriah Heep....Ahh good old Prog Metal...No for God's sake, you're cloning Dream Theater.

So if you want to be a Progressive rock Artist, you have to play Avant, the weirder, the best according to some people. Doesn't matter if you don't like Avant, RIO or Post Rock or you think it's just a collection of random sounds in most cases, if you want to be a Prog artist, you have to play Avant, RIO or Post Rock.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 15 2008 at 16:09
            
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jplanet View Drop Down
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 16:01
Ah! A very interesting read! So, the answer to my question is:

Kayo Dot and Mars Volta.

Noted!
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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 15:41
jplanet, you should check out a thread that I made a little while ago

Originality


You might find the post and the reactions to the post pretty interesting Wink
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 15:19
Opeth - the jagged, atonal and start-stop riffing on Watershed is really new as far as the prog metal I know.

As fa as anything totally new, it's not even on the radar for me. And as far as composition, I doubt much of anything is significantly new.
My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2008 at 15:14
Agreeing with King By Tor and epictetus1, I should be honest and say that my question isn't without an ulterior motive. It seems that typically the bands that people see as "truly" progressive tend to just use a lot of atonal or freeform elements, which date back much farther than even progressive rock...

I'm still curious, I'd love to be proven wrong, if there are, indeed, a whole bunch of bands out there that are truly breaking new ground...And by that I don't just mean bands who sound "weird", because those guys are usually just emulating King Crimson or Frank Zappa...
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