| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Vibrationbaby 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
|
 Posted: February 19 2009 at 10:12 |
 crimson87 wrote:
In your opinion:
- What are the principal atributes a masterpiece must have?
- Do you consider that few albums deserve this label?
- Which is the genre that produces the most of them?
|
This sounds like an essay question on a university mid-term. Are we going to be graded on our answers? I haven`t read any of the responses because I don`t want to be acused of cheating by the invigilators. 1. A masterpiece must have depth, ambiguity and above all virtuosity but not necessarily technical virtuosity. It must have atmosphere and elements which draw emotion from the listener. It must inspire more than one listen and with each listen new discoveries come to light. 2. Focus - Hamburger Concerto Omega - Suite Emerson Lake & Palmer - Tarkus Yes - Close To The Edge Jane - Windows Pink Floyd - Echoes Grobschnitt - Solar Music ( I could go on but I have to concentrate on the next question ) 3. After classical music in all it`s eras and forms Art/rock Progressive rock.
|
 |
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
|
Posted: February 19 2009 at 11:36 |
I'm glad someone came up with the original meaning of the term masterpiece, which is getting confused with the term "Magnum Opus," which an artists ultimate work.
I think masterpiece is generally used to mean a master craftsman creating a work with the peak of their talent. Not all of a master's work is a masterpiece, but a master will likely produce many masterpieces. Artists "knocking at the door" of being masters might produce a work worthy of the title, but a mediocre one is unlikely to even if it is their best work.
Masterpieces can be described as others have done, which is subjective, and what defines a master is subjective as well.
The pieces I rate 5 stars here truly are on a higher level in how they move me in some way. Many are far from flawless, but all transport me, and all tend to retain that ability as years pass.
|
|
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
|
|
Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
|
Posted: February 19 2009 at 13:09 |
|
So would the Mona Lisa be a masterpiece?
According to your definition here Girls Girls Girls by Motley Crue could be a masterpiece.
|
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
|
Posted: February 19 2009 at 14:22 |
Again, mixing up terms
Girls Girls Girls may well be Motley Crue's magnum opus, their ultimate work. However, as I don't consider them masters of anything but pretty darn good entertainers, nothing they've made is a masterpiece.
|
|
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
|
|
Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
|
Posted: February 20 2009 at 09:51 |
|
So the work by the artists you`ve listed you consider masterpieces?
|
|
Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
|
Posted: February 20 2009 at 11:03 |
Absolutely.
Every single one of these artist are masters in the true sense of the word. All have lesser work. But each of these albums, or at minimum certain tracks, are true masterpieces. In that list you have two of the best bass players to have lived, probably the best guitarist to have lived, almost certainly the best banjo player to have ever lived, the best active folkie, and one of the most talented vocalists of recent times. True masters, mindblowing pieces of work.
Watch this......
Edited by Negoba - February 20 2009 at 11:05
|
|
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
|
|
moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18993
|
Posted: February 20 2009 at 14:45 |
Hi,
I think the answer to this goes something like this ...
... why do we consider the 9th symphony a masterpiece?
... why do we ... blah and blah
The answer is that the musical piece left behind an indelible stamp on your body of inner experiences. And that can be good and bad, I suppose, and in general when it comes to musical standards, they end up being considered masterpieces.
Now, you don't have to see "Amadeus" to realize that during that time, a lot of his stuff was not considered the great masterpieces that they are considered today ... and the same goes for Debussy, Chopin and so many others ....
I, personally, do not use the term. If someone can get an orgasm off the 9th, I know that Keith can get his off the Endless Enigma, and I personally can get mine off No Caipira ... you get the idea ... and that would suggest that the term is really an academic exercise in defining what appears to be better or best.
I don't think that Stravinsky is better than Mozart. Or vice versa. I don't think that Genesis is better than Kurt Weill ...
All in all it is an expression, and as such it has a value to our inner experiences ... I happen to think that "Apocalyptic Bore" is one of the most important musical masterpieces from Amon Duul 2 ... I simply do not think that they ever got that close or better ... or more important ... and many folks don't think so ...
When you take the opinions out ... what do you have?
People .... legs, arms ... and in this case with some musical instruments. Unless you are taking measurements for whatever reason, why is one better than the other? We're all brothers and sisters and friends and the experiences we share in music is one of the grandest experiences in life ... sure Pink Floyd was a masterpiece at the Hollywood Bowl in 1972 ... but does that mean that I'm not, or any other music out there is not?
NO.
|
|
Matthew T
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 01 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 5291
|
Posted: September 17 2009 at 17:05 |
For an album to get to this status for me it takes time and most importantly repetition. If I am still playing an album 3 months after I purchased it and still it keeps popping up on my play list throughout the rest of the year and I am still loving the album and still hearing the odd new thing throughout it will be in with a real good chance. This of course is my view but all my personal masterpieces are fairly old albums. Of the more modern ones ( now remember this is my view) but Nevermind,NIN ,Pretty Hate Machine,Opeth...Still Life or Blackwater Park ( 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other there), Joe Henry......Scar or Civilians,Tom Waits ...Mule Variations ( He has a few on my list but this is his latest for me) and there are others as well.With PT the ball is still in the air even after all this time but my favs are Sky Moved Sideways,Signify.Lightbulb Sun and Deadwing. That is one of the reasons ( not that I do many ) I am loathe to review new albums and make definite comments on it but so far for me the prog album that has really grabbed me this year was The Decemberists and it is still to early for me to even think about what rating to give the new PT as I have only heard it about 5 times in its entireity and I do like it but compared to the others that I mentioned not quite as much so far ,but you never know
|
|
Matt
|
|
NecronCommander
Special Collaborator
Prog Metal Team
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
|
Posted: September 17 2009 at 20:45 |
|
Here's a newbie's opinion:
A masterpiece, be it a song or album as a whole, should represent what the combined elements of a genre, when expertly composed and articulated, can be used to show the idyllic image of the genre as a whole. For example, on a single song basis, I would consider Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing" a masterpiece of progressive rock. The long track length, incredibly dynamic and technical structure, strong, emotional riffs, use of ambient elements, use of instruments like the synth and acoustic guitar with distorted electric, variating heavy and light, floaty sections, conceptual lyrics, and excellent vocal work all mesh together wonderfully for a wholly beautiful and satisfying feat of musical prowess. It exemplifies what prog is, at its best.
But I think that the most important aspect of a masterpiece is that it doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. Do I think that certain elements or parts of Deadwing could be tweaked slightly to make the song even more to my liking? Yes, but then it loses the most important aspect of a masterpiece: that it is the truest manifestation of the artist's contribution to the genre, a definitive statement of the best expression of the genre humanly possible. Anything else would not be the artist's true work, and thus not a masterpiece. So while it may not be inherently perfect in every single way, it's as damn close as humanly possible.
|
|
King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2784
|
Posted: September 17 2009 at 21:02 |
crimson87 wrote:
In your opinion:
- What are the principal atributes a masterpiece must have?
- Do you consider that few albums deserve this label?
- Which is the genre that produces the most of them?
|
A masterpiece must make my brain jizz all over the inside of my skull.
Yeah.
Classical, but my favorite music piece/album ever is jazz (Kind of Blue by Miles Davis). Prog has it's share of masterpieces too (Supper's Ready, Close to the Edge, Man-Erg, Schooldays (GG) Starless, Us and Them, All of the Above, Even Less (these are masterpieces for me anyway)).
|
|
Tengent
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 17 2009
Location: Evansville, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 119
|
Posted: September 17 2009 at 21:44 |
|
IMO a piece of music that I wouldn't make a single change to if it were my own. (perfect)
Edited by Tengent - September 17 2009 at 21:44
|
|
TheLastBaron
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 07 2009
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 206
|
Posted: September 18 2009 at 01:37 |
|
That's a hard thing to define concretely. There a lot of albums that I really love and will think of masterpiece when I first get into them and than as time goes on I will notice imperfections that I didn't immediately pick up. I think that for an album to be a true masterpiece it has to grab you firmly, be very enjoyable and deep, be very creative and technically impressive and hold all those things for years, To me it has to a have a sense of timelessness to, something that doesn't feel dated. Yet there are some albums that I've considered masterpieces that don't have all those traits, so who really knows.
|
|
" Men are not prisoners of fate, but prisoners of their own minds." - FDR
|
|
The Sleepwalker
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 15141
|
Posted: September 23 2009 at 11:40 |
I think the term "masterpiece" is very subjective. For example, I think Pink Floyd's The Final Cut is a true masterpiece, while others see it as a bad and boring album. It all depends on what album fits in with your musical tastes.
What are the principal atributes a masterpiece must have? - It must fit in with someone's musical taste perfectly. Therefore I think an album has to be unique and has to stand out. For my personal taste this means that an album has to be diverse, pretty much flawless, unique and I will more likely find it a masterpiece if it has lots and lots of emotion in it.
Do you consider that few albums deserve this label? - Yes I think only few albums deserve such a title. An album can be fantastic, but that doesn't make it an exceptional experience that has that special feel to it.
Which is the genre that produces the most of them? - The subgenre on this site that contains most masterpieces IMO is Eclectic prog, mainly because of one band, which is VDGG. Still Life and Pawn Hearts (and probably Godbluff) are among the best albums ever made, and I see them as masterpieces. Pink Floyd has made three of them too (WYWH, Final Cut, Animals) and those are probably the only "true" masterpieces I know... though some albums are very close to being masterpieces.
|
|
|
|
Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34100
|
Posted: September 23 2009 at 12:42 |
|
for my part a Masterpiece record moust have elemtents I enjoy in music I listen to, so that will say that for an album to qualify masterpiece status by my ear there are some things it needs
1. Good constructed songs, with melodies, nice flow and contrasts
2. for me the second moust impotant thiing for a masterpiece album is a dynamics use of instruments (the way the instruments are used and how strong or soft they are playd) and sections inside a song.
3. diferent moods is importan: like ethereal, lush, airy, cold, warm and intence.
4. exploration of different genres, and styles. (also in one song like Suppers Ready, Bohemian Rapsody etc)
5. and last climax a good opener and a strong ending exemples are Three Friends by Gentle Giant, Crime of the Century by Supertramp.
|
|
SonicDeath10
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 282
|
Posted: September 27 2009 at 23:02 |
For me, a masterpiece is an album that's really really really really good. Nothing more or less. You just know.
What genre makes the most? That's a loaded question. You want me to say prog. I'd say prog has about twenty true masterpieces. The rest are paste.  |
|
"Good evening hippies." Bobby Boy
|
|
Pangaea
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 17 2009
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 46
|
Posted: September 30 2009 at 11:21 |
Here we go with all the defining BS again.
I like SonicDeath's definition: 'a masterpiece is an album that's really really really really good'
|
|
sealchan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 179
|
Posted: October 01 2009 at 17:05 |
NecronCommander wrote:
Here's a newbie's opinion:
A masterpiece, be it a song or album as a whole, should represent what the combined elements of a genre, when expertly composed and articulated, can be used to show the idyllic image of the genre as a whole. For example, on a single song basis, I would consider Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing" a masterpiece of progressive rock. The long track length, incredibly dynamic and technical structure, strong, emotional riffs, use of ambient elements, use of instruments like the synth and acoustic guitar with distorted electric, variating heavy and light, floaty sections, conceptual lyrics, and excellent vocal work all mesh together wonderfully for a wholly beautiful and satisfying feat of musical prowess. It exemplifies what prog is, at its best.
But I think that the most important aspect of a masterpiece is that it doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. Do I think that certain elements or parts of Deadwing could be tweaked slightly to make the song even more to my liking? Yes, but then it loses the most important aspect of a masterpiece: that it is the truest manifestation of the artist's contribution to the genre, a definitive statement of the best expression of the genre humanly possible. Anything else would not be the artist's true work, and thus not a masterpiece. So while it may not be inherently perfect in every single way, it's as damn close as humanly possible.
|
To dovetail off of this...
A masterpiece is understood in four contexts:
1. The overall work of the artist or artists involved
2. The type of art that the work is being considered as an example or exemplar of
3. The degree of skill involved in its creation
4. The community which collectively recognizes the above
So while a masterpiece is a subjective evaluation it also can have its objective qualities. When a community that values art or a type of art comes together they may more or less help to define objectively the value of a given work. A work's value, after all, is instantiated in a work's appreciator. The individual subjective response is the root of any evaluation of something. In other words, no one will value a thing if no one values it.
So when those who study and otherwise value art come together and discuss the various qualities of a work more or less agree that such and such work by such and such artist is a particularly fine example of such and such, then you have a community which has identified a masterpiece.
|
|
mrgd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 02 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 822
|
Posted: October 05 2009 at 00:00 |
Damnation ! This thread didn't die . Here . Let's see if this [ a post from mrgd ] helps......... 
I mean, it's just great that you guys are putting up all these wonderfully esoteric like criteria in all seriousness . Bravo people - it's mind numbing stuff !
I prefer Pangaea's reference - prefaced by the observation that if there is any such thing in the world of progressive music [ which the cynic in me doubts ], it's probably a piece of music that a lot of people really, really, really like for a long time......and not just a little bit either.
And one thing it isn't, is about 98% of ***** albums or releases awarded on PA..... Sorry.
|
|
Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd
|
|
NJCat_11
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 07 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 178
|
Posted: December 07 2009 at 00:37 |
|
A Masterpiece is an album or song that is perfectly balanced between its intricate complexities and simple grooves, epic "wall of sound" guitar riffs and blissfully tranquil acoustics, preaching plot devises (for concepts) and badass sing-along lyrics that you don't necessarily have to decipher. Of course, the album or song MUST showcase musicianship of the highest degree (something we're all accustomed to by now). Most importantly, however, regardless of how many times you've listened to it, you feel personally insignificant when compared to the work itself. It moves you.
Ex.
Dream Theater - Images and Words, Awake
Psychotic Waltz - A Social Grace
Check out Bigelf's "Cheat The Gallows" as well.
It may not qualify as a masterpiece, but it's pretty damn awesome.
|
|
"We are Defenders of the Faith"
- Rob Halford
|
|
Time Signature
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 20 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 362
|
Posted: December 09 2009 at 11:57 |
|
It must be a song that I really, really, really, really like. There are no formal criteria for me.
|
|
This user has left the PA fora, but will occasionally post reviews so as to support artists.
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
What defines a masterpiece?
