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akamaisondufromage View Drop Down
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Points: 6797 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:57
I kind of like it but to me it's the beginning of the end.  There must be some misunderstanding there must be some kind of mistake (Copywrite Slarti) oooooooooooooobollocks
 
drum machines I like but not for Genesis.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:38
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK you totally misspelled it.  It's spelled Slarti. LOL  Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me.  I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.

Nicely done. LOL

I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked. Tongue

Misunderstanding and another song on the album were taken from the list of songs from Phils first solo album. They actually turned down In The Air Tonight.

I did not know that.  I'd trade those off. LOL
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:13
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK you totally misspelled it.  It's spelled Slarti. LOL  Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me.  I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.

Nicely done. LOL

I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked. Tongue

Misunderstanding and another song on the album were taken from the list of songs from Phils first solo album. They actually turned down In The Air Tonight.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:10
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK you totally misspelled it.  It's spelled Slarti. LOL  Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me.  I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.

Nicely done. LOL

I waited in the rain for hours and it still sucked. Tongue
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Points: 956 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 08:35
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by berger_king berger_king wrote:

I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.

I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy.

 
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.

There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. 
Sorry but I cannot quite agree with your comment of a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.....
 
There are many fans that went on to enjoy " Shapes" all the way to " Calling All Stations", even Collins solo works and did not care for the returning of fox head costumes or Slipperman outifits that made it almost impossible for Gabriel to sing on stage. Those fans loved that era just as much, they just did not get so hung up about change. I would argue that IT was poor but still enjoyable but it did not stop fans eagerly purchasing their next studio release. I in fact still argue that WCD or CAS are very much progressive still
 
So maybe that was a self imploded breakdown of one group of Genesis fansWink
 
I'm agree with that, and that's my case. A Genesis fan since Tresspass till CAS, and the main thing is that they always did something different than a simple pop hit. They were progressive but not repeating themselves. If you take a look on some Genesis fan sites (The Movement for example) you cann see many fans (I don't know if the most, but not a minority) that enjoy all the band history and not only the early times. 
 
About DUKE I think that was a natural evolving. If the band didn't moved to a more commercial side, they were dissapeared at this time. The main change was with Abacab, and the principal instigator, in my opinion, was Mike Rutherford. He started to like more and more the rough guitar sound. He started in In that quiet earth, then put something in Down and Out and Deep in the Motherlode, then Turn it on again, and finally the riifs took a big place in Abacab, of course with the agree of Tony and Phil. When they knew that they can write succesful tracks, they got confidence and couldn't stop, specially when Phil exploded as a big rock star. But always they did something different, in every albums, and I think that was mainly Tony Banks.
 
Duke is a good album, not better than ATTWT as an integral piece but with stronger moments. Duke Travels is the best track, but Behind the lines, Duchess, Turn it on again, Heathaze, are really good too. Misunderstanding is excessively pop to my taste and Please don`t ask is Phil Collins and not Genesis (musically too simple and wiht not enough room to the others to collaborate)
 
About the conceptual side of the album, as other prog colleague said before, I think that the concept exceeds the called "Duke Suite", and seems to be that some kind of relationship between Albert and Duchess (as Phil said in the Lyceum DVD) is not restricted to the suite, appears flying over the overall album.


Edited by genbanks - July 31 2010 at 15:41
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Points: 4338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 17:14
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK you totally misspelled it.  It's spelled Slarti. LOL  Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me.  I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.

Nicely done. LOL


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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 15:37
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by berger_king berger_king wrote:

I'm sure this may have been discussed to death before but I am new here and curious... how many of you as a whole would view 'Duke' as a turning point in Genesis' career? Most opinions I've seen seem to label this as the album before things start to really 'fall apart' prog-wise and they become a lot more pop-oriented. I do enjoy aspects of later albums but 'Duke' was my first major exposure to the band. I'd heard stuff from all eras before but this was the one that really drew me in.

I consider 'Duke' to be not so much a turning point as maybe one last stab at their old glory. It did usher in the pop-era but it was not overwhelming so. In fact I think it features some of the best playing in the band's career, particularly from Collins on the opener and Mike Rutherford on both bass and guitar throughout. Personally I think both the albums that came before this were no where near as good, on any level, and that you can't really say things declined after this, they had already started declining as soon as Hackett exited. I see the career as peaks and valleys and not one clear jumping off point for the loss of the 'old sound'. But for my money 'Duke' is the last stab at the band attempting to go full-tilt in delivering everything that made them so good, commercial or not. I don't think they were ever as progressive again, and likewise for my money they never wrote a better pop song than 'Misunderstanding' either. It's an interesting dichotomy.

 
With repect I must add that during the time of it's release or even on Then we were Three, musicians everywhere were disappointed in the musical direction that Genesis were going. During that time period most musicians who were offended by DUKE had already been touring and performing Genesis material. Such as bands do today with their tribute concepts. It was the generation of kids that hailed from the late 70's and 80's that held open arms for DUKE. It was such a long time ago but, I remember all the seasoned musicians having a beef with it.

There were 2 seperate mentalities on both bookends. It's been that way for decades. When Genesis performed their later commercial material, older fans of early Genesis would exit out the doors and smoke cigars? For this to make any sense whatsoever, one must take into account the many years that Genesis travelled the road as a prog band with theatrical concepts. This is how people knew them basically and if you were to just come along with a more commerical sounding effort it would be a little too extreme. Originally, what was known as a simple difference in musical preference became a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans. 
Sorry but I cannot quite agree with your comment of a social breakdown with the 2 different groups of Genesis fans.....
 
There are many fans that went on to enjoy " Shapes" all the way to " Calling All Stations", even Collins solo works and did not care for the returning of fox head costumes or Slipperman outifits that made it almost impossible for Gabriel to sing on stage. Those fans loved that era just as much, they just did not get so hung up about change. I would argue that IT was poor but still enjoyable but it did not stop fans eagerly purchasing their next studio release. I in fact still argue that WCD or CAS are very much progressive still
 
So maybe that was a self imploded breakdown of one group of Genesis fansWink
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 15:26
OK you totally misspelled it.  It's spelled Slarti. LOL  Cohesiveness doesn't particularly matter for me.  I've read a lot of opinions critical of it, but I liked the album with the exception of Misunderstanding which was definitely some kind of mistake unless you consider the path the band went on in subsequent albums.

Edited by Slartibartfast - July 30 2010 at 15:27
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Points: 4338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 15:18
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Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Thumbs Down An inferior album, to me. Derivitive, formulaic, watered-down Genesis-by-numbers.
(Though I actually quite like Misunderstanding & Turn It On again as well-crafted, catchy pop songs -- heck, I also liked Follow You Follw Me.)
 
I had it on vinyl when it came out -- have never replaced it on CD. It always gets a lot of praise here, though -- maybe I should give it another go. (But I don't expect much magic.)

I'll say it again, if you go CD go for the one with the bonus DVD.  I'd like to add that while I really disliked Misunderstanding, Turn It On appealed to me a lot as well as Follow You Follow Me.

I have to agree Brian (or is it Bryan  I keep forgettingLOL) Duke grew on me. 
 I didn't like it at first but I could tell much more cohesive of an album than TTWT but it grew on me.  Simpler yes as were everything in the 80's but still enough of the old style to hold my attention.  Heathhaze by Banks is stunning and will remind people of other classics Banks wrote like One for the Vine although not quite the epic in length but certainly in the melody.

 What got to me was the performance live when they played almost all of the Duke suite to start the show (Except the last 2 numbers which came later).  I also was able to see it at the 400 seat Roxy club in Hollywood as well as the 15,000 seat Long Beach Arena so I had full contrast.  The bonus disk has a part of the concert in video from that tour. This was the last good Genesis. 


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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 14:53
No effort there, just a copy and paste.  I know not of Lee Abrams, so not able to hate or dislike, whatever his role was.  So many prog artists tried to make a success at doing commercial appealing stuff, which was a damn shame as there was a certain degree of success attainable making non-commercial music with integrity.  
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 11:34
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I don't know if this helps:
  All songs by Ray, Derek and Kerry
  except "Friends" written by John
  and "Take Me" lyrics co-written by John and Derek
  Published by Alucard Pub. Ltd./Chrysalis Music Ltd.

  A Gentle Giant Production
  Engineered by Paul Northfield at Ramport Studios, Battersea
  - assisted by Neil.
  Maison Rouge, Fulham.
  Scorpio Sound Studios, Euston
  - assisted by Steve.
  Remix at Scorpio Sound Studios.
  Recorded April/May, 1978.
  Copyright Alucard/Friday Music.

  Cover concept: Ray, Tanner, Eve and Pils Lager
  Front cover illustration: Peter Owen
  Back cover photography: Gered Mankowitz
  Equipment: Michael Ambrose
  Acoustic guitars courtesy of Norman Guitars, Quebec, Canada.

Note: "Ray, Tanner, Eve, and Pils Lager" means Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nicknamed Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer. That's Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nickname Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer.


Thank you for your efforts. I appreciate that. I was just on the phone with a proggie and he told me the guy's name was Lee Abrams, An executive radio consulant ....like radio programming but on a nation wide scale.He persuaded Gentle Giant to sound more commerically viable. He was part of the radio scene in the late 70's  when radio went from playing obscure tracks from a prog band on an FM station to playing hits. He was a contributor to the destruction of free form underground rock radio and was hated if, not still hated by proggers in America. 
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 09:05
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Thumbs Down An inferior album, to me. Derivitive, formulaic, watered-down Genesis-by-numbers.
(Though I actually quite like Misunderstanding & Turn It On again as well-crafted, catchy pop songs -- heck, I also liked Follow You Follw Me.)
 
I had it on vinyl when it came out -- have never replaced it on CD. It always gets a lot of praise here, though -- maybe I should give it another go. (But I don't expect much magic.)

I'll say it again, if you go CD go for the one with the bonus DVD.  I'd like to add that while I really disliked Misunderstanding, Turn It On appealed to me a lot as well as Follow You Follow Me.


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 30 2010 at 14:54
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Points: 1305 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 02:19
it was when the band really came into their own. Commercially and artistically.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 01:25
Thumbs Down An inferior album, to me. Derivitive, formulaic, watered-down Genesis-by-numbers.
(Though I actually quite like Misunderstanding & Turn It On again as well-crafted, catchy pop songs -- heck, I also liked Follow You Follw Me.)
 
I had it on vinyl when it came out -- have never replaced it on CD. It always gets a lot of praise here, though -- maybe I should give it another go. (But I don't expect much magic.)


Edited by Peter - July 30 2010 at 01:32
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Points: 30347 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 01:02
Originally posted by berger_king berger_king wrote:

The one thing about Duke that always irked me was the 'reprise' at the end... to me it just seems like 'oh, we're running out of ideas, let's just play this stuff again but we'll throw it all together'. I guess it serves a thematic purpose and that would have been strengthened if the Duke 'suite' remained intact as planned on the album.
ELP used a similar idea some 9 years earlier with Tarkus reprising the opening theme at the end on Aquatarkus. I quite like this.
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Points: 52 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 23:28
Drama, thats what the reprise was about. My first Genesis album I bought in 1976 was TOTT. In '80 it took some time to get used to Duke. By the time they came to Houston in '80 and I saw them, I loved the album. Although technically it was not recorded that well. Passable. I think it was recorded on an 8 track.
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Points: 29 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 16:29
The one thing about Duke that always irked me was the 'reprise' at the end... to me it just seems like 'oh, we're running out of ideas, let's just play this stuff again but we'll throw it all together'. I guess it serves a thematic purpose and that would have been strengthened if the Duke 'suite' remained intact as planned on the album.
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Points: 34099 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 14:27
and Derek Shulman signed Bon Jovi, Slipknot, Dream Theater, what more...NIckelbeck Angry ( I some how  like How You Remind Me), and Pantera.

Edited by aginor - July 29 2010 at 14:27
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I don't know if this helps:
  All songs by Ray, Derek and Kerry
  except "Friends" written by John
  and "Take Me" lyrics co-written by John and Derek
  Published by Alucard Pub. Ltd./Chrysalis Music Ltd.

  A Gentle Giant Production
  Engineered by Paul Northfield at Ramport Studios, Battersea
  - assisted by Neil.
  Maison Rouge, Fulham.
  Scorpio Sound Studios, Euston
  - assisted by Steve.
  Remix at Scorpio Sound Studios.
  Recorded April/May, 1978.
  Copyright Alucard/Friday Music.

  Cover concept: Ray, Tanner, Eve and Pils Lager
  Front cover illustration: Peter Owen
  Back cover photography: Gered Mankowitz
  Equipment: Michael Ambrose
  Acoustic guitars courtesy of Norman Guitars, Quebec, Canada.

Note: "Ray, Tanner, Eve, and Pils Lager" means Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nicknamed Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer. That's Ray Shulman, his wife Barbara (nickname Tanner), someone unknown named Eve, and beer.


Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 14:04
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


 They were'nt the only ones of course, Yes and Asia taking a similar route (although ELP were ahead of the game with Love Beach 2 years earlierWink)

Don't forget Gentle Giant's Giant For A Day.  They almost rebounded with Civilian.


Who was the guy that influenced Gentle Giant to record albums like this? It was like a business venture between him and the Giant. I can't remember his name but,...I sure remember how he was hated.
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